China set to pull out of two railway projects

[Indos]

Yes brother - why not?

I did mention Indonesia in post #10 above.

I think Bangladesh will even pay premium to give business to PT INKA which has successful track record in Bangladesh. People are very happy with PT INKA coaches being used in our Railway.

At some point - PT INKA may help refurbish our old coach factories with equipment from Indonesia to help assembly (and eventual manufacture with parts) of Indonesian coaches locally. The demand for coaches locally has exceeded the threshold where it is profitable to assemble coaches from CKD parts.

Well, PT Inka is open to build factory in developing country if the local demand is large. It is stated by PT Inka Director himself.

 

[Indos]

Tourist destination region in Bangladesh like Sylhet IMO has potential to use battery powered tram from Inka.

 

[Bilal9]

The people who did the bidding are at fault here, just as pointed out in article its railway authority which might have inflated for kickbacks. With the Chinese contractor also goes their credit facility, they won't allow other contractors. Kickbacks have to be proved here if the gov wants to negotiate else if taken to litigation the gov wont have a case.
" China approved the China Railway Construction Bridge Engineering Bureau Group Limited (CRBG) as the contractor of the project. "

Well if the Chinese have these conditionalities then we have to look at other options. Can't hold their feet to the fire really.

Tourist destination region in Bangladesh like Sylhet IMO has potential to use battery powered tram from Inka.

Masha-Allah beautiful! Great looking option.

 

[fallstuff]

We can get very experienced older retired Project managers from Western countries, friendly Muslim countries like Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia or even Australia (for rail technology purposes). Of course some countries like Australia are more developed in Rail expertise. English skills are a must have.

These experts (as I have seen) usually have a great amount of expertise and experience over managing projects and most of them are PMP (Project Manager Certification) certified as well. We have a dearth of Project Management expertise locally somewhat and need to infuse new blood, considering how many mega projects are going on at the same time.

If we pay them good salaries (maybe similar to Dubai salaries), these 50+ older people can be easily employed locally (or even remotely, via zoom as we do nowadays), for technology transfer and supervision purposes.

This is what countries like Malaysia, Thailand and Singapore did, we can do the same.

A final note, I am sorry - I will not support hiring Indian consultants, especially Hindutva chest-beaters. They typically have interests in bringing in more business from India, which is not helpful. We have enough Sanghi Indians working in Bangladesh.

A local PDF West Bengal "expert" has recently claimed in a recent post (for example) that we in Bangladesh are uneducated and cannot run our country without expertise from India. This is what I'm talking about.

You know Intel, MS, Apple, and the likes of Google will cease to exist if it wasn't for the Indians !

Yes, that is the best way to go to learn about Project Management. You can hire these folks as advisors to guide you through, you learn all you can along the life of these projects.

Chinese builders are fast and on time. They didn't get there in an a day, and neither would Bangladesh.

 

[TOTUU]

Here is China's offer,

We finance the project, therefore
we will charge you three times the regular bid unlike other builders and
there is no competitive bidding.
And oh we bring the entire construction crew from china.

Do you believe in this? Would you sign such a contract? Would the Bangladeshi government sign such a contract? Would China sign such a contract? How much money does Bangladesh have that is worth it for China to do this? Why would China do this to Bangladesh?

China has done so much construction around the world that if China were to sign such contracts, China would never again sign contracts for infrastructure construction. Likewise, all of China's actions are under the close monitoring of the West. If there were such contracts, the Western media and various NGOs and institutions would certainly be making a lot of noise about them, instead of just relying on their mouths to smear China as they do now .


The world infrastructure construction market itself is very competitive, and China relies on price advantage and high-end technology in this market, and China takes over construction projects from developed countries to developing countries, all over the world.
And about construction workers, this is a rumor for many years, China's overseas construction projects are a large number of local people are employed, because the cost is lower, only those local people can not do the work will pay high prices from China to hire people. There are times when the schedule is very tight, only to hire Chinese workers to catch up.
There are many videos on the internet of infrastructure projects that China has taken over, you can watch them and the workers will be able to tell at a glance. The same can be seen at the construction sites of Chinese infrastructure projects in Bangladesh.


Watch the video inside the construction workers

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

Business is business. Bangladesh provided China with billions of $ of contracts over the decades. Its time Bangladesh start to figure out how to do the projects on their own. This does not mean end of working with Chines loans or companies, but to have some in-house companies with similar capabilities.
Its a shame we have the engineers and some willing politicians, just not the project management knowledge needed to put all these together.

Like you said, business is business, which in itself is a mutually beneficial process, if you think all day long that China is evil, the Bangladeshi government and the governments of other developing countries are stupid enough to sign those unreasonable contracts, then how else can you look at things objectively and rationally, your emotions are guided by some misinformation and wrong thinking process.

