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Chinese J-20 a powerful competitor to American F-22 & Russian T-50

Clearly the rules of arguments are not as finely tuned in a authoritarian state with no lineage of healthy and rational debate. I would trust an F-16 if it was made by Lockheed Martin - irrespective of whether it was made in USA, China or Timbaktoo.

The reasons those brands choose production line China is cheap labor not technology know-how because they provide you with the technology know how. Perhaps they don't teach basics of globalization in China but look it up.

Really? Does Haier have the same brand equity as a Sony or a Samsung?

I spent some time reading the Bharat Defence forum and I have to say I've found new respect for Indian posters here. No hate speeches, EnGrish jokes, and only referring to China as Panda.

Yes, you are right, brand equity takes 10+ years to build. Samsung did it by eating Sony's lunch during the analog to digital conversion.
 
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lol``your logic on economy is extremly laughable, you better educate yourself on this matter. brands setting up production line is because of cheap labour?? lol so by your logic all the brands should moving to africa and india, since they are way much cheapter than chinese labour. technological know-how isnt something you can trian the local within short period of time```it takes good quality primary education, higher education and skilling trainings.

its like if you gave advanced mathematic exam answers to a pilpul, he/she wouldnt even find the questions to those answers respectively. Whenever a well established brand trying to outsource production, cost is one of the factors but also other factors need to be taken in consideration, for example, the infrastructure, the labour market flexibility, higher education systems and skill training cost, and the technology readiness.

developed economies tend to have very flexible labour as they went through good primary and higher education stages and the sociaty can also provide sophisticated skill training programs. but most africa countries and also india's labour market is very unflexible and the training provided in those countries are low (according to 2010 nation competitiveness report, it categorised india as primative factor-driven economy still one step away from efficiency-driven economy like China and 3 steps away from innovation-driven economy like U.S)

so your point of brands moving to china are because of its cheap labour are absolutely ground less and shows your are very ignorant in terms of basic economcial principles and lack of common sense`

and also you brought political aganda into almost every single argument which makes all your points lack of creditability```

India is 2 steps away from China. It has not even begun the factor to efficiency transition.
 
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i have a question...will China offer this plane to Pakistan sometime later?and whats the approx price per unit>
 
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i have a question...will China offer this plane to Pakistan sometime later?and whats the approx price per unit>

Pakistan has a single engine doctrine, so I doubt it will purchase twin engine fighters.

However, a single engine 5th generation stealth fighter called the J-2X is currently under development, and it is meant for export. Pakistan might take interest in that.
 
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Pakistan has a single engine doctrine, so I doubt it will purchase twin engine fighters.

However, a single engine 5th generation stealth fighter called the J-2X is currently under development, and it is meant for export. Pakistan might take interest in that.
Where is this supposed "single engine" doctrine coming from? This is a myth that kept on getting repeated over and over. Both J-6 and A-5 that recently retired from PAF inventory were twin engine aircrafts.

And where is this supposed J-2X you speak of? Did you come up with that one too? In that case I got a J-3X, J-4X, J-5X in my head too.
 
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China-Russia have no major disagreements. Here's to China-Russia friendship.

I think not all Chinese agree with this. On some Chinese forums I've seen some interesting cards. Where in the Chinese colors were painted over some of the Russian territories.
In China, there exists at least one neighbor to which it has no territorial claims (covert or overt)? I do not dramatize about this. Russia has many neighbors and plenty of cross-border disputes. Many of which lasted for centuries. If we consider the real Russia and China may be allies on only one issue. This is squeezing the U.S. out of a total area of residence. I do not believe in the possibility of a major war but the attempts of military pressure and provocations do not exclude the (already have a pretty extensive experience).
 
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The highest resolution J-20 photo thus far

1304170291_42699.jpg

Looks like a condor with canards.
 
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Where is this supposed "single engine" doctrine coming from? This is a myth that kept on getting repeated over and over. Both J-6 and A-5 that recently retired from PAF inventory were twin engine aircrafts.

And where is this supposed J-2X you speak of? Did you come up with that one too? In that case I got a J-3X, J-4X, J-5X in my head too.

