Chinese thoughts on Islam and Muslims

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

I was reading a disaster of a thread called "Religions must be Chinese in orientation" and came across a message which struck a chord with me.


I am a Pakistani Muslim and I know very little about China and Chinese people and culture. I also think Chinese people know very little about Islam and Muslims.

I agree wholeheartedly with the two highlighted statements. I want to help change the perception of the statement in between them. Perception inherently is not wrong, because is it built on what you know, it can only change based on what you know.

What I would like to do is hear your honest opinions and concerns and perhaps try to explain any misconceptions and also to learn about your prespective.

My intention is not to prove the superiority of my culture over yours, or to ask anyone to adapt my culture and abandon yours, or to even prove anyone wrong.

the greatest difference and here is that the Chinese places one's country/culture above one's religion. Muslims does the opposite.

E.g

I see myself in order:

1)Singaporean aka country
2)Chinese aka race
3)Atheist aka religion

A Muslim would see himself/herself as:

1)Muslim, submitter to the will of 'God' aka religion
2)nationality aka country
3)race

Thus, Chinese do not interact much with Muslims. Most Chinese are not keen in visiting Muslim countries or making Muslim friends because of the clash of culture.

If im sponsored with trips to 10 countries with all expenses paid, i would not visit any Muslim countries, unless it's a liberal 1 whereby religion is confined to homes and not imposed in public. I can accept if u r telling me i cant drink in your home. But if u're telling me i cant drink in public and society as a whole- sorry i will feel uneasy and unwelcomed

 

[313ghazi]

the greatest difference and here is that the Chinese places one's country/culture above one's religion. Muslims does the opposite.

E.g

I see myself in order:

1)Singaporean aka country
2)Chinese aka race
3)Atheist aka religion

A Muslim would see himself/herself as:

1)Muslim, submitter to the will of 'God' aka religion
2)nationality aka country
3)race

You're right there is a fundamental difference there. It's much the same as the difference between Muslims and Europeans. There are "nationalist" Muslims who think the same as you, but it's not the traditional perspective.

This next bit is a little off topic...

I wonder though how true you are to the priorities of your identity, i'm not doubting you - i just wonder whether you've ever been in a situation where you've been forced to make the choice. I'll give you a personal example. Pre-911 i always considered my religious and national identity completely seperate (I still do, they're different categories of identity) but post 911 the right wing media created a situation where as a young Muslim man I was being asked what mattered more, being British or being Muslim. It was imposed through certain sections of the press that being both was not possible - i disagree with that assessment but it did for the first time in my life cause me to question my own identity.

Let us take a fictional scenario where tomorrow the rulers of Singapore decide everyone has to be Scientologists in order to live in Singapore. Assume all avenues had been exhausted and you were put in a situation where you have to either embrace Scientology as the 1 true religion, or you have to leave Singapore - what would you do?

I think most people in the world haven't had to answer this question, but I think Muslims who are minorities in western countries, have had this country posed to them, not by the state, but by other parts of society. If a similar fictional scenario was forced on me, i'd have to leave the country i was living in.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

Let us take a fictional scenario where tomorrow the rulers of Singapore decide everyone has to be Scientologists in order to live in Singapore. Assume all avenues had been exhausted and you were put in a situation where you have to either embrace Scientology as the 1 true religion, or you have to leave Singapore - what would you do?

I think most people in the world haven't had to answer this question, but I think Muslims who are minorities in western countries, have had this country posed to them, not by the state, but by other parts of society. If a similar fictional scenario was forced on me, i'd have to leave the country i was living in.

From my Aetheistic perspective; that i see religion no more than a primitive concept invented by mankind to explain things that can not be explained back then and because i know there's no such thing as 'god'- i see religion as a private affair- a matter of spirituality.

Thus, if adopting the beliefs of Scientology whereby there's no concept of the existence and worship of a divine being'- i will 'convert'to this 'religion' n continuing staying, simply because Singapore is my home and 2)it does not go against my personal beliefs that i'm utterly-convinced that 'god'- simply do not exist.

I have said this somewhere in this forum; that without a country- there can be no home. Even the formal Chinese word for 'country' = 国家(lit. country+ home)

This is why muslims and and non-muslims(specially chinese) are facing a clash of culture- we place different priorities on our identity.




*PS a better comparison would be whether i would do the same if i was a Christian and being given a choice to convert to Islam or get out of the country. In that case, i would leave, since it impedes on my personal beliefs.

