Chinese thoughts on Islam and Muslims

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

I guess i am telling you that the Muslims you interact with in Singapore are creating unnecessary requirements for themselves. I will not call them unproper or uneducated, because that is impolite. The dog thing is actually common even in the UK. I grew up thinking gods were unclean until i started learning my religion from educated scholars and not from word of mouth.

Also something else, Muslims should not keep dogs as pets. We are permitted to keep dogs as something to use (like guide dogs, or guard dogs, or sheep dogs etc), but not as pets because it is said that angels avoid such homes. That is not a logical stance - we cannot prove the existence of angels, that is a religious stance.

In the UK in our family home we don't have a dog, we don't need one. In Pakistan in our family home we have 2 dogs, because we live in a rural area and need them for security.

The halal kitchen thing is different. Muslims should not eat food which is prepared with non halal ingredients or vessels which have contained non halal ingredients (unless they have been washed). That indeed does cause inconvenience, especially in a confined area like a warship.

Also i'm glad you dont think of clash of cultures as a matter of hostility, but rather of awkwardness. I absolutely agree that at times it can be awkward.

there u go: after all these 'merry-go-round' posts, u ended up reaffirming my point all along; that Muslims cannot touch dogs. im not talking about which part of a dog that muslims cannot touch or or as what kinda husbandry/occupational role; muslims cannot touch dogs- simple.

Muslims cannot eat this, Muslims cannot eat that
Muslims cannot drink this, Muslims cannot drink that.
Muslims cannot do, this, muslims cannot do that

This is a 'clash of culture' to me.

Would u interact with people whom u feel awkward n uncomfortable with? that would be your answer.

This is my thought as a Chinese(ethnically and culturally)- of Muslims.

Thanks.

 

[313ghazi]

there u go: after all these 'merry-go-round' posts, u ended up reaffirming my point all along; that Muslims cannot touch dogs. im not talking about which part of a dog that muslims cannot touch or or as what kinda husbandry/occupational role; muslims cannot touch dogs- simple.

Muslims cannot eat this, Muslims cannot eat that
Muslims cannot drink this, Muslims cannot drink that.
Muslims cannot do, this, muslims cannot do that

This is a 'clash of culture' to me.

Would u interact with people whom u feel awkward n uncomfortable with? that would be your answer.

This is my thought as a Chinese(ethnically and culturally) - of Muslims.

Thanks.

I said no such thing, you choose to misinterpret. This is a personal problem with you, you should not hide behind Chinese culture for your own issues.

You're clearly a person who is an introvert. You express fear of the unknown and awkwardness at difference. I suspect you would have the same reaction if you were offered pepsi instead of coca-cola. You have trivialised the term "clash of cultures" down to dogs and pork.

I respect your right to your perspective, but it is alien to me. I think it's alien to most people who live in multicultural societies. Hindu's cannot eat beef - it's has never once caused any awkwardness between myself or a hindu. The society my ancestors come from is one where Muslim, Hindu, Sikh have co-existed for hundreds of years. Some of those times have been easier than others, depending on how responsible the rulers were.

I live in a society where there are dozens of cultures, co-existing. The wide berth that the state provides, the liberty to do what you want, means there is no clash of cultures, simply a co-existence. I ate lunch on the weekend in a kurdish owned, turkish resturant and in the same resturant there was a somali family, an arab family, a group of polish men, some english guys and some roma gypsies. I get my car washed from an Iraqi owned business which hires eastern european workers - some of those guys don't even speak english, their colleagues translate! Every department lunch at my workplace includes vegetarian and meat options and always 1 gluten free meal, for our colleague who is allergic to gluten. To arrange that is not difficult, it is thoughtful.

Last week i was kept up by Hindu's releasing fireworks to celebrate diwali. Three times a year the roads in our local area are blocked because of parades, 1 is a Muslim parade to celebrate the birthday of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), one is a Sikh parade to celebrate one of their festivals and the other parade is organised by the black community. There is an annual parade a little further away in the city centre every year too, it's organised by homosexuals. Each year these events occur, people are inconvenienced and we tolerate it, because it is important to someone else and we respect that - we don't consider it a barrier.

You and I clearly come from two very different worlds.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

I said no such thing, you choose to misinterpret. This is a personal problem with you, you should not hide behind Chinese culture for your own issues.

