What's new

Cold War

i dont think the soviets had any desire or intention to make afghanistna a better country, but they did something or might have done more if they had the chance in order to show it to the poeple that the soviets were good for them. but there is one fact that peoplle of afghanistan did make a great mistake by fighting the soviets.

Soviet image of an Afghan crowd, Circa 1980. Note the crowd is wearing Western style clothing, with Western hairstyles. Furthermore, note the lack of veils on the women

800px-Afghan_Crowd_Circa_1980.png


Now compare it with the picture below, the common perception of Afghanistan from the mid 90's.

Talibanbeating.jpg
 
.
The unwanted american proxy war in Afghanistan against ex-USSR turned a rapidly progressive country into a stone age relic and most oppressed. For our part of collaboration we are doomed to live for eternity with very anti-Pakistan and pro-India afghanistan. This is my friend reality on ground for our contributions to demise of progressive societ. Today an average Afghan associates images of taliban and destruction with Pakistan and public opinion is not likely to change but regrow in baluchistan. We are bold in complaining about rising Indian influence in Afghanistan without actually realizing the seeds we have sowed for such outcome.
 
.
No, their intentions weren't entirely noble.

Modernisation and socialist reforms was one aim.

They also wanted to expand their influence into central asia.

But the fact still remains that the US today is fighting that same backward ideology that it trained and supported in the 80's - and that is the irony of the whole situation.

Had US not abandoned Afghanistan but funded development the situation would not have worsen today and billions of dollars wasted on war saved. But we dont live in fantasy world either. America had bigger aims to come back for its own abmitions in Central Asia. America wants the same from CA what Russian did. Oil, gas and richies. And for that they had to leave Afghanistan in the hands of same demons they created. :usflag:
 
.
Soviet image of an Afghan crowd, Circa 1980. Note the crowd is wearing Western style clothing, with Western hairstyles. Furthermore, note the lack of veils on the women

800px-Afghan_Crowd_Circa_1980.png


Now compare it with the picture below, the common perception of Afghanistan from the mid 90's.

Talibanbeating.jpg

leaving the burka and other cloths aside, but we made the biggest mistake by fighting the soviets. our days of misery began since that day.
 
.
Really feel how the afghans have suffered in the cold war.

Counteries are like beasts looking after there interests only ..Henery Kissinger
 
. .
cold-war.gif


coldwar4.gif


The Cold War 1960-1991

The alliance system began to unravel in 1959 when Communist insurgents came to power in Cuba, gaining their first foothold in the Western Hemisphere and setting off a chain reaction of crises which came very close to bringing about a full nuclear exchange between the superpowers. A more visible result of the various Cuban crises is that hemispheric unity was shaken as several Latin American countries, principly Mexico, decided that snubbing Cuba was not worth the risk and maintained diplomatic and economic relations despite the objections of the United States.

Meanwhile, the Soviets lost major ground in 1960, when China broke away after bickering over interpretations of Marxist doctrine, taking Albania and North Korea with them. China then tested its first atomic weapon in 1964 and withdrew from the world stage to indulge in the purifying ritual of the Cultural Revolution. About the same time, France decided that it didn't like its foreign policy being dictated by the United States, so it tested its first atomic weapon in 1960, and withdrew from NATO in 1965. Although it was almost certain that the French would be found on the American side in the event of a general European war, until then the French would pursue a foreign policy which was neither pro-Soviet nor pro-American but merely French.

A more substantial defeat for the Americans came with the fall of Indochina to the Communists in 1975. This region was not exactly vital to American interests, but because the United States had fought a major war to prevent this from happening, the stakes were high, and the defeat was horribly demoralizing. The replacement of the pro-American dictatorship in Nicaragua by Communist rebels also depressed American confidence, as did the the fall of the pro-American Shah of Iran in favor of a vehemently anti-western theocracy. In fact, because the Americans had begun the Cold War riding high with so many nations in its corner, just about every subsequent change of regime anywhere in the world sank American influence just a bit lower. By the mid-80s, it appeared that the US was clearly losing the Cold War.

Appearences were deceiving. While the Westen economies prospered despite the military buildups, the cost of maintaining a massive military machine was crippling the inefficient Soviet economy. The attempts at reform came to little, too late, and in 1989, the Soviets were forced to cut loose their East European satellites. In 1991, the constituent republics of the Soviet Union declared their independence and the Soviet Union ceased to exist altogether. The Cold War was over.

