Christian death toll spiking in India. Arson, massacre, state involvement,2002 again?

[Awesome]

AM jee. That is my point. We have gone over it earlier too.

India saw emigration from only border states which experienced first hand the horrors of partition. There was no large scale emigration from the interiors. Why? What does it mean?

Many Muslims from South India actually came back to India after emigrating to Pakistan for a while.

Non-Muslims were in significant numbers in all states of Western Pakistan before 1947. They dominated the bigger cities economically.

If they are now less than 1% or so, how else do you want to describe it except ethnic cleansing.

Oh c'mon, there is genocide going on. We're complaining against the rampant massacre... ONCE AGAIN! Look people will convert. No matter what. If Hinduism isn't as good as Christianity in someone's eyes he/she'll leave it.

I'm talking here as a secular person. I don't care what some religious law says. We are imposing humanity's law. In which case every person has a right to his or her own path to spirituality.

 

[Awesome]

No, it doesn't mean that. Wherever there is a significant population of the two communities, there would be this interaction.

Let's be candid about this. Why are Hindus committing genocide? The mentality amongst them is that "Oh my god, sab Hindu dharm chorhke bhaag rahay hain, naak kat gai!"

The image factor, the prestige, the embarrassment of everyone abandoning Hinduism is the true motivation toward this genocide from a country that used to go blue in the face screaming and bursting their lungs, testifying that they are secular.

Now it is up to you. Are you going to side with the Christians who are trying their best to convert people without holding a gun to someones head, without state involvement, or them being involved in the state - or are you going to side with theocratic powers who want state sanction to commit rampant genocide just because Hindus don't want to be Hindus any more.

Moreover, lets discuss this particular case.

The maoists have claimed responsibility for the killing of Laxamananda. I'm just astonished how much you guys bend over backwards to protect genocide committed by Hindus.

AFP: India Maoists claim killing that sparked anti-Christian riots

Grow a pair... and for once, hang a Hindu leader for committing genocide.

 

[DarkStar]

The Islamic punishment for apostasy is one of the most misunderstood of issues, by both muslims and non muslims.

It is taken as a religious law, while that is not its true context.

It must be remembered that a major part of Islamic law has to do with the state and secular affairs, not religious affairs.

Islam at that time was the name of a state, not just a religion.

This is why those people who refused to pay the islamic govt. zakat after Islam's Prophet died, were branded as apostates. They were apostates to the state, not necessarily the religion.

However, in those days these lines were blurred.

Even today, there is a British law on the statute books which punishes treason by death. The apostasy of that time can be equated to our notion of high treason, consorting with the enemy, etc. Most states in the middle ages, and many until very recently, had a death penalty for treason,insurrection, mutiny, leaving the battlefield, etc.

Since the State and Religion were almost one and the same thing, any apostasy from religion was seen as treason against the state. As mentioned above, treason still carries the death sentence in many countries today.

Please do not juxtapose those laws which were meant to help govern a country, with religious expressions of freedom of worship. I am sure we can engage in a lot of mud slinging if were to open some of the vedas, or the christian old testament. Personally, I have better things to do than that.

Although I am no apologist for Islam, it is mentioned in the Quran that there is no compulsion in religion. Let that suffice as an answer.

 

[Vinod2070]

The Islamic punishment for apostasy is one of the most misunderstood of issues, by both muslims and non muslims.

It is taken as a religious law, while that is not its true context.

It must be remembered that a major part of Islamic law has to do with the state and secular affairs, not religious affairs.

Islam at that time was the name of a state, not just a religion.

This is why those people who refused to pay the islamic govt. zakat after Islam's Prophet died, were branded as apostates. They were apostates to the state, not necessarily the religion.

However, in those days these lines were blurred.

Even today, there is a British law on the statute books which punishes treason by death. The apostasy of that time can be equated to our notion of high treason, consorting with the enemy, etc. Most states in the middle ages, and many until very recently, had a death penalty for treason,insurrection, mutiny, leaving the battlefield, etc.

Please do not juxtapose those laws which were meant to help govern a country, with religious expressions of freedom of worship. I am sure we can engage in a lot of mud slinging if were to open some of the vedas, or the christian old testament. Personally, I have better things to do than that.