You're clearly a person who is an introvert. You express fear of the unknown and awkwardness at difference. I suspect you would have the same reaction if you were offered pepsi instead of coca-cola. You have trivialised the term "clash of cultures" down to dogs and pork.

I respect your right to your perspective, but it is alien to me. I think it's alien to most people who live in multicultural societies. Hindu's cannot eat beef - it's has never once caused any awkwardness between myself or a hindu. The society my ancestors come from is one where Muslim, Hindu, Sikh have co-existed for hundreds of years. Some of those times have been easier than others, depending on how responsible the rulers were.

I live in a society where there are dozens of cultures, co-existing. The wide berth that the state provides, the liberty to do what you want, means there is no clash of cultures, simply a co-existence. I ate lunch on the weekend in a kurdish owned, turkish resturant and in the same resturant there was a somali family, an arab family, a group of polish men, some english guys and some roma gypsies. I get my car washed from an Iraqi owned business which hires eastern european workers - some of those guys don't even speak english, their colleagues translate! Every department lunch at my workplace includes vegetarian and meat options and always 1 gluten free meal, for our colleague who is allergic to gluten. To arrange that is not difficult, it is thoughtful.

Last week i was kept up by Hindu's releasing fireworks to celebrate diwali. Three times a year the roads in our local area are blocked because of parades, 1 is a Muslim parade to celebrate the birthday of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), one is a Sikh parade to celebrate one of their festivals and the other parade is organised by the black community. There is an annual parade a little further away in the city centre every year too, it's organised by homosexuals. Each year these events occur, people are inconvenienced and we tolerate it, because it is important to someone else and we respect that - we don't consider it a barrier.

You and I clearly come from two very different worlds.

U kept trying to whitewash and twist around the fact that muslims cant touch dogs, going as far as to insinuate that Singaporean muslims are 'stupid' and 'uneducated':

This is what leads to stupid ideas like Muslims cannot touch dogs.

- which is ludicrous.

The fact that Mainland Chinese posters in this thread share my POV proves im not the only 1 with these thoughts about Muslims.

Thus, right from the moment when u interpreted my phrase 'clash of cultures' as being 'hostile';

It still doesn't explain how this is a clash though, what makes you think this leads to something that is hostile?

you reaffirmed my beliefs that Muslims are intolerant to those who pinpoint the incompatibility of their religion to modern societies- specially pragmatic and materialistic-based societies like Sinitic ones(which value $$$ more than 'god').

However, as this is a pakistani forum, i do not wish to intentionally antagonise our Pakistani muslim friends here and get this thread locked.

To you your religion and to me mine(which is $$$).

That's all.

Thanks.

 

[313ghazi]

You have been completely discredited and you find that difficult to handle. Anyone who reads this thread will see that.

U kept trying to whitewash and twist around the fact that muslims cant touch dogs, going as far as to insinuate that Singaporean muslims are 'stupid' and 'uneducated':

- which is ludicrous.

I explicitly refused to do that. You made that statement and asked me to support it, i refused to. It is clearly stated in my posts on the previous page.

The fact that Mainland Chinese posters in this thread share my POV proves im not the only 1 with these thoughts about Muslims.

You have no authority to claim yourself as a representative on the views an opinions of other people, particularly 1 billion people. We are talking about opinion, not a matter of fact, thus everyone is entitled to have a different one. By trying to pass yourself off as a representative of others you are desperately trying to give credibility to views which have none.

You are the one who has rejected evidence provided from a scholarly source and instead chosen to use anecdotal evidence to re-affirm your self built views. For someone who laters claims to be pragmatic, you don't take that approach to our discussion anymore.

you reaffirmed my beliefs that Muslims are intolerant to those who pinpoint the incompatibility of their religion to modern societies- specially pragmatic and materialistic-based societies like Sinitic ones(which value $$$ more than 'god').

At no point have i told you to change your opinion, i have told you where your opinion contradicts the facts. Religious belief is not fact, it is faith - but the doctrines and rules are documented, thus can be treated in the same manner someone would treat a set of historical "facts". On two issues you have stated an opinion which you incorrectly attribute to Islamic beliefs, i have provided scholarly evidence to the contrary - you have ignored it and given precedence to your "life experience" instead.

To you, your religion and to me- mine(which is $$$)

That's all.

Thanks.

That's fine - i stated when i opened this topic i have no intention to preach or to convert or to give weighting to one way of life over another. My intention is to learn and most people, including you have helped me to learn. At some point our interaction has taken a turn into a "defensive mode" when i corrected you. We don't have to interact further on the issue if you don't want to.