Map - Cold War 1960-1991
 
.
No, their intentions weren't entirely noble.

Modernisation and socialist reforms was one aim.

They also wanted to expand their influence into central asia.
Quite a change from your previous comment...

As I remember, the soviets tried to modernise Afghanistan and promote education and equal rights for women.
A typical case of selective memory.

But the fact still remains that the US today is fighting that same backward ideology that it trained and supported in the 80's - and that is the irony of the whole situation.
This imply the US instilled that 'backward ideology' and is utter nonsense. The US provided the weapons, Pakistan provided the corporate training for the mujahedeen and the rest of the ME provided the manpower with emphasis on the religious duty. So which one among the three should rightly be blamed for this 'backward ideology'?

America is reaping what it sowed.
So is the rest of the ME.

USA backed the jihadists and people like Osama Bin Laden.
Osama bin Laden admitted to Robert Fisk, no friend of the US, that he had nothing to do with the US...

Interviews with Osama bin Laden in 1996 by Robert Fisk@Everything2.com
Personally neither I nor my brothers saw evidence of American help.

When the soviets left, America left Afghanistan to rot.

Ironic isn't it?! If the Americans never poked their noses into Afghanistan when the Russians where there then the Russians may have sorted that country out and there wouldn't be Americans dying in Afghanistan today.
So you do believe that the Soviets entered Afghanistan with noble intention and the US created this 'rot'. You need to make up your mind.
 
. .
ColdWarContainment

The Cold War

Cold%20War%20Map.gif

Political Map in the Cold War Era (Encarta)

Cold War is the term used to describe the various political, social and military clashes between the United States and Soviet Union from 1945 to 1991. In the aftermath of World War II, a polarization existed between the worlds’ preeminent superpowers, the United States and the Soviet Union. Differences in ideology created a rift between the capitalist, democratic “West” and the communist “East.” The defeat of Germany and Japan and the devastation of continental Europe created an environment in which Soviet and American influence struggled for supremacy. In addition, the destabilization of traditional European powers led to decolonization and the creation of a new Third World, leading to the formation of potential allies and enemies for both sides.

American Policy and Ideology

The Iron Curtain: Former British Prime Minister Winston Churchill’s “The Sinews of Peace” speech was delivered in Fulton, Missouri in March 1946. "From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic an 'iron curtain' has descended across the Continent. Behind that line lie all the capitals of the ancient states of Central and Eastern Europe...all these famous cities and the populations around them lie in what I must call the Soviet sphere, and all are subject, in one form or another, not only to Soviet influence but to a very high and in some cases increasing measure of control from Moscow," said Churchill. [1] Churchill's allusions created a strong image of a European continent polarized between East and West, with the former dominated by the Soviet Union. In some areas, most notably Germany, a physical barrier did exist, but the strength of the metaphor expanded the concept into ideological terms. Churchill urged for Anglo-American cooperation to combat this threat, and particularly the expansion of the Eastern territory.

Truman Doctrine: When a civil war erupted in Greece in 1947 (a client government of Great Britain), Truman articulated the reasoning behind U.S. intervention: “I believe that it must be the policy of the United States to support free peoples who are resisting attempted subjugation by armed minorities or by outside pressures.” [2] Truman utilized this doctrine by equating these "outside pressures" with the Soviet forces, and immediately sent aid to Greece.

Containment: George Kennan is credited with the introduction of the term containment in the July 1947 issue of Foreign Affairs, in which he stated that American counterforce in the face of Soviet expansion would bring about a “mellowing” in Soviet policy. [2] Journalist Walter Lippmann rejected the practice (“a strategic monstrosity”) in his book The Cold War, as it did not distinguish vital areas from those on the periphery of U.S. interests, essentially making the entire world a viable environment for the policy. However, the idea of containment remained at the forefront of U.S. policy during the Cold War, and Kennan himself used it as a motivation for the Marshall Plan.

