China To Induct JF-17 Thunder into Its Air Force: President Mamnoon Hussain

[Genesis]

Hi,

The problem is that China is spread too thin. If it had 400 to 500 su 30' s or j 11' s and another 400 to 500 J10's, things would be very interesting.

China can hardly deploy one third of its frontline aircraft, the rest will be covering its flanks. For the Taiwanese they know that they would only have a small window of opportunity to inflict as much damage on the Chinese aircraft before it's airfields are targeted by the ground strike missiles.

Truthfully--- China is in a woeful position. With India on one side, Taiwan, Japan, Vietnam. China is not the monster that people claim it to be.

The trick that the Chinese played on the Russians by not fulfilling the order of the aircraft has backfired for China. Power play and power positioning did not wait for China to achieve its military acquisitions. Countries like Philippines and Vietnam are not afraid to back down from China at this time. It is only the u s holding them back, because they don't want another conflict at this time.

Irfan,

The comment about the blk 52 f 16 was just meant to show that even Pakistani frontline is more advanced than anything that China has and all this hype that China has created, they are still woefully equipped.

F-16 E/F is similar to J-10B. Now could previous variants have more range and load? Yes, but only because we are so behind on engines, but the billions of investments seems to be paying off, as JF-17 engine will soon be Chinese. In terms of any others, J-10B has radar similar to E/F, if not better. Overall maneuverability is currently limited by engine, but will also be better.

Not sure if you know but AESA radar is a huge improvement, the previous generations are manual scanning, meaning like a fan they move from left to right, and it's one radar. AESA is a board with tons of mini radars. Basically a assembly of radars, it doesn't need to move, it can accurately and consistently track multiple targets, and if one or a few break, the rest will still function. This is a huge advantage over previous generation of fighters.

In terms of missiles, we are still in development, but only to America and Russia, our missiles are still better than pretty much anything everyone else uses. The wild card is France, UK, don't really follow their military much.

In terms of numbers, it's never an official number, though for a total of 650 fourth gen fighters seem right. Again the number is vastly limited by engines, this will improve as we become more self sufficient in Engine tech.

J-10B, J-11B, and other J-1x variants are being equipped with the latest in tech. Any claim of block 50 is better needs a reality check.

The Japanese media and American media claims are biased, but also based on fiction, aside from the fact, clearly from their article they don't follow the news as closely as we do, yet they claim things that nobody can possibliy know other than maybe intelligence agencies and Chinese military. Last time I checked the CIA doesn't share their info with amateur bloggers.

The only problem we face today is engines, that's a very big part, but everything else has been worked out. Mass investments are poured in, it's been made as a key technology development project by the central government, and believe me, everything that's made that list gets done, period.


As to your communist comment, Russia, Soviet, Nazi, imperial Japan, imperial Germany, pre-universal suffrage Britain, and tons of other top military nations are authoritarian or straight up dictatorship. Living in America you are ignoring world history if you don't actively look for it.

Land weapons of Soviet and Germans were vastly superior to their American counterparts. German subs of that time actually resemble the subs of TODAY, they are so revolutionary that they still play a role today in the principles of development.

What China lacked is a industrial base, educated populous, and economy to boot. We have all of that now, and our determination far out strips the Americans on military ambitions.

EDIT: to be fair current equipments US is still better, but a lot of exported fighters of of the 80s/90s variety and not current. We have the benefit of developing them recently. We don't even have active fifth gen fighters.

 

[Genesis]

Side note, in terms of training Chinese pilots flies about 200 hours annually from the latest PLAAF reports.

China has annual competition for golden helmets given to the winners of the engagements. If you are not Chinese you can't understand, but winning this thing is not just personal honor, it's group honor, it's honor for the entire division. Each year, pilots innovate new tactics and everything to become the best of the best.

China also is increasing every year the real combat simulations, not yet at an American level, but also not as far away as some thinks.

To claim Taiwan, Japan, any other non American, not sure Russia, country can take China because of A. quality of fighter, B. training is a joke and not a very informed joke.