The single engine doctrine, officially known as AFDP-2019, is a document detailing the procurement requirements for the Pakistani Air Force. It is not a very old document and it requires that all combat aircraft in the Pakistani Air Force be single engined. That's one of the reasons why I highly doubt Pakistan will go for the J-20.

The J-2X, if is as reported, will be coming from CAC, the same producer of the J-20. This was both mentioned by a Russian newspaper and Huitong (even though you wouldn't care what he says) which it quoted. It seems that it will be mainly geared for export, so whether the PLAAF purchases it is entirely up to the future of the J-10 series.

Deagel.com also mentions a single engine stealth fighter.

http://www.deagel.com/Strike-and-Fighter-Aircraft/J-20_a002624001.aspx

J_20_Stealth_Fighter_news.jpg


If I had "come up" with these aircraft, then the PLAAF would be inducting the J-500X.
 
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The single engine doctrine, officially known as AFDP-2019, is a document detailing the procurement requirements for the Pakistani Air Force. It is not a very old document and it requires that all combat aircraft in the Pakistani Air Force be single engined. That's one of the reasons why I highly doubt Pakistan will go for the J-20.
I like to see the passage where it requires all combat aircrafts to be single engined.

The J-2X, if is as reported, will be coming from CAC, the same producer of the J-20. This was both mentioned by a Russian newspaper and Huitong (even though you wouldn't care what he says) which it quoted. It seems that it will be mainly geared for export, so whether the PLAAF purchases it is entirely up to the future of the J-10 series.

Deagel.com also mentions a single engine stealth fighter.

J-20 / J-14, J-XX

If I had "come up" with these aircraft, then the PLAAF would be inducting the J-500X.
So your information came from a rumour mill. Great.
 
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lol``your logic on economy is extremly laughable, you better educate yourself on this matter. brands setting up production line is because of cheap labour?? lol so by your logic all the brands should moving to africa and india, since they are way much cheapter than chinese labour. technological know-how isnt something you can trian the local within short period of time```it takes good quality primary education, higher education and skilling trainings.

its like if you gave advanced mathematic exam answers to a pilpul, he/she wouldnt even find the questions to those answers respectively. Whenever a well established brand trying to outsource production, cost is one of the factors but also other factors need to be taken in consideration, for example, the infrastructure, the labour market flexibility, higher education systems and skill training cost, and the technology readiness.

developed economies tend to have very flexible labour as they went through good primary and higher education stages and the sociaty can also provide sophisticated skill training programs. but most africa countries and also india's labour market is very unflexible and the training provided in those countries are low (according to 2010 nation competitiveness report, it categorised india as primative factor-driven economy still one step away from efficiency-driven economy like China and 3 steps away from innovation-driven economy like U.S)

so your point of brands moving to china are because of its cheap labour are absolutely ground less and shows your are very ignorant in terms of basic economcial principles and lack of common sense`

and also you brought political aganda into almost every single argument which makes all your points lack of creditability```

Very well analised!

And I’d like to expand a bit along your line.

Labour cost is relatively trivial compared to the total cost as you correctly said.

There’re other more important factors as well that China possesses almost uniquely, vis-a-vis say the otehr 1 billion populace country India, with overwelming advantages such as :

(i) Labour education, average IQ, average character traits such as diligence, discipline (work ethics), attitudes/ self-motivation, etc. – decided by the culture and its underlying group genetics . These factors enable faster & better skill training on top of flexibility , better product quality control, and faster shift / ramp up of production lines to higher and/or similar/unsimilar product lines should the need arises when the market conditions call for, etc... by and large overall manufacturing process management (AND its underlying Opportunity Cost reflected by varies very valuable Options available to the manufacterer).

(ii) An equally important , or perhaps even much more important, factor is the location of the entire Product Value Chain : from availability of raw materials, sub contractors, govt policy/incentive (tax , accounting rules, redtapes , etc), infrastructures, energy security, transportation availability/ variety & relative costs, locations of corresponding product R&D and marketing/sales centres, degrees of sophistication of respective logistics operations along with wholesale & retail sectors, the size of the local market, proximity to existing end consumers and future potential market/s, ( the value chain) locations of direct competitors, etc, etc.