I welcome everyone elses thoughts on this subject or related subjects. At the very least I hope by the time it finishes we can see a plurality of opinions on different matters.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

You have been completely discredited and you find that difficult to handle. Anyone who reads this thread will see that.



I explicitly refused to do that. You made that statement and asked me to support it, i refused to. It is clearly stated in my posts on the previous page.



You have no authority to claim yourself as a representative on the views an opinions of other people, particularly 1 billion people. We are talking about opinion, not a matter of fact, thus everyone is entitled to have a different one. By trying to pass yourself off as a representative of others you are desperately trying to give credibility to views which have none.

You are the one who has rejected evidence provided from a scholarly source and instead chosen to use anecdotal evidence to re-affirm your self built views. For someone who laters claims to be pragmatic, you don't take that approach to our discussion anymore.



At no point have i told you to change your opinion, i have told you where your opinion contradicts the facts. Religious belief is not fact, it is faith - but the doctrines and rules are documented, thus can be treated in the same manner someone would treat a set of historical "facts". On two issues you have stated an opinion which you incorrectly attribute to Islamic beliefs, i have provided scholarly evidence to the contrary - you have ignored it and given precedence to your "life experience" instead.



That's fine - i stated when i opened this topic i have no intention to preach or to convert or to give weighting to one way of life over another. My intention is to learn and most people, including you have helped me to learn. At some point our interaction has taken a turn into a "defensive mode" when i corrected you. We don't have to interact further on the issue if you don't want to.

I welcome everyone elses thoughts on this subject or related subjects. At the very least I hope by the time it finishes we can see a plurality of opinions on different matters.

= https://www.google.com.sg/search?q=.....69i57j0l5.2583j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

yupz.

i repeat:

To you your religion and to me- mine.

 

[Cybernetics]

Traditionally and currently China absorbs a lot of information from the rest of the world because it realises its backwards in some areas that need to be improved in order to achieve its goals. There are some cultures that China sees creating things and ideas China wants to have for itself so it seeks to learn from them. How China picks who to learn from is by evidence not by what they say, just like how China isn't fooled by the west's human rights and democracy claims.

The west is advanced in technology so China learns technology from the west, they have showed their advanced technology through their economy, military power, and standard of living, once they stop being those things China will look elsewhere. China also looks at the Islamic world, and there isn't much that China wants to learn from it currently. The evidence provided is a mostly impoverished land with low technical knowledge, ancient practices, extremist thought, and constant wars. Some islamic countries are not that bad and in the middle but do you want to learn from the average student in class or the best?

Just like when China was weak, poor and starving no country sought knowledge from China, why would anybody want to emulate a backwards and poor country? its the law of nature. I see many members from Muslim countries criticising China's technology, industry, society, etc. and not wanting to adopt anything from China its totally understandable, we are not happy either but trying to improve. Of course there are very wealthy Islamic countries, but they are all oil/gas exporters, with the exception of Turkey who is a middle income country with a decent industrial base. This is because they are secular, tried to westernise and has an relatively open culture. One does not need an advanced culture to extract oil and acquire weapons through importing Western companies' technology. China doesn't want to learn from the Islamic world right now because it doesn't want to live its lifestyle. To Chinese many Islamic countries are actually exceedingly backwards and looks like a peek into ancient history that nobody wants to re live, we don't believe social progression stopped in the 7th century. Strict adherence to Sharia to Chinese is as strange as the "end of history" as proclaimed by the west, regarding liberal democracy. China had some pretty brutal laws and backward practices in ancient times but we have learned and beyond that now. This attitude China has is because the goal for China right now is clear: We don't want to be weak and backwards because it has brought us pain and suffering. We don't want that pain and suffering so we want to always be at the forefront of science and technology.

Islamic countries don't necessarily have the same social priorities as China, they say they want all this development (which we are happy to help) and be advanced in science and technology but are they willing to pay the cost of it? The cost is change in traditional attitudes, its fair if they refuse. Chinese just feel modern China is at such different wavelengths with many Muslims, not necessarily with the elites of Islamic countries. My personal experience with the elites is that they are very secular, put on the image of religious piety for its people but very focused modern values for their country and their families.