Marshall Plan: From 1948 – 1951, the U.S. sent $12.4 billion to Western Europe in an effort to create economic stability in the region. This massive effort emphasized the importance of the region, as it contained America’s most powerful allies (Britain, France) and initially, Europe remained the forefront of the Cold War. While countries that participated in the program had no financial obligations to the U.S., they had to be members of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, which erased tariffs and other trade barriers in the regions that participated. While the Soviet Bloc was offered the same aid in return for political reform and some economic control, this compromise clashed with Soviet policy. Stalin responded by forbidding Eastern European satellites from accepting aid, and created Cominform, an international communist agency, reinforcing the image of a monolithic Soviet region.

National Security Act: In July 1947, the Office of Secretary of Defense (eventually renamed the Department of Defense in 1949) was created by President Truman, overseeing the armed forces, National Security Council, and Central Intelligence Agency.

TrumanNSA.jpg


This office expanded executive power, and alongside the CIA, a precedent for covert, unpublicized diplomacy and military efforts was established.

Nuclear Proliferation: Following the atomic (fission) bombings of Japan at the end of World War II, the U.S. was the only atomic superpower. However, in September 1949, the Soviet Union successfully detonated an atomic bomb. In April 1950, a secret document entitled NSC-68 was issued by a study group chaired by Paul Nitze, which recommended an enlarged military budget. This lead to a massive stockpile of bombs, both atomic and conventional, by both the American and Soviet governments. In 1950, Truman began production of a hydrogen (fusion) bomb, the first of which, based on a design by Edward Teller and Stanislaw Ulam, was successfully detonated in 1952. The Soviets used a fusion design developed by Andrei Sakharov and Vitaly Ginzburg, first tested in 1953.

Brinksmanship: Einsenhower's secretary of state, John Foster Dulles, advocated the policy of brinksmanship, which he described in an article published in Life Magazine as "the ability to get to the verge without getting into the war." [2] Coupled with the existing arms buildup, the Eisenhower administration suggested a willingness to bring the nation to the verge of virtually suicidal nuclear war in a crisis, while still citing that "mutual assured destruction" would prove a strong enough deterrent. Critics blame this policy as another factor that promoted continued hostile relations between the United States and the Soviet Union.

Domino Theory: Popularized by Eisenhower, domino theory was an extension of containment policy, proposing that that a nation that fell to communism would lead to destabilization in the region, particularly without United States intervention. This would theoretically lead to the spread of communism surrounding nations. While the trend was initially focused on Europe, it soon formed the basis of U.S. strategy in Asia.

Korean War (1950 - 1953)

Korean_War.gif

Military Map of Korea

Origins

1949 saw a drastic change in the balance of power in Asia, leading to newfound U.S. scrutiny in the region. In September, Chinese communist forces, led by Mao Zedong, swiftly defeated nationalist forces, led by the U.S.-backed Jiang Jieshi, who fled to Taiwan. Although the connection between Beijing and Moscow was tentative, the U.S. refused to diplomatically acknowledge the new Chinese government until 1979, believing it to be a part of an international communist force. This development also prompted the rhetoric “Who lost China?” leading to U.S. foreign policy to focus on Asia, particularly Indochina. [2]

On June 25th, 1950 North Korean troops moved into South Korea, beginning a conflict that would last until 1953. The two nations had been divided after Japan, which had colonized the nation beginning in 1910, was defeated in World War II. While the Americans had armed the South and the Soviets had armed the north, North Korea’s leader Kim Il Sung had only minor support for the attack from Stalin. However, the United States passed a U.N. resolution to deploy troops in response to the perceived act of Soviet-sponsored aggression.

American Action

Truman did not seek congressional approval for a declaration of war, and the Korean War remains classified as police action. General Douglas MacArthur commanded U.N. coalition forces, 40% of whom were South Koreans and 50% of whom were Americans. Initially, these forces were defeated and pushed to the southern Pusan perimeter. However, an amphibious landing at Inchon on September 15, 1950 pushed North Korean troops back to the 38th parallel. An invasion against North Korea began in October, transforming the conflict from a reiteration of containment into a U.S. offensive. While the Soviets did not respond to the attack, the Chinese assaulted coalition forces on October 25th near the Yalu River, driving the Americans back. A stalemate set in, and MacArthur's vocal support for an invasion of China led to his dismissal.

Conclusion

Armistice talks began in July 1951, but disagreements over the return of prisoners of war prevented a settlement for two years. The question of where prisoners would be sent was particularly controversial, especially when both sides used "re-education" and brainwashing techniques on such individuals. A lack of success in resolving the conflict was one of the factors leading to the 1952 election of Eisenhower as president, who fulfilled a campaign promise to visit Korea in an attempt to end the conflict on November 29, 1952.