Take Sony as an example, most of Sony’s subcontractors are independent Chinese factories – there is a big chunk of Made-in-China actually inside almost any Sony product , even though the products themselves as a whole might be marked as Made-in-Japan.

Why Sony has to set up a shop in China, instead of Africa or India where labour costs are much cheaper? It is mainly because China can offer Sony entire value chain – e.g. it is reported that Sony has contracted close to 3,000 Chinese factories as subcontractors and most of them are located within a single province of China! Other factors aside, just imagine the cost effectiveness / overall efficiency that alone is to Sony. It is simply mind boggling when I knew this !

( It would be interesting to know how many of those do some subcontracting jobs for J-20. And no wonder that the sheer manufacturing quality of J -20, as this prototype shows, is obviously a league ahead of T-50)

And a big part of Sony’s product will be sold eventually in China apart from re-export to the North America and Europe.

That’s why it’s almost impossible for Sony to set up any significant factory in India however lower is the labour cost there, and likewise for most other Fortune 500 companies.

This is why Russia is already lagging ( far ? ) behind in electronics sector.

This is also why China is becoming so powerful on world stage that NO WAY India could dream to catch up with in BOTH quantity AND quality, not even remotely close.


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Your country is still importing chips manufactured by SMIC and TSMC. When Russia can manufacture as well as design its own chips come back to tell me. 0 Russian top 20 fabless companies (meaning sh*t at design) and 0 Russian top 20 foundries (meaning sh*t at manufacture) what does that mean for Russian electronics in general?

Russia has 0 top 10 chemical companies, 1 top 10 steel company, yet 4 top 20 oil companies. I think this reflects where your country is heading.

I respect Russia greatly but please be realistic. There's many ways Russia is superior such as engines.

Recently wanted to respond to one of the Chinese participants of the forum on a number of economic issues. Even started to write but in the process changed his mind. Answer categorically - yes, no, you're wrong? Sounds pretty is not polite. If you explain your position - is too great amount.
Argue about the state of the economy in Russia without perspective. In advance of any document given by someone here as an argument can be regarded as not wealthy. To judge the real situation in Russia you need:
1. Born and grow up in the USSR
2. Surviving the collapse of the early 90's
3. Live in modern Russia.
Discuss Tales of journalists or outright propaganda is a waste of time.
 
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It surely reminds me of Will Smith's Independence Day when that thing flies over a tree top!

Hold tight, Martians are coming! :woot:

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Recently wanted to respond to one of the Chinese participants of the forum on a number of economic issues. Even started to write but in the process changed his mind. Answer categorically - yes, no, you're wrong? Sounds pretty is not polite. If you explain your position - is too great amount.
Argue about the state of the economy in Russia without perspective. In advance of any document given by someone here as an argument can be regarded as not wealthy. To judge the real situation in Russia you need:
1. Born and grow up in the USSR
2. Surviving the collapse of the early 90's
3. Live in modern Russia.
Discuss Tales of journalists or outright propaganda is a waste of time.

I agree. It is hard for foreigners to understand Russia deeply. However we should both be aware of our country's limitations. I admit Russia is far superior in jet engines. We all know that. I'm contesting your claim that Russia is superior in electronics which I have plenty of evidence for.

Speeder:

The situation in India is so bad, without a negative wage (Indians paying companies to work for them!) a product cannot be made in India.
 
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The single engine doctrine, officially known as AFDP-2019, is a document detailing the procurement requirements for the Pakistani Air Force. It is not a very old document and it requires that all combat aircraft in the Pakistani Air Force be single engined. That's one of the reasons why I highly doubt Pakistan will go for the J-20.

The J-2X, if is as reported, will be coming from CAC, the same producer of the J-20. This was both mentioned by a Russian newspaper and Huitong (even though you wouldn't care what he says) which it quoted. It seems that it will be mainly geared for export, so whether the PLAAF purchases it is entirely up to the future of the J-10 series.

Deagel.com also mentions a single engine stealth fighter.


The division of tactical aviation in Russia.
1. Front-line bomber - Su-24, 34
2. Heavy fighter - the Su-27 variants, MiG-25/31 (PAK-FA)
3. Light Fighter - options MiG29 (?)
4. Stormtrooper - options Su25
Information on Chinese ground attack aircraft (not converted, and specially created)?
 
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