China sign these contracts now that it is being suppressed and suppressed by the entire Western world itself using all their power? With the U.S. global network surveillance capability and intelligence gathering ability, it is not difficult for Western media and NGOs to get a contract signed by China.

The global infrastructure market is an open market, and it is good for Bangladesh to receive projects abroad if they have the ability to do so. It is only in the past two decades that China has been receiving a large number of projects in other countries.

Infrastructure development, like many industries, has its highs and lows. Bangladesh to take such infrastructure projects abroad, BD can start with easy projects and then slowly progress. More difficult infrastructure projects will require higher technical skills, such as high-speed rail, nuclear power plants, subways, etc.

 

[fallstuff]

Do you believe in this? Would you sign such a contract? Would the Bangladeshi government sign such a contract? Would China sign such a contract? How much money does Bangladesh have that is worth it for China to do this? Why would China do this to Bangladesh?

China has done so much construction around the world that if China were to sign such contracts, China would never again sign contracts for infrastructure construction. Likewise, all of China's actions are under the close monitoring of the West. If there were such contracts, the Western media and various NGOs and institutions would certainly be making a lot of noise about them, instead of just relying on their mouths to smear China as they do now .


The world infrastructure construction market itself is very competitive, and China relies on price advantage and high-end technology in this market, and China takes over construction projects from developed countries to developing countries, all over the world.
And about construction workers, this is a rumor for many years, China's overseas construction projects are a large number of local people are employed, because the cost is lower, only those local people can not do the work will pay high prices from China to hire people. There are times when the schedule is very tight, only to hire Chinese workers to catch up.
There are many videos on the internet of infrastructure projects that China has taken over, you can watch them and the workers will be able to tell at a glance. The same can be seen at the construction sites of Chinese infrastructure projects in Bangladesh.


Watch the video inside the construction workers

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator


Like you said, business is business, which in itself is a mutually beneficial process, if you think all day long that China is evil, the Bangladeshi government and the governments of other developing countries are stupid enough to sign those unreasonable contracts, then how else can you look at things objectively and rationally, your emotions are guided by some misinformation and wrong thinking process.

China sign these contracts now that it is being suppressed and suppressed by the entire Western world itself using all their power? With the U.S. global network surveillance capability and intelligence gathering ability, it is not difficult for Western media and NGOs to get a contract signed by China.

The global infrastructure market is an open market, and it is good for Bangladesh to receive projects abroad if they have the ability to do so. It is only in the past two decades that China has been receiving a large number of projects in other countries.

Infrastructure development, like many industries, has its highs and lows. Bangladesh to take such infrastructure projects abroad, BD can start with easy projects and then slowly progress. More difficult infrastructure projects will require higher technical skills, such as high-speed rail, nuclear power plants, subways, etc.

I am not seeing this as China vs West, but more like what is most beneficial to Bangladesh. I am very much aware of World Bank and IMF soft loan financing options, and the strings they attach to the contracts.

So far the best financing option has been JICA, BD posters correct me if I am wrong.

I quoted from the article that the Chinese Construction Company was demanding much higher rates for per mile of construction. In some cases they were asking three times more than what some other builders are charging for similar projects. This company is also going to bring all the construction material from China. This will cost way more than procuring most materials locally. Chinese companies almost never hire any local talent above a day laborer.

So if you look at it rationally, this is simply a subprime deal from Bangladesh point of view at its present form. I hope both parties can negotiate a deal that can work for Bangladesh and China.

 

[TOTUU]

I am not seeing this as China vs West, but more like what is most beneficial to Bangladesh. I am very much aware of World Bank and IMF soft loan financing options, and the strings they attach to the contracts.

So far the best financing option has been JICA, BD posters correct me if I am wrong.

I quoted from the article that the Chinese Construction Company was demanding much higher rates for per mile of construction. In some cases they were asking three times more than what some other builders are charging for similar projects. This company is also going to bring all the construction material from China. This will cost way more than procuring most materials locally. Chinese companies almost never hires any local talent above a day laborer.

So if you look at it rationally, this is simply a subprime deal from Bangladesh point of view at its present form. I hope both parties can negotiate a deal that can work for Bangladesh and China.

There is no credibility to what you are saying. Can you tell me what kind of Bangladeshi government would sign a contract for 3 times the normal price. According to the information you said, Bangladesh is perfectly capable of signing a contract with its own company for a third of the price and the funds can be applied for from the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank.