Although I am no apologist for Islam, it is mentioned in the Quran that there is no compulsion in religion. Let that suffice as an answer.

A good post.

The highlighted part is one aspect of it. Do you think the Islamic society and Muslims have honored this throughout history? Are they doing that now?

 

[anand]

Let's be candid about this. Why are Hindus committing genocide? The mentality amongst them is that "Oh my god, sab Hindu dharm chorhke bhaag rahay hain, naak kat gai!"

The image factor, the prestige, the embarrassment of everyone abandoning Hinduism is the true motivation toward this genocide from a country that used to go blue in the face screaming and bursting their lungs, testifying that they are secular.

Now it is up to you. Are you going to side with the Christians who are trying their best to convert people without holding a gun to someones head, without state involvement, or them being involved in the state - or are you going to side with theocratic powers who want state sanction to commit rampant genocide just because Hindus don't want to be Hindus any more.

Moreover, lets discuss this particular case.

The maoists have claimed responsibility for the killing of Laxamananda. I'm just astonished how much you guys bend over backwards to protect genocide committed by Hindus.

AFP: India Maoists claim killing that sparked anti-Christian riots

Grow a pair... and for once, hang a Hindu leader for committing genocide.

With all humility and shame, I can accept there were only two incident when state subtlety sanctioned atrocity against minority by not taking effective measures against rioter. First in 1984 against sikh and then in 2002 against muslim. You may accuse Govt. of Orissa that they failed to protect minority, but not of supporting the fanatics.
How can you hang a hindu leader, he is not going to take gun in his hand and kill people. he will only instigate voilence, which is difficult to prove in court of law.
Only solution to such type of problem is to have respect and tolerance for others. I don't know when and how it will happen.

 

[Spring Onion]

With all humility and shame, I can accept there were only two incident when state subtlety sanctioned atrocity against minority by not taking effective measures against rioter. First in 1984 against sikh and then in 2002 against muslim. You may accuse Govt. of Orissa that they failed to protect minority, but not of supporting the fanatics.
How can you hang a hindu leader, he is not going to take gun in his hand and kill people. he will only instigate voilence, which is difficult to prove in court of law.
Only solution to such type of problem is to have respect and tolerance for others. I don't know when and how it will happen.

Agreed
But the problem is deep rooted in Hindutva ideology which is being carried even now by RSS, Bajrang Dal and VHP like organizations.


RSS is carrying the notorious agenda which advocates that India belong to those Indians who follow Hinduism faith.

 

[Awesome]

This won't be the right place where I start counting other such incidents, but what I was stating is that the Hindu fundos kill and seek state sanction for their actions.

When I say Hindu leader, I don't mean a Swami ji praying atop of some mountain, I mean scums like Narendra Modi.

'Had it not been India, Modi would have been hanged' - Express India

 

[Vinod2070]

Oh c'mon, there is genocide going on. We're complaining against the rampant massacre... ONCE AGAIN! Look people will convert. No matter what. If Hinduism isn't as good as Christianity in someone's eyes he/she'll leave it.

I'm talking here as a secular person. I don't care what some religious law says. We are imposing humanity's law. In which case every person has a right to his or her own path to spirituality.

What does genocide mean? When there is a large scale murder going on. Like what you guys did in East Pakistan. The body count was in 7 digits then.

What is happening now in India is terrible but the death count is barely in 2 digits. By no stretch of imagination is it genocide.

By India's standards it is still terrible, by your standards it's nothing.

 

[Vinod2070]

Oh c'mon, there is genocide going on. We're complaining against the rampant massacre... ONCE AGAIN! Look people will convert. No matter what. If Hinduism isn't as good as Christianity in someone's eyes he/she'll leave it.

I'm talking here as a secular person. I don't care what some religious law says. We are imposing humanity's law. In which case every person has a right to his or her own path to spirituality.

I agree with this part.

 

[Awesome]

What does genocide mean? When there is a large scale murder going on. Like what you guys did in East Pakistan. The body count was in 7 digits then.

What is happening now in India is terrible but the death count is barely in 2 digits. By no stretch of imagination is it genocide.

By India's standards it is still terrible, by your standards it's nothing.

Stay on topic, and discuss the issue.

I like to believe my nation doesn't adopt standards for genocide, perhaps you have an SOP for genocide in the double figure range.