Eventually, neutral nations mediated the return of POWs, who were given the choice between remaining in their country of their captivity or returning home. An armistice was signed on July 27, 1953. A demilitarized zone was established along the 38th parallel, and Korea remains divided to this day. The war cost 54,246 American lives and almost 5 million Asian lives, along with a $69.5 billion American bill, making it one of the costliest wars in modern history. [2] However, the Korean War is occasionally called the "forgotten war," and the ability of the executive to wage an undeclared war was undiminished.

Vietnam War (1959 - 1975)

Vietnam_War.jpg

Military Map of Vietnam

Origins

Vietnam was a French colony until Japan’s control during World War II. Following Japanese defeat, the French attempted to recolonize the country, opposing indigenous nationalist forces, the most prominent being the Viet Minh, headed by Ho Chi Minh, who had spent time in Moscow and had ties to Cominterm. The United States initially remained neutral, seeing the conflict as a war of decolonization, but the outbreak of the Korean War changed their position. The U.S. began publicly aiding France in 1950, avoiding direct U.S. troop involvement, but granting financial and logistical support to its ally. France was seen as a vital stabilizing force on the European continent, and thus the U.S. was obliged to lend some aid. Vietnam was also seen as a new environment for containment, as it was feared that a Viet Minh victory would lead to communist, and therefore Soviet, dominance of Southeast Asia.

Despite these efforts, the Viet Minh succeeded in expelling the French in the Battle of Dien Bien Phu in 1954, in which the U.S. refused to provide aid. By contrast, the Viet Minh soldiers were equipped with heavy artillery of Russian and Chinese origin, which enabled them to destroy much of the fort. In the subsequent Geneva Conference of 1954, Vietnam was partitioned into a socialist North Vietnam, headed by the Viet Minh, and a nominally Republican South Vietnam, ruled by Bao Dai. The 17th parallel was developed as a demilitarized buffer zone, which divided the two nations. However, this division was temporal, and the Geneva Accords promised free elections in 1956 to establish a united Vietnam. Thus, the potential for a communist government with authority over the entire country was not completely diminished, unlike the more permanent schism in Korea.

Ngo Dinh Diem

TQL.jpg

The Self-Immolation of Thich Quang Duc

Ngo Dinh Diem was prime minister under Bao Dai, who soon abdicated his throne. Diem became the established leader of South Vietnam from 1955-1963 following a rigged election with results that were mathematically impossible. Diem rejected the democratic elections promised by the Geneva Accords in 1956, reasoning that South Vietnam had never ratified the agreement. While Diem's active anti-Communism made him a strong U.S. ally, his regime was marked by internal strife and corruption. As both a Roman Catholic and authoritarian leader, Diem alienated the Buddhists, who made up approximately 90% of the population. This opposition coalesced in 1963 when Buddhist flags were prohibited from display, culminating in June with the self-immolation of a Buddhist monk, Thich Quang Duc. Another contentious issue was the actions of Diem’s younger brother, Ngo Dinh Nhu, head of the secret police and a controversial figure. These harsh policies led to the popularization of the National Liberation Front in 1960, a group of guerrilla fighters that became one of the major sources of insurgency, later known as the Viet Cong.

Although the U.S. began to have doubts in the face of mounting opposition and lack of political progress, they continued supporting Diem until 1963, when U.S. officials communicated that they would not oppose a change in regime. A military coup headed by General Duong Van Minh succeeded in 1963, assassinating Diem and Nhu on November 2. This further destabilized South Vietnam, as the various military juntas that followed were unsucessful at maintaining authority. The assassination of President Kennedy in November 22, 1963 led to an American transition of power, with Lyndon B. Johnson becoming president. [3]

