Chinese Navy (PLAN) News & Discussions

[j20blackdragon]

The Izumos are all-in-one. Can function as a helo carrier, can eventually function as a light carrier (for future F-35B variants; she can carry up to 28 aircraft, lol), can also function as a troop transport, can function as a destroyer (well, more like a Super Cruiser, lol) as offensive firepower can be easily installed; ASROCs, ASMs, AAMs.

But no well deck. Too bad. Your daddy won't let you build a well deck.

 

[Aepsilons]

But no well deck. Too bad. Your daddy won't let you build a well deck.

View attachment 193724

Well decks are for LHD, the Izumo and Hyugas are not LHDs, they are Light Carriers.

As for well decks, we have those in our Osumi LHD/ helo carriers:

 

[j20blackdragon]

The Ōsumi class was designed in the 90s and only 3 were built. How do you expect to get off your island and invade someone with just 3? How come Japan doesn't build a proper LHD like the Wasp class when you have all the technology to do so? Is it because your daddy said no?

 

[Aepsilons]

Who said we're going to invade anyone? We are for peace and stability !

 

[j20blackdragon]

Who said we're going to invade anyone? We are for peace and stability !

China has a proper modern LPD with a well deck.

China has amphibious assault vehicles that can take a beach.

China has a real aircraft carrier. The hull is Ukrainian. Everything else is Chinese.

China has J-15.

China has the option of a navalized FC-31.

Just face the facts. Japan is stuck on an island and your daddy won't let you build what you need.

 

[Aepsilons]

Good for China !

 

[Genesis]

Well decks are for LHD, the Izumo and Hyugas are not LHDs, they are Light Carriers.

As for well decks, we have those in our Osumi LHD/ helo carriers:

In today's world, I feel anything less than 200 billion dollars a year, you are essentially a supporting character.

Japan is powerful, but its role is very limited.

Light Carriers, sure, but most countries have more or less 20-50 4th gen fighters, and until F-35 comes on the scene, it really reduces the effectiveness of a light carrier.

LHD is good, but it's function isn't quite the same as a LPD, hence America has both, Japan needs at least triple it's spending to be an independent power. Well by that I mean what you are envisioning, able to take on missions by yourself.

At the moment only the US can do independent missions, it's really a 1% club, you need hundreds of billions a year, just to play.


Either way, I don't feel China needs the same, until we reach at least 20,000 per capita nominal, as living standard is far more important.

 

[mike2000]

China has a proper modern LPD with a well deck.

China has amphibious assault vehicles that can take a beach.

China has a real aircraft carrier. The hull is Ukrainian. Everything else is Chinese.

China has J-15.

China has the option of a navalized FC-31.

Just face the facts. Japan is stuck on an island and your daddy won't let you build what you need.

LOOOL you are the most powerful country in the world MIGHTY DRAGON. seem like you are the chinese version of my good friend niceguy

Good for China !

I like your compusure Nohonji san. Im sure if it was any other members on here, this thread would have turned in a troll fest by now.lool 1 of a kind u.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Other people are selling? At our price and quality? Or at all? Or at that quantity? Find them. You can't because there is no other place. That's like saying because Walmart sells crap and non essential things, if they disappear overnight everything is cool.

The West or anyone else doesn't have enough capital to build another China, China has HSR, other countries doesn't, seems like it doesn't matter, but it frees up other tracks for cheaper and faster transport cost. China has a huge and growing domestic market, and factories bigger than cities, how are you going to find the workers, the management staff, and on that scale.

I haven't really read the thread far back enough to understand what this argument is all about, but taking your post at face value:

1) Can the US survive without China? Yes. Our MNCs will simply relocate their manufacturing operations to other low-cost countries, or bring manufacturing back home (newly competitive with extremely low energy costs, increased robotics, and 3D printing). In addition, exports only comprise 14 percent of US GDP, and we run a severe trade deficit with China. In a sense, that means a disruption of trade with China would help our GDP from a purely mathematical point of view.

2) Does the US want China to collapse? Absolutely not, and there's a reason why the populists always call for China to be sanctioned for currency manipulation or IP theft, but the elites never do anything about it. That's because there is still a lot of money to be made by trading with China. As with #1, we could survive without China, but there is a difference between surviving and thriving. I choose thriving, thank you very much. Remember, we prefer to measure per capita GDP in PPP because it accounts for cost of living, and cheap imports from China reduce the cost of living. We might be able to pay more for more expensive alternatives, but the market has spoken: when given a choice, outside of a thin sliver of the elite, consumers prefer to pay less at a slight cost to quality, rather than pay more for higher quality. That's China's forte. If it weren't so, Japan would be the factory of the world, not China.