Speaking of construction workers, did you watch the video I posted above? Did you know that day laborers are more expensive than permanent workers? What reason would a Chinese company have to hire higher priced Chinese workers? Chinese companies like all other companies like to hire cheaper workers so they make more money.If I sign a contract worth 1000 and it costs 100 for one of my friends to work for me , a local worker only costs 30, what reason do I need to hire my friend, wouldn't it be better if I could even let my friend do nothing and just get 70?

These words you say have been said countless times in the Western media, and they are themselves flawed lies, but there are many people who believe them.

For example, there's a rumor about plastic rice that I'm sure you've heard before! I'll even bet you believe this rumor.

The most ridiculous thing about these rumors is that even an 8 year old would find them irrational and unbelievable, but some people do believe them. For example, the contract is 3 times the price and no 8 year old would sign it, but there are a lot of people who believe their government would sign it.


Like I said above, China signs contracts for infrastructure construction all over the world, China is not going to give up the whole world market for one country's infrastructure contract, the market itself is very competitive and like you said, Bangladesh has many options and there will be many countries willing to take the project! China would not be so stupid to give up the whole world market for a contract that would make 3 times as much money, nor would the Bangladeshi government be stupid to sign such a contract.

People who believe in such contracts are themselves insulting the wisdom of both the Chinese and Bangladeshi governments.


The most beneficial for Bangladesh (and the most beneficial for China) is mutual benefit. Any unilateral gain is not the most beneficial. Just like a contract that allows one party to make 3 times as much money is something that is absolutely detrimental to both parties.

 

[Bilal9]

You know Intel, MS, Apple, and the likes of Google will cease to exist if it wasn't for the Indians !

Yes, that is the best way to go to learn about Project Management. You can hire these folks as advisors to guide you through, you learn all you can along the life of these projects.

Chinese builders are fast and on time. They didn't get there in an a day, and neither would Bangladesh.

Let me tell you about my view about Indian IT talent.

I spent a lot of time in Silicon Valley managing projects - I know what started the IT flooding from India in the late eighties. Indians working in US corporates started subcontracting work back to Indian IT programmers in India because of ONE factor - cost. And then the rest we know is history. US managers did not care about quality, all they cared about is cost, cost, cost. So what that the horribly coded software had bugs out the ying-yang, it was cheap to have the brownies work night and day to correct it. At the low wages Indians worked, it made sense.

You can Thank lazy American managers who saw this as an easy, cheap way to cut costs (hiring contractors from companies like INFOSYS instead of high priced IBM or Verizon who had mainly high-rate American citizens) and now Indians claim they are the IT superpower, who are actually 90% inexperienced cheap IT workers (new to the IT game), not geniuses. American hourly rates for programmers back in the day was around US$40 an hour while Indians used work for 10.

I have personally seen them getting chewed out all the time in front of me for the poor quality of their work (where it started to get embarrassing), and the English for most Indians nowadays is really bad, as suits inexperienced 'talent'.

Geniuses aren't coming out of India anymore.

Indians have a special talent for one thing though, they can take an inhumane amount of abuse and stay quiet, especially the inexperienced ones today. They understand the high stakes of the H1B game. I doubt any of us in Bangladesh and Pakistan with a modicum of self respect could take this much verbal abuse like Indians get in US IT roles and still keep a job. In other words, they are ideal order takers.

So - this is Indian H1B secret of success at "Intel, MS, Apple, and the likes of Google" like you said.

H1B's aren't even being hired anymore in the US. Only ones who were lucky enough to be sponsored and get Green Cards are hired.

Indians are inexpensive IT workforce, nothing more, nothing less. They will claim as usual they have some special talent over other groups but they really don't. If there was an equivalent Bangladeshi company like INFOSYS today, don't you think Bangladeshis would get jobs? All Indians are good at, is (sometimes better) English skills and padding resumes. Americans are easy to fool...

I will blame the lack of organizing skills and capabilities of us in Bangladesh and Pakistan - for Indians having us beat in this BPO game and exporting H1B's. However Bangladesh has the world's largest number of freelancers doing other things (650,000) and has 16% of the globe's online workers, while India has 24%. Bangladesh being one-eighth the size of India, this is not a small feat. However this is off topic.

If you do not believe me - ask some of your Bangladeshi friends in Silicon Valley, they will give you the scoop.

A freelancing boom is reshaping Bangladesh and its economy

Rapid digitalisation and a high rate of educated unemployment has made Bangladesh the second largest exporter of online labour.

theprint.in

Becoming the CEO of your own life

Three jobs switches and 15 years later, Shohel Ahmed rose to what he thought was the peak of his career as the head of human resources at a local conglomerate.

www.thedailystar.net

Back to the topic, yes it will take us a while