 

[313ghazi]

This is why muslims and and non-muslims(specially chinese) are facing a clash of culture- we place different priorities on our identity.

I see this term a lot - clash of culture. People use it instead of difference in culture. Clash would suggest some sort of hostility between the people or representatives of the two cultures. Do you see things in that way? Do you think other Chinese do?

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

I see this term a lot - clash of culture. People use it instead of difference in culture. Clash would suggest some sort of hostility between the people or representatives of the two cultures. Do you see things in that way? Do you think other Chinese do?

i have to admit i do see it in that way since it impedes the very natural interaction of human beings.

if i cant see your hair, or worse; that ur face is covered- the subconcious me will tell me to be on guard against u.

if i see u wearing a long huge beard in this modern age(not just muslims)- the subconcious me will also tell me to stay away from u n be on guard. I will say 'hi' and 'bye' to u- but nothing more than that.

If u cant eat certain food and thus, cant be sitting near me becos i am eating what u cant eat. Then naturally, that just further fosters our un-interact-ability. Mother nature did'nt restrict what we Omnivores can eat or not eat.

Hence, to me, this is not just a difference- but a 'clash'(abeit a discreet 1). Im not gonna hate some1 just becos he/she is a muslim. However, it is also unlikely i will interact much with them.

 

[313ghazi]

i have to admit i do see it in that way since it impedes the very natural interaction of human beings.

if i cant see your hair, or worse; that ur face is covered- the subconcious me will tell me to be on guard against u.

if i see u wearing a long huge beard in this modern age(not just muslims)- the subconcious me will also tell me to stay away from u n be on guard. I will say 'hi' and 'bye' to u- but nothing more than that.

If u cant eat certain food and thus, cant be sitting near me becos i am eating what u cant eat. Then naturally, that just further fosters our un-interact-ability. Mother nature did'nt restrict what we Omnivores can eat or not eat.

For me, that is so strange. I couldn't care less what anyone looks like, does, eats etc. As long as you don't take what is mine, that's fine by me. I don't know what Singapore is like - ive never visited but i've grown up in a country where completely different cultures just co-exist. I go to lunch with work colleagues and some people will only order vegetarian food, 1 woman is gluten free, others halal food, others will order a beer - we sit at the same table and eat.

Are you suspicious of vegetarians too? I suppose it might be a personal thing, i've always been confident within myself.

 

[GS Zhou]

For me, that is so strange. I couldn't care less what anyone looks like, does, eats etc. As long as you don't take what is mine, that's fine by me. I don't know what Singapore is like - ive never visited but i've grown up in a country where completely different cultures just co-exist. I go to lunch with work colleagues and some people will only order vegetarian food, 1 woman is gluten free, others halal food, others will order a beer - we sit at the same table and eat.

Are you suspicious of vegetarians too? I suppose it might be a personal thing, i've always been confident within myself.

I have some questions.

I like to eat pork. Pork is actually my favorite food. Will this be a problem for you or other Muslim people to see me as a friend? Will this make you or other Muslim people think I'm dirty? Will this be a problem for you or other Muslim people to have any body-touch with me, e.g. shake hands, or hug? Do you feel ok to sit in the same table with me for lunch or dinner? You eat your food, I eat my food (mainly pork), in the same table. We don't share the food, we just share the same table. Do you think it is ok and acceptable?

 

[rashid.sarwar]

I have some questions.

I like to eat pork. Pork is actually my favorite food. Will this be a problem for you or other Muslim people to see me as a friend? Will this make you or other Muslim people think I'm dirty? Will this be a problem for you or other Muslim people to have any body-touch with me, e.g. shake hands, or hug? Do you feel ok to sit in the same table with me for lunch or dinner? You eat your food, I eat my food (mainly pork), in the same table. We don't share the food, we just share the same table. Do you think it is ok and acceptable?

No problem, just I will not eat the food you eat else sharing, hugging etc no problem

 

[GS Zhou]

No problem, just I will not eat the food you eat else sharing, hugging etc no problem

many thanks to your reply!

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

For me, that is so strange. I couldn't care less what anyone looks like, does, eats etc. As long as you don't take what is mine, that's fine by me. I don't know what Singapore is like - ive never visited but i've grown up in a country where completely different cultures just co-exist. I go to lunch with work colleagues and some people will only order vegetarian food, 1 woman is gluten free, others halal food, others will order a beer - we sit at the same table and eat.