3) China is currently difficult to replace (i.e. why haven't we already moved manufacturing elsewhere?) for three reasons:

a) China has a disregard for human rights not found elsewhere. Chinese labor can be worked for longer, at lower wages, and at a scale that cannot be replicated. Good luck working Indonesian labor in the toxic conditions in which Chinese labor works, living in dorms so they can be summoned to the factor floor in a moment's notice. Not going to happen without riots. Incidentally, this is also the reason why manufacturing hasn't already transferred back to the US, since all of our other advantages (cheap energy, relatively good infrastructure, rule of law, proximity to the home market, etc.) would make us more attractive than China. But labor is a big issue, and until labor can be sufficiently replaced by robotics, it will remain China's ultimate weapon.

b) China has already built the manufacturing ecosystem (factories, suppliers, electrical grid, transport infrastructure) to make it an efficient manufacturing hub. The costs are sunk. To replicate this environment will take much investment and time. It can be done, but why spend the money if we have access to China?

c) China has a huge population and a huge economy in its own right, now. Why sacrifice the profits that this market can provide for the sake of non-allies (e.g. Vietnam) or resentful/non-dependable allies who won't even spend for their own defense (e.g. the Philippines)?

To the 30 years comment: no one knows what the world will look like in 30 years, so let's not waste time bragging about the size of our crystal balls.

 

[j20blackdragon]

In today's world, I feel anything less than 200 billion dollars a year, you are essentially a supporting character.

Japan is powerful, but its role is very limited.

Light Carriers, sure, but most countries have more or less 20-50 4th gen fighters, and until F-35 comes on the scene, it really reduces the effectiveness of a light carrier.

LHD is good, but it's function isn't quite the same as a LPD, hence America has both, Japan needs at least triple it's spending to be an independent power. Well by that I mean what you are envisioning, able to take on missions by yourself.

At the moment only the US can do independent missions, it's really a 1% club, you need hundreds of billions a year, just to play.


Either way, I don't feel China needs the same, until we reach at least 20,000 per capita nominal, as living standard is far more important.

Japan's helicopter carriers are worthless without AH-1Z, AV-8B, and F-35B. The US won't sell any of the aforementioned aircraft to Japan.

 

[Aepsilons]

Japan's helicopter carriers are worthless without AH-1Z, AV-8B, and F-35B. The US won't sell any of the aforementioned aircraft to Japan.

 

[jhungary]

In today's world, I feel anything less than 200 billion dollars a year, you are essentially a supporting character.

Japan is powerful, but its role is very limited.

Light Carriers, sure, but most countries have more or less 20-50 4th gen fighters, and until F-35 comes on the scene, it really reduces the effectiveness of a light carrier.

LHD is good, but it's function isn't quite the same as a LPD, hence America has both, Japan needs at least triple it's spending to be an independent power. Well by that I mean what you are envisioning, able to take on missions by yourself.

At the moment only the US can do independent missions, it's really a 1% club, you need hundreds of billions a year, just to play.


Either way, I don't feel China needs the same, until we reach at least 20,000 per capita nominal, as living standard is far more important.

you talked as if you know well enough to know why country need LHA, LHD and LPD on a different account.

If you can tell me what is a LHD, LPD and LHA, then you would know why the JMSDF only have LSD/LST and LHA (The one they called DD)

 

[Pangu]

It would be more interesting to discuss why does the navy developed the way it does, then to compare ship ot ship, weapons to weapons. Certainly, objectively speaking, in no way can our PLAN compare to the JMDF right now.

What is exciting is every up & coming nations are developing their navy, the Indians, the Indonesians, etc, partcularly they are Asian nations. What is the trajectory of Asian naval developement & it's influence in regional & global geopolitics?

 

[Aepsilons]

In today's world, I feel anything less than 200 billion dollars a year, you are essentially a supporting character.

Japan is powerful, but its role is very limited.

Light Carriers, sure, but most countries have more or less 20-50 4th gen fighters, and until F-35 comes on the scene, it really reduces the effectiveness of a light carrier.

LHD is good, but it's function isn't quite the same as a LPD, hence America has both, Japan needs at least triple it's spending to be an independent power. Well by that I mean what you are envisioning, able to take on missions by yourself.

At the moment only the US can do independent missions, it's really a 1% club, you need hundreds of billions a year, just to play.


Either way, I don't feel China needs the same, until we reach at least 20,000 per capita nominal, as living standard is far more important.

Japan does not have an interventionist policy nor do we have multitude of overseas bases. We have no design to play a role of 'global police' or such. It does not serve our interest to commit such resources --- nevertheless, the size of our navy is proportional to our maritime domain. Japan is a vast Archipelago --- We have over 6,500 islands (all but 400 are inhabited), we have a vast maritime area of 4,479,358 square miles ! Hence we will, naturally, have a sizeable navy.

 

[j20blackdragon]

Japan is a paper tiger. The primary weakness of the JMSDF is lack of offensive power. Surface ships look good on paper but have no Tomahawk. Helicopter carriers look impressive but have no offensive attack aircraft of any kind. Diesel-electric submarines are slow and have limited range. Japan has no nuclear submarine program at all. You can't win a war with defense only. Thus the JMSDF is nothing more than a support navy for daddy USN.