I am aware that China still has many backward practices that can be seen elsewhere as unacceptable. For example some Chinese eat dogs because as they say it tastes good, personally I have never tried or want to. The reason for doing so could be because of availability and affordability. Traditionally dogs were seen as just another domesticated farm animal. Being to a Chinese farm I saw that the dog had the lowest social status of all farm animals, even the ones to be consumed thus its life is of little value. As China entered the modern age cats and dogs were no longer seen as farm animals as people keep them for pleasure, company, or status. This causes people to view dogs and cats differently, much closer to the family and develop attachment creating a movement of people who are against eating cats and dogs. In my view all practices whether seen as acceptable or unacceptable by certain societies form for a reason. Its wonderful to see societies progress.

When Chinese are thinking of how can we technologically develop so eventually we can break the shackles of human limitation such as life extension, nuclear fusion, exploring the solar system/deep space, AI, understanding the laws of physics, and removing ourselves of our own backward elements, we feel many Muslims are spending too much time on how they can stay content with their ancient culture and live in Sharia, or worse try to impose ancient Arab values upon us. It feels very arrogant for Chinese to hear that some Muslims say "all your problems will be solved by Sharia" or adopting ancient Arabic values, and you will live in harmony with Allah. We think do they not realise the state their reality is in, have incompatible values or are they delusional. Mostly Chinese wont care about others because we are on our own path in this world but very defensive towards entities we perceive as relentlessly offensive towards us. Refer to game theory.

Ultimately I don't blame Muslim people for all the problems they face as China was similar before. The development of society is actually very closely correlated with technological progression. An example would be Saudi Arabia allowing women to drive for the first time in history. Before the mass adoption of the technology of the car that was not a problem but as the car became an economic reality for the family they must use it to make a living. Not allowing women to drive meant spending lots of money on drivers which is very burdensome for an average family. Eventually society must deal with the reality of technological change. Very hopeful for Saudi Arabia.

A honest view of the world from many Chinese point of view. As individuals we can and should treat people equally (no special rights) but government who make big decisions view the world differently. I also have noticed a theme with Chinese people i have met recently, if you ask for their real opinion they are brutally honest to a fault, it can hurt many feelings but thats how Chinese culture is. When someone is getting fat people will call them out for getting fat, so skinny, no sugar coating so Chinese people either have a thick skin or do something about it. Chinese don't criticise outsiders usually because they don't really care about them. They only bother criticising people they care about.

If you see anything you disagree with please let me know, it could be due to my personal ignorance.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

Traditionally and currently China absorbs a lot of information from the rest of the world because it realises its backwards in some areas that need to be improved in order to achieve its goals. There are some cultures that China sees creating things and ideas China wants to have for itself so it seeks to learn from them. How China picks who to learn from is by evidence not by what they say, just like how China isn't fooled by the west's human rights claims.

The west is advanced in technology so China learns technology from the west, they have showed their advanced technology through their economy, military power, and standard of living, once they stop being those things China will look elsewhere. China also looks at the Islamic world, and there isn't much that China wants to learn from it currently. The evidence provided is a mostly impoverished land with low technical knowledge, ancient practices, extremist thought, and constant wars. Some islamic countries are not that bad and in the middle but do you want to learn from the average student in class or the best?

Just like when China was weak, poor and starving no country sought knowledge from China, why would anybody want to emulate a backwards and poor country? its the law of nature. Of course there are very wealthy Islamic countries, but they are all oil/gas exporters, with the exception of Turkey who is a middle income country. This is because they are secular, tried to westernise and has an relatively open culture. One does not need an advanced culture to extract oil and acquire weapons through importing Western companies' technology. China doesn't want to learn from the Islamic world right now because it doesn't want to live its lifestyle. To Chinese many Islamic countries are actually exceedingly backwards and looks like a peek into ancient history that nobody wants to re live. China had some pretty brutal laws and backward practices in ancient times but we have learned and beyond that now. This attitude China has is because the goal for China right now is clear: We don't want to be weak and backwards because it has brought us pain and suffering. We don't want that pain and suffering so we want to always be at the forefront of science and technology.

Islamic countries don't necessarily have the same social priorities as China, they say they want all this development (which we are happy to help) and be advanced in science and technology but are they willing to pay the cost of it? The cost is change in traditional attitudes, its fair if they refuse. Chinese just feel modern China is at such different wavelengths with Muslims, not necessarily with the elites of Islamic countries. My personal experience with the elites is that they are very secular, put on the image of religious piety for its people but very focused modern values for their country and their families.