Are you suspicious of vegetarians too? I suppose it might be a personal thing, i've always been confident within myself.

as far as i know, vegetarians will seat n eat with meat-eaters. In fact, there are Chinese 'by-personal choice' vegetarians.

Muslims would not.

here's a real life example:

There are 2 fridges at my workplace pantry. 1 of them has a prominent hand-written sign pasted on it that says 'halal food only'. My company had to install 2 fridges instead of 1- simply to accomodate muslims. Singapore's Navy has no Muslim officers or sailors serving on ships- because there is insufficient ktichen or dining space to support them.

Not only that, Singapore's K9 unit for search and rescue teams do not have muslim offciers as well- simply because Muslims cannot touch dogs.

Muslims cannot do this, Muslims cannot do that.

This to me- is a blatant 'clash' of culture.

 

[313ghazi]

I have some questions.

I like to eat pork. Pork is actually my favorite food. Will this be a problem for you or other Muslim people to see me as a friend? Will this make you or other Muslim people think I'm dirty? Will this be a problem for you or other Muslim people to have any body-touch with me, e.g. shake hands, or hug? Do you feel ok to sit in the same table with me for lunch or dinner? You eat your food, I eat my food (mainly pork), in the same table. We don't share the food, we just share the same table. Do you think it is ok and acceptable?

For stupid people this is a problem, for sensible people this is not a problem. Unfortunately the world has many stupid people.

From a religious point of view, pork is considered unpure - so to eat or touch any product made from the pig invalidates ritual cleanliness. What this means is, before we pray we should perform an ablution. That does not mean the pork or pig leather etc has germs on it, it should not be treated in such a way.

If you eat pork i will not consider you dirty - pork is only "dirty" for me, because of my religion. Even within my religion is it permit-able for me to eat it if it is a matter of life or death.

It is fine for me, or other Muslims to shake hands with you (though in our culture women do not touch men they are not related to, if it is not necessary). Nobody will touch your hands if they are covered in food, but that is the same for everyone. If your hand is in a normal clean state, just because you eat pork does not make you a pig...lol

I routinely eat lunch with colleagues who eat different kinds of meals. sometimes those meals will be pork or other pig meats, it makes no difference to me. It should make no difference to other Muslims either.

On occasion i also will travel with work people to have lunch at a a restaurant (birthdays, or work parties) and my colleagues will drink alcohol and i will not. I will avoid visiting places where alcohol is served for non work social events for two reasons;

1. It is awkward being the only sober person in a tavern full of drunks
2. It is advised that Muslims avoid temptation. Society in the UK have social events centered around enjoying an alcoholic drink. In these social events there can be pressure to participate, therefore where possible i avoid such events. I do attend work social events at places where alcohol is served because colleagues continue to behave in a professional manner and the level of alcohol consumed doesn't lead to drunkenness.

as far as i know, vegetarians will seat n eat with meat-eaters. In fact, there are Chinese 'by-personal choice' vegetarians.

Muslims would not.

here's a real life example:

There are 2 fridges at my workplace pantry. 1 of them has a prominent hand-written sign pasted on it that says 'halal food only'. My company had to install 2 fridges instead of 1- simply to accomodate muslims. Singapore's Navy has no Muslim officers or sailors serving on ships- because there is insufficient ktichen or dining space to support them.

Not only that, Singapore's K9 unit for search and rescue teams do not have muslim offciers as well- simply because Muslims cannot touch dogs.

Muslims cannot do this, Muslims cannot do that.

This to me- is a blatant 'clash' of culture.

That is the culture of those Muslims, not the culture of Islam. At my workplace we have 1 drink. My food is inside a container, just like everyone else's. As long as my food is not mixed with anyone elses, we don't have a problem. That scenario is easy to avoid because food is inside containers.

The idea that Muslims cannot touch dogs is another misconception. Do you think we don't have dogs in our countries, or our homes? It is true that the saliva of dogs is considered a ritual impurity. If a Muslims is licked by a dog, they are required to perform ablution before praying (it's all good hygiene for everyone to wash their hands if a dog licks them), but that doesn't mean we can't touch dogs or use them for work.


Let me tell you something you will find interesting, i certainly do.

The literacy rate in Muslim countries is often quite low (particularly in the poorer countries) so people don't actually study the religion, rather they learn the acts of worship. The thinking behind it is much the same as a poor farmers son learning how to grow crops, instead of learning mathematics.

Where Muslims are more educated, the focus is nearly always on the traditional subjects (maths, science, etc), not religion. We are severally limited in religious scholars (or scholars of any kind really). Our chaplains are poorly paid and anyone who has better job prospects, does something other than becoming a chaplain (imam as we call them).