Because we are not the reigning super power, we take Americans very seriously, if their pilots even sneezes we know about it, and analyze it, while the Americans may also pay attention to us, but it's with bias and thus they don't really have any accurate report on our capabilities, because they can never imagine we would be catching up, sounds ludicrous, how can a country that just 10 years ago was operating trash that American pilots haven't seen since the 80s.

 

[Secur]

Six pages of posts, and still no confirmation on whether the claim "China To Induct JF-17 Thunder into Its Air Force" is verifiably true or not.

Though I am not in the mood , I would say the President's word should be reliable enough , no ?

 

[SQ8]

Side note, in terms of training Chinese pilots flies about 200 hours annually from the latest PLAAF reports.

China has annual competition for golden helmets given to the winners of the engagements. If you are not Chinese you can't understand, but winning this thing is not just personal honor, it's group honor, it's honor for the entire division. Each year, pilots innovate new tactics and everything to become the best of the best.

China also is increasing every year the real combat simulations, not yet at an American level, but also not as far away as some thinks.

To claim Taiwan, Japan, any other non American, not sure Russia, country can take China because of A. quality of fighter, B. training is a joke and not a very informed joke.

Because we are not the reigning super power, we take Americans very seriously, if their pilots even sneezes we know about it, and analyze it, while the Americans may also pay attention to us, but it's with bias and thus they don't really have any accurate report on our capabilities, because they can never imagine we would be catching up, sounds ludicrous, how can a country that just 10 years ago was operating trash that American pilots haven't seen since the 80s.

As I mentioned before.. it was a trend in early 20th century to make fun of Japanese goods and equipment.. and think about their poor hardware.. yet.. the reality changed within 20 years.

Though I am not in the mood , I would say the President's word should be reliable enough , no ?

Depends on the Caliber of El Presidente.

 

[Secur]

Depends on the Caliber of El Presidente.

Come on , Oscar .

It actually makes the thing more reliable in my opinion , he has little ability to think or declare something on his own , taking into account his really limited education ( if any ) and hence had the chance to hear it from a reliable source and relay ?

 

[SQ8]

Come on , Oscar .

It actually makes the thing more reliable in my opinion , he has little ability to think or declare something on his own , taking into account his really limited education ( if any ) and hence had the chance to hear it from a reliable source and relay ?

How sure are we that he heard it correctly ..
even with the benefit of the doubt, I just dont see a place for the aircraft in the PLAAF ORBAT.. unless they really just want to buy it to maintain force numbers.. then it makes sense.

 

[Secur]

How sure are we that he heard it correctly ..
even with the benefit of the doubt, I just dont see a place for the aircraft in the PLAAF ORBAT.. unless they really just want to buy it to maintain force numbers.. then it makes sense.

That is a real problem with all the Bollingers and Daniels going in . I can see it , only in one way , they want to replace the old vintage aircraft with a low cost aircraft , only then will it make sense .

 

[VCheng]

Though I am not in the mood , I would say the President's word should be reliable enough , no ?

Actually, I do not believe him at all in this case.

 

[SQ8]

J-10B, J-11B, and other J-1x variants are being equipped with the latest in tech. Any claim of block 50 is better needs a reality check.

Here Ill have to disagree.. the latest in tech from where? china?
Let me give you an example.. I worked as a part signal processing programmer , part tester for a firm. Here we had US Harris radios( as a Benchmark..but less sophisticated on paper) .. Turkish ones.. and Chinese ones co-developed.
each ran very similar software as a test.. yet.. the Turkish ones performed the best, followed by the US ones.. and the Chinese ones, even though they supposedly had more power and performance than the US radios.. were unreliable and rarely met performance standards.

Now here is the question... why?
Because Chinese design is bad? NO
It is a simple issue with the production mentality and production quality control. The Turkish Radios had for e.g. ten faults in every 30 tests.... the Chinese had 27 in the same. Just because production quality was bad.. chipsets did not match.. the housings were not the same.. it was rubbish.