Btw Genocide means: The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

It has nothing to do with the death count.

 

[DarkStar]

Genocide means killing of a particular ethnic group.

There was no such thing happening in Bangladesh.

IT was a war between two different ideologIes. Many bengalis, esp supporters of jamate islami, along with some beahris, fought on the side of the govt. Many of these bengalis along with members of the jamate islami later sook refuge in West Pakistan, and I have had the pleasure to meet some of them.

 

[Awesome]

Genocide means killing of a particular ethnic group.

There was no such thing happening in Bangladesh.

IT was a war between two different ideologIes. Many bengalis, esp supporters of jamate islami, along with some beahris, fought on the side of the govt. Many of these bengalis along with members of the jamate islami later sook refuge in West Pakistan, and I have had the pleasure to meet some of them.

Vinod, DS, I'd like you to not pursue this offtopic discussion.

We have plenty of dedicated threads to East Pakistan '71.

 

[Vinod2070]

Stay on topic, and discuss the issue.

I like to believe my nation doesn't adopt standards for genocide, perhaps you have an SOP for genocide in the double figure range.

Btw Genocide means: The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

It has nothing to do with the death count.

Agree with that. By no stretch of imagination is that the case in India.

There are crores of Christians in India. There is no attempt at all on the scale that you mention.

Your post was nothing but sensationalism.

 

[Vinod2070]

That is debatable. They will go to hell in their afterlife, but people are converting from Islam. The problem is when SECULAR governments start enforcing Hinduism upon former Hindus.

Either admit that yours is a Hindu government and then its justified. Democracy rules and if democracy says its a Hindu government then its fine as long as you clearly define that you will be killed for converting away from Hinduism.

Why is that? Do you think GOD is so intolerant that he will punish someone just because he wants to pray to him in a different way? Or even may be not pray at all.

Why should that happen? Why does GOD need the people to pray in certain way even if they are not being good human beings otherwise?

 

[Vinod2070]

Vinodh and other Indians are so brainwashed, that they will repeat the same old misconceptions ad infinitum.

Pakistan's ethnic minorities punch above their weight in most spheres. In Baluchistan, a majority of the bigger landlords and traders are Hindu.

In NWFP there is also a large and successful Hindu community who speak Hindko and Pasto. Sikh businesses have spread so much in NWFP that now almost every other medical store there is owned by a sikh, who are openly practicing their religion 5 symbols. Some of the most successful doctors are Hindus, as I have myself had the pleasure to meet.

Sindh is awash with hindus, with our previus acting Chief Justice of Pakistan, J. Bhagwan Das a Sindhi Hindu. They are major landlords in Sindh, and have a monopoly on produce trade in Sindh and Karachi. Almost to a man, the Aartis and major traders of rice and cereals in Sindh and Karachi are Hindus.

Christians are everywhere throughout the country, epecially the PUnjab. The number of christian churches gonging their bells on Sundays bears testament to that fact. Christians in PUnjab are now part of the highly educated elite, although many are still in the menial jobs that the Hindus forced them into while they were shudras. However, this is changing, with education christians have excelled in many fields. One of our great chief justices of the past, justice cornelius was a christian.

Another example would be to go to the north and visit Kafiristan. This is where descendants of the ancient greeks still live with their culture intact, practicing the ancient greek religion from the time of Alexander, which the greeks themselves have forgotten.

Karachi has areas full of Hindus, Parsis, Christians living in peace and harmony, with never an incident of discrimination or suppresson recorded, let alone violence.

Yes, the Punjab seems to be empty of its sikhs an Hindus, but so is the Indian punjab void of any muslims. The ethnic cleansing in the PUnjab was mutual, the reasons for which are the subject of another discussion.

In Pakistan, the number of minorities has been constant, while in India the muslims epecialy are decreasing in terms of over all popuation percentage.

I could go on and on about the welbeing of minoities in Pakistan, but I think the above should suffice.

DS, I have high regards for you from the posts that I have seen of you. This comment takes that a notch down.

You make so many claims here. Tell me, Is Pakistan 96-97% Muslim or not?

If it is, that means there are hardly any minorities left. In a population of 170 million even 3% would mean a good number but that doesn't take away from the basic fact that there are little minorities left in Pakistan.