When you mix this all together you get;
- communities with low levels of literacy
- communities who give great reverence to religion
- communities who don't have an in-depth understanding of said religion
- a lack of subject matter experts
- teachers who are doing so because they cant get better employment, not because of dedication to teaching

This is what leads to stupid ideas like Muslims cannot touch dogs.

It still doesn't explain how this is a clash though, what makes you think this leads to something that is hostile?

 

[GS Zhou]

For stupid people this is a problem, for sensible people this is not a problem. Unfortunately the world has many stupid people.

From a religious point of view, pork is considered unpure - so to eat or touch any product made from the pig invalidates ritual cleanliness. What this means is, before we pray we should perform an ablution. That does not mean the pork or pig leather etc has germs on it, it should not be treated in such a way.

If you eat pork i will not consider you dirty - pork is only "dirty" for me, because of my religion. Even within my religion is it permit-able for me to eat it if it is a matter of life or death.

It is fine for me, or other Muslims to shake hands with you (though in our culture women do not touch men they are not related to, if it is not necessary). Nobody will touch your hands if they are covered in food, but that is the same for everyone. If your hand is in a normal clean state, just because you eat pork does not make you a pig...lol

I routinely eat lunch with colleagues who eat different kinds of meals. sometimes those meals will be pork or other pig meats, it makes no difference to me. It should make no difference to other Muslims either.

On occasion i also will travel with work people to have lunch at a a restaurant (birthdays, or work parties) and my colleagues will drink alcohol and i will not. I will avoid visiting places where alcohol is served for non work social events for two reasons;

1. It is awkward being the only sober person in a tavern full of drunks
2. It is advised that Muslims avoid temptation. Society in the UK have social events centered around enjoying an alcoholic drink. In these social events there can be pressure to participate, therefore where possible i avoid such events. I do attend work social events at places where alcohol is served because colleagues continue to behave in a professional manner and the level of alcohol consumed doesn't lead to drunkenness.

thanks to your reply. I very much appreciate it.

Just as you said, pork or not should not be a problem to wise people. But we can not expect we talk and work with wise people all the time.

I personally do have some unpleasant experience with some Chinese Muslims, who think I'm dirty because I eat pork; who doesn't want to shake hands with me (my hands are washed and clean, I promise), because "your skin and sweat have the ingredients from pigs", that's what they said to me; who does not allow me to eat pork if we sit in the same table for lunch.

Initially I felt embarrassed; later angry; but after a while, I talked to myself: better keep a certain distance to these guys.

I hope you can understand my feeling.

 

[313ghazi]

thanks to your reply. I very much appreciate it.

Just as you said, pork or not should not be a problem to wise people. But we can not expect we talk and work with wise people all the time.

I personally do have some unpleasant experience with some Chinese Muslims, who think I'm dirty because I eat pork; who doesn't want to shake hands with me (my hands are washed and clean, I promise), because "your skin and sweat have the ingredients from pigs", that's what they said to me; who does not allow me to eat pork if we sit in the same table for lunch.

Initially I felt embarrassed; later angry; but after a while, I talked to myself: better keep a certain distance to these guys.

I hope you can understand my feeling.

Unfortunately if people are uneducated, or even lack the decency to have manners and be polite to someone - then it is best to avoid such people.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

That is the culture of those Muslims, not the culture of Islam. At my workplace we have 1 drink. My food is inside a container, just like everyone else's. As long as my food is not mixed with anyone elses, we don't have a problem. That scenario is easy to avoid because food is inside containers.

Im sorry but what u describe do not match what is typical here in Singapore. I forgot to mention there are TWO microwave ovens in the pantry too; n u guessed it- 1 is for muslims and the other is for non-muslims. This is not to mention that Singapore's muslims are moderate n modern muslims- google this yourself.

The idea that Muslims cannot touch dogs is another misconception. Do you think we don't have dogs in our countries, or our homes? It is true that the saliva of dogs is considered a ritual impurity. If a Muslims is licked by a dog, they are required to perform ablution before praying (it's all good hygiene for everyone to wash their hands if a dog licks them), but that doesn't mean we can't touch dogs or use them for work.

Again, what u described do not match the situation here in Singapore. I(and we) live amongst muslims. It is not a misconception at all- The muslims here cannot touch dogs-I come into contact with muslims everyday. Even my neighbourhood barber is a muslim. there's no way u can evade this fact.