Yet, there were other systems brought in from China for another project.. and they ran almost as good as their western counterparts? Why? because perhaps the production control. and quality control on that factory had made it to the standards expected by most militaries today...and that is slowly hitting the PLAAF as well. They have realized that "one mission aircraft" are not the way to go. Equipment has to be reliable, it has to work exactly as advertized and has to protect the user. Which is why slowly but surely Chinese are catching up. In some cases with strict QC the Chinese surprise.. coming up with equipment that matches or outperforms its western counterparts.

However, they are not there yet. Things still fail more on Chinese systems than on western ones.. Its not that they are less sophisticated.. its that they dont live up to that sophistication. The J-10B may have a longer ranger and superior AESA radar on paper.. but the product RIGHT NOW.. at this moment...offers worse resolution than the APG-68-V(9) on the Block-52. How can I guess this? Because that is the story with all Chinese advancements.. they do worse before they actually get better.

As my final word on this, I will state that once the Chinese do master something.. say pulse Doppler mechanically steered radar.. it performs just as well as its western counterpart. And as an adition to my paragraph above.. I can also guess that the KLJ-10.. gives equal performance in air to air as the APG-68, while lagging a bit behind in Air to ground..and almost as reliable and effective as one of the best mechanically steered radars available.

 

[Genesis]

Here Ill have to disagree.. the latest in tech from where? china?
Let me give you an example.. I worked as a part signal processing programmer , part tester for a firm. Here we had US Harris radios( as a Benchmark..but less sophisticated on paper) .. Turkish ones.. and Chinese ones co-developed.
each ran very similar software as a test.. yet.. the Turkish ones performed the best, followed by the US ones.. and the Chinese ones, even though they supposedly had more power and performance than the US radios.. were unreliable and rarely met performance standards.

Now here is the question... why?
Because Chinese design is bad? NO
It is a simple issue with the production mentality and production quality control. The Turkish Radios had for e.g. ten faults in every 30 tests.... the Chinese had 27 in the same. Just because production quality was bad.. chipsets did not match.. the housings were not the same.. it was rubbish.

Yet, there were other systems brought in from China for another project.. and they ran almost as good as their western counterparts? Why? because perhaps the production control. and quality control on that factory had made it to the standards expected by most militaries today...and that is slowly hitting the PLAAF as well. They have realized that "one mission aircraft" are not the way to go. Equipment has to be reliable, it has to work exactly as advertized and has to protect the user. Which is why slowly but surely Chinese are catching up. In some cases with strict QC the Chinese surprise.. coming up with equipment that matches or outperforms its western counterparts.

However, they are not there yet. Things still fail more on Chinese systems than on western ones.. Its not that they are less sophisticated.. its that they dont live up to that sophistication. The J-10B may have a longer ranger and superior AESA radar on paper.. but the product RIGHT NOW.. at this moment...offers worse resolution than the APG-68-V(9) on the Block-52. How can I guess this? Because that is the story with all Chinese advancements.. they do worse before they actually get better.

As my final word on this, I will state that once the Chinese do master something.. say pulse Doppler mechanically steered radar.. it performs just as well as its western counterpart. And as an adition to my paragraph above.. I can also guess that the KLJ-10.. gives equal performance in air to air as the APG-68, while lagging a bit behind in Air to ground..and almost as reliable and effective as one of the best mechanically steered radars available.

China's latest tech is for all to see, you know why some radars on ships are round and not flat, because they haven't worked out the cooling yet. Chinese type 52D has flat radars.

Chinese radar system is one of the world's best, it's better than SU-35, engine on the other hand is not.

Chinese designs can be seen, it has been broken down countless times for why certain things are the way they are, and the advantages. Tons of coverage on American fighters, Japanese and Korean fighters.

Facts were given and comparisons were made. J-10 and up are truly worthy of the designation of J. Very capable fighters.

Chinese engines are known to have better endurance, better life span and all around better than a lot of Russian counter parts, probably not against their best yet, but for the ones powering their 4th and 4+ gen fighters, it is better, but to be fair more work was not put into it much this side of the 2010s.