The Gulf of Tonkin and U.S. Entanglement

Johnson continued the “middle ground” policy of supporting the South Vietnam financially but avoiding direct military involvement. But in 1964, a U.S. destroyer was involved in an engagement with three North Vietnamese torpedo ships, and a second attack was later reported, although never substantiated. "[Officials] did not knowingly lie about the alleged attacks, but they were obviously in a mood to retaliate and they seem to have selected from the evidence available to them those parts that confirmed what they wanted to believe," writes George Herring. [3] This led to an escalation of the war, as Congress passed the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution in the wake of the attack, granting authority to the president authority to use military force in the area, despite the absence of a formal declaration of war. The House voting unanimously in favor of the measure, and the Senate passed the resolution in a vote of 88-2. One dissenter, Senator Ernest Gruening of Alaska, articulated an early example of the anti-war position, saying, “We have been supporting corrupt and unpopular dictatorships which owe their temporary sojourn in power to our massive support, picking up the burden abandoned by France” instead of embracing anti-imperialism. Gruening saw “no threat to our national security...Vietnam is not worth the life of a single American boy,” echoing the thoughts of historical anti-imperialists.

Despite these misgivings, commitment of U.S. troops and wholesale bombing engagements began, and escalation of the conflict began in full force. Although very destructive, these efforts were not particularly effective in breaking the Viet Cong, who proved to be very resilient, relying on tactics of guerrilla warfare and the Ho Chi Minh Trail to relay supplies. Meanwhile, Johnson still relied on a “middle ground,” favoring increased bombings over raising U.S. troop levels (and therefore potential for casualties). Furthermore, he often obscured the extent of U.S. involvement to the American public, believing that domestic opposition would be an obstacle for his Great Society programs.

H.W. Brands denounces this practice: “Johnson’s war was Vietnam, and because he approached it like a legislator he fumbled it terribly. He split the difference between those...that demanded rapid withdrawal, and those that insisted on unleashing the military to get the job done. The via media, that golden rule of legislative success, ran straight into the quagmire that eventually consumed Johnson’s presidency.”

Nguyen Van Thieu came into power in 1967, establishing executive stability. A lull in the fighting was broken by the Tet Offensive of 1968, in which the major cities of South Vietnam were assaulted. While the insurgents were all eventually repulsed, the concentration of the attacks hurt morale and public opinion, reinforcing the perception that progress was not occurring. Although tentative peace talks began, they did not progress until an exhausted Johnson, who rejected a nomination for a second term, was succeeded by Richard Nixon in office in 1969. [3]

Nixon, Kissinger and Vietnamization

Upon assuming power, Nixon promised “peace with honor,” a vague term that encompassed a desire to end the Vietnam conflict while preserving U.S. interests and prestige. Nixon and National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger also faced mounting domestic opposition from the American public and the Democrat-controlled Congress, adopting ethically questionable practices that included wiretaps. [4]

Nixon eventually popularized the practice of “Vietnamization,” in which the South Vietnamese were trained to stand on their own, along with the gradual reduction in U.S. forces. Although a seemingly fresh approach, Nixon was merely continuing much of the same “middle ground” policy of his predecessors. Furthermore, Nixon expanded the conflict by bombing Cambodia in April 1970, and an investigation of the Symington subcommittee into U.S. military assistance to Laos revealed more evidence of clandestine action. These findings transformed the attitude of Congress towards presidential authority, culminating in the repeal of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution in 1971, and the passage of the War Powers Act of 1973, which limited the ability of the executive to wage war.

Yet the Vietnam War dragged onwards. Ironically, Nixon enjoyed some of his greatest foreign policy triumphs by pursuing détente with the Soviet Union and opening relations with China, despite continuing what was a nominally anti-communist conflict in Vietnam. On the strength of these diplomatic victories, as well as reduced U.S. troop levels and a cessation of the draft, Nixon won a landslide victory against anti-war presidential challenger George McGovern in 1972.

The Paris Peace Accords were signed on January 23, 1973, putting an official end to the conflict. A cease-fire was declared, but North Vietnam forces were allowed to remain in the South, with the expectation of national elections. American POWs were returned and forces withdrew. It became quickly apparent that U.S. support was essential to the survival of the Southern regime, and the complete withdrawal of U.S. ground troops lead to the rapid collapse of the Saigon government, with Saigon itself falling on April 30, 1975. It was the first conclusive defeat in American military history.