Where Muslims are more educated, the focus is nearly always on the traditional subjects (maths, science, etc), not religion. We are severally limited in religious scholars (or scholars of any kind really). Our chaplains are poorly paid and anyone who has better job prospects, does something other than becoming a chaplain (imam as we call them).

When you mix this all together you get;
- communities with low levels of literacy
- communities who give great reverence to religion
- communities who don't have an in-depth understanding of said religion
- a lack of subject matter experts
- teachers who are doing so because they cant get better employment, not because of dedication to teaching

This is what leads to stupid ideas like Muslims cannot touch dogs.

i repeat: Muslims cannot touch dogs- this is what i can observe in my 32 years of life being born n bred here on this tiny tropical island. Unless u r telling me Singaporean muslims r not 'true muslims' or 'educated muslims'.

It still doesn't explain how this is a clash though, what makes you think this leads to something that is hostile?

i wouldnt use 'hostile'- just uncomfortableness and awkwardness.

Singapore's Navy has no Muslim officers or sailors serving on ships- because there is insufficient ktichen or dining space to support them.

http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/malays-deployed-in-the-saf-as-sailors-ng-eng-hen

SINGAPORE- A person is deployed in a sensitive unit in the Singapore Armed Forces based on his ability and beliefs to ensure that he is not a security risk, not on his race, said Defence Minister Ng Eng Hen on Monday night.

He also revealed that the SAF has started to deploy Malay servicemen onboard ships as sailors who will go out to sea. Previously, Malays in the navy were only deployed as "sea soldiers", who primarily patrolled naval bases.

Dr Ng was speaking to a 200-strong crowd of students and academics in a forum that was organised by the National University of Singapore and the Government's feedback arm Reach.

Responding to a question on a perceived bias against Malays in the SAF and why they have been excluded from the Navy until now, Dr Ng said it was a "practical issue" of having halal-certified kitchens onboard ships. "(This is) because in a confined space, it is hard to have a halal kitchen. If you spend months out at sea, it is difficult."

But provisions have been made for Malay Muslims who are willing to serve, said Dr Ng. "So we made and found some accommodation and started to have Malays in the navy as well, if the person is willing."

He also reiterated that Malays now serve in the army, navy and air force, adding that with Singapore's small population, the SAF does not discriminate against anyone and promotes its servicemen based on their ability.




Unfortunately, there are still no Muslim sailors serving on Republic of Singapore's Naval ships.

Despite Muslims being a minority here in Singapore, we are the 1s that have to accomodate them(not the other way around). By rejecting to blend in with the masses- Muslims have already created a 'us vs them' mentality in society

 

[313ghazi]

Im sorry but what u describe do not match what is typical here in Singapore. I forgot to mention there are TWO microwave ovens in the pantry too; n u guessed it- 1 is for muslims and the other is for non-muslims. This is not to mention that Singapore's muslims are moderate n modern muslims- google this yourself.



Again, what u described do not match the situation here in Singapore. I(and we) live amongst muslims. It is not a misconception at all- The muslims here cannot touch dogs-I come into contact with muslims everyday. Even my neighbourhood barber is a muslim. there's no way u can evade this fact.



i repeat: Muslims cannot touch dogs- this is what i can observe in my 32 years of life being born n bred here on this tiny tropical island. Unless u r telling me Singaporean muslims r not 'true muslims' or 'educated muslims'.



i wouldnt use 'hostile'- just uncomfortableness and awkwardness.

I guess i am telling you that the Muslims you interact with in Singapore are creating unnecessary requirements for themselves. I will not call them unproper or uneducated, because that is impolite. The dog thing is actually common even in the UK. I grew up thinking gods were unclean until i started learning my religion from educated scholars and not from word of mouth.

Also something else, Muslims should not keep dogs as pets. We are permitted to keep dogs as something to use (like guide dogs, or guard dogs, or sheep dogs etc), but not as pets because it is said that angels avoid such homes. That is not a logical stance - we cannot prove the existence of angels, that is a religious stance.

In the UK in our family home we don't have a dog, we don't need one. In Pakistan in our family home we have 2 dogs, because we live in a rural area and need them for security.

The halal kitchen thing is different. Muslims should not eat food which is prepared with non halal ingredients or vessels which have contained non halal ingredients (unless they have been washed). That indeed does cause inconvenience, especially in a confined area like a warship.

Also i'm glad you dont think of clash of cultures as a matter of hostility, but rather of awkwardness. I absolutely agree that at times it can be awkward.