The design is sound, but still needs work, but only the engine.

Everything else has applications elsewhere and have been tested and experienced in a multitude of sectors.


Now on to quality control, it's a problem, but has largely solved on more mass produced items, Engines is tough for everyone, that's a fact. But bad experience with Chinese company is not a valid comparison, first different companies, second circumstance, third there's more companies and employees than I have hair, so.....

 

[araz]

Oscae="Oscar, post: 5356364, member: 14956"]Here Ill have to disagree.. the latest in tech from where? china?
Let me give you an example.. I worked as a part signal processing programmer , part tester for a firm. Here we had US Harris radios( as a Benchmark..but less sophisticated on paper) .. Turkish ones.. and Chinese ones co-developed.
each ran very similar software as a test.. yet.. the Turkish ones performed the best, followed by the US ones.. and the Chinese ones, even though they supposedly had more power and performance than the US radios.. were unreliable and rarely met performance standards.

Now here is the question... why?
Because Chinese design is bad? NO
It is a simple issue with the production mentality and production quality control. The Turkish Radios had for e.g. ten faults in every 30 tests.... the Chinese had 27 in the same. Just because production quality was bad.. chipsets did not match.. the housings were not the same.. it was rubbish.

Yet, there were other systems brought in from China for another project.. and they ran almost as good as their western counterparts? Why? because perhaps the production control. and quality control on that factory had made it to the standards expected by most militaries today...and that is slowly hitting the PLAAF as well. They have realized that "one mission aircraft" are not the way to go. Equipment has to be reliable, it has to work exactly as advertized and has to protect the user. Which is why slowly but surely Chinese are catching up. In some cases with strict QC the Chinese surprise.. coming up with equipment that matches or outperforms its western counterparts.

However, they are not there yet. Things still fail more on Chinese systems than on western ones.. Its not that they are less sophisticated.. its that they dont live up to that sophistication. The J-10B may have a longer ranger and superior AESA radar on paper.. but the product RIGHT NOW.. at this moment...offers worse resolution than the APG-68-V(9) on the Block-52. How can I guess this? Because that is the story with all Chinese advancements.. they do worse before they actually get better.

As my final word on this, I will state that once the Chinese do master something.. say pulse Doppler mechanically steered radar.. it performs just as well as its western counterpart. And as an adition to my paragraph above.. I can also guess that the KLJ-10.. gives equal performance in air to air as the APG-68, while lagging a bit behind in Air to ground..and almost as reliable and effective as one of the best mechanically steered radars available.[/quote]
Oscar.
All that you have written is accepted without any reservations. We have had our share of problems with the JFT as well. At one time we heard of problems with the radar and the radio giving clutter to the extent that we even had to look outside for solutions. However the matter got resolved by the Chinese. The original batch production suffered from severe vibrations which again needed help from our friends. The point I am trying to make is that problems will occur, will be discovered and remedied. PAF will not purchase a commodity till it has assured itself of its quality and reliability. We challange our friends and to their credit they come up to the challange. This is how the rationship has developed. Now unless someone has accepted something that he should not have we should be allright. We dont have much of a choice in any case.
Regards
Araz

 

[bolo]

China is likely to induct some JF-17 Block IIIs when the WS-17 engine is ready for operational service。

Don't think China would go for a fighter without AESA henceforth。

Isn't JF 17 for export to Pak. Why would China induct these unless it's upgraded with 5th gen radar and engine?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

china is strong enough to with stand war from its immediate one of its neighbours which will never happen as it seems. in next 10-15 years it might surpass russian technology due to amount of R&D they are doing

in economics they say "everything remaining the same".. and then state the laws of economics. sadly here it cant apply because the assumption is that Russians are not doing any R & D , their PAKFA, Berkut, SU 37 Terminator shatters that assumption very badly.

 

[Superboy]

What would JF-17 be called in PLAAF? J-18?

 

[VCheng]

What would JF-17 be called in PLAAF? J-18?

FC-1. /10char.