Evacuation.gif

Civilians Evacuate Saigon

Aftermath

The Vietnam War remains a bitterly controversial and divisive conflict. Following the collapse of South Vietnam, neighboring countries did not fall to communism, essentially disproving the Domino Theory. The conflict can be seen as one of the remnants of Cold War policy that subsequently fell into disfavor, particularly as relations with the Soviet Union and China improved. The role of the U.S. during the conflict can also be aligned with previous acts of imperialism, particularly in its support of what was a client (if not outright puppet) government. The war proved that even the world’s greatest superpower has its political, military and economic limits: Congress and the American people publicly opposed the war effort, the superiority of the U.S. army and air force did not lead to victory, and the financial cost of the war lead to a great deficit.

While the war’s justification remains ambiguous, its lessons are abundantly clear.

The%20Wall.jpg

The Vietnam Memorial, Washington D.C.
 
.
oh come-on people neither did Soviet nor is USA sincere with Afghans & try to pluck out a single reason why they should be!!

What I do feel that soviet arrival here was much hopeful for us why 'Equal division of power'

The presence of soviet in Middle-East & likewise presence of USA in central Europe will nullify the effect of any unequal emergence of power in the face of persecution/unprovoked occupation............

I mean if a relatively poor country is sanctioned by USA; Soviet will support it & vice versa so this means an everlasting peace so Pakistan generals while helping USA dug their own grave
 
.
oh come-on people neither did Soviet nor is USA sincere with Afghans & try to pluck out a single reason why they should be!!

What I do feel that soviet arrival here was much hopeful for us why 'Equal division of power'

The presence of soviet in Middle-East & likewise presence of USA in central Europe will nullify the effect of any unequal emergence of power in the face of persecution/unprovoked occupation............

I mean if a relatively poor country is sanctioned by USA; Soviet will support it & vice versa so this means an everlasting peace so Pakistan generals while helping USA dug their own grave

The Soviet promoted modrenization, security, science and education so naturally progressive minded people allied with soviet while the backward mullahs founds their alliance with USA. The con side of soviets was staunch anti-religion stance, expanstionist policies, poor economics and ineffciency. The USA has to play support for whoever raise slogans in theor favour, be it really backward jehadi mullahs.

The soviet initially concived Pakistan as a Turkish-Ottoman relic whom they were staunch enemy of. However Zia diplomacy greatly cooled down misconceptions and ties began to improve in 1960's. We made the folly with animosity with the neighbour and friendship with guy next block..and now paying back heavily. It was better for us to play in the western camp while keeping our own policy towards soviet and not becoming a pawn of fight between two powers.

In the last days of soviet empire, their incompetent centrally planned economy was in shambles and they recklessly invaded any country opposed to their policies, effectively bringing their own demise among their client states.

It is irnonic that USSR invaded Afghanistan to fight the same sort of crazy mullahs who are wreaking havoc all round the world with Pakistan takin the heaviest tolll. I should say this was some major far sightness. :cheers:
 
.
the problem with the end of COLD WAR is that one super power is not good for the world! either you are a "friend" of the USA or an "ENEMY" during the cold war two powers atleast helped keep things in balance now everything is just one way traffic!

i hate this new world order! maybe if the cold war was still going on IRAQ woudln't have been invaded under the fake assumption of WMD!!!

USA is all powerful and unanswerable to anyone! UN is mere puppet!
 
.
the problem with the end of COLD WAR is that one super power is not good for the world! either you are a "friend" of the USA or an "ENEMY" during the cold war two powers atleast helped keep things in balance now everything is just one way traffic!

i hate this new world order! maybe if the cold war was still going on IRAQ woudln't have been invaded under the fake assumption of WMD!!!

USA is all powerful and unanswerable to anyone! UN is mere puppet!
No war, hot or cold, last forever. Proxies inevitably get tired of being played. In a staring contest, someone will blink and the Soviet Union economically blinked. Hope you understand that I do not share your sorrow for its collapse.
 
.
No war, hot or cold, last forever. Proxies inevitably get tired of being played. In a staring contest, someone will blink and the Soviet Union economically blinked. Hope you understand that I do not share your sorrow for its collapse.

totally understand that you don't share the sorrow it is justifiable.:coffee:

however, having said that the first part of your statement that no war lasts forever is what if fueling terrorism because the terrorists believe that sooner or later the war will end and USA will leave IRAQ & AFGHANISTAN just like vietnam :coffee: besides no super power lasts forever, the romans,persian,spanish,purtuguese british & soviets have come and gone....so one day the WORLD DOMINATION of the USA will end too don't know if we will be there to see it or not...
 
.
Back
Top Bottom