When Chinese are thinking of how can we technologically develop so eventually we can break the shackles of human limitation such as life extension, nuclear fusion, exploring the solar system/deep space, AI, understanding the laws of physics, and removing ourselves of our own backward elements, we feel many Muslims are spending too much time on how they can stay content with their ancient culture and live in Sharia, or worse try to impose ancient Arab values upon us. It is very arrogant for Chinese to hear that some Muslims say all your problems will be solved by Sharia or adopting ancient Arabic values, and you will live in harmony with Allah. We think do they not realise the state their reality is in, have incompatible values or are they delusional. Mostly Chinese wont care about others because we are on our own path in this world but very defensive towards entities we perceive as relentlessly offensive towards us. Refer to game theory.

Ultimately I don't blame Muslim people for all the problems they face as China was similar before. The development of society is actually very closely correlated with technological progression. An example would be Saudi Arabia allowing women to drive for the first time in history. Before the mass adoption of the technology of the car that was not a problem but as the car became an economic reality for the family they must use it to make a living. Not allowing women to drive meant spending lots of money on drivers which is very burdensome for an average family. Eventually society must deal with the reality of technological change. Very hopeful for Saudi Arabia.

atually, the chinese do have a 'god':

 

[lastofthepatriots]

Chinese members on this thread come off as very arrogant.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Most Chinese are usually neutral towards Muslims.

But people in the west can be hostile to Muslims.

Chinese members on this thread come of as very arrogant.

Why are you badmouthing our allies?

Chinese people are allies with Pakistan.

 

[Cybernetics]

Chinese members on this thread come of as very arrogant.

I agree, some are arrogant but they are not the ones in charge of Chinese policy or at the forefront pushing Chinese civilisation forward. They are usually angry individuals needing to vent themselves like anywhere, they can vent all they like, they are angry for other reasons usually. During the diaoyudao incident with Japan many angry Chinese started to trash japanese cars and businesses (owned by Chinese). They are usually discontent for other reasons unrelated to geopolitics but find that this is an excuse to vent. Chinese elites value the trade with japan as it helps Chinese develop technologies. May uneducated mobs never be in charge of China. The point is the enlightened ones and leaders are very realist and are not arrogant or mean. They just have their own world view and priorities different than most. I have noticed that with elites everywhere, they are usually cool headed with a clear vision of the world.

I gotta say many ethnic Chinese not born in China have a very different, un-nuanced understanding of Chinese practices. People within China have very little direct exposure to the politics of the outside world, they know what is happening but don't have strong emotions towards it thus are much more neutral and easier to deal with.

 

[lastofthepatriots]

Most Chinese are usually neutral towards Muslims.

But people in the west can be hostile to Muslims.


Why are you badmouthing our allies?

Chinese people are allies with Pakistan.

Shut the **** up and leave me alone.

 

[MultaniGuy]

I agree, some are arrogant but they are not the ones in charge of Chinese policy or at the forefront pushing Chinese civilisation forward. May they never be in charge of China. The point is the enlightened ones and leaders are very realist and are not arrogant or mean. They just have their own world view and priorities different than most.

Excellent post. The Chinese government prefers and is allied with the Pakistani government.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I live in a society where there are dozens of cultures, co-existing. The wide berth that the state provides, the liberty to do what you want, means there is no clash of cultures, simply a co-existence.

To be fair, where you and @eldarlmari live (UK and Singapore) have very different social dynamics.

In Southeast Asian countries like Malaysia, Indonesia and Singapore there is a big social divide between local Malays/Indons, local ethnic Chinese and Indian/Bangladeshi immigrants.

The UK is relatively more integrated, though they do have a similar problem in more specific regional areas (like Luton perhaps).

Generally I would say that most human beings (95%+) are generally good, and any bad attitudes they might have is usually due to misunderstandings.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

To be fair, where you and @eldarlmari live (UK and Singapore) have very different social dynamics.

In Southeast Asian countries like Malaysia, Indonesia and Singapore there is a big social divide between local Malays/Indons, local ethnic Chinese and Indian/Bangladeshi immigrants.

The UK is relatively more integrated, though they do have a similar problem in more specific regional areas (like Luton perhaps).

Generally I would say that most human beings (95%+) are generally good, and any bad attitudes they might have is usually due to misunderstandings.

not true.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

not true.

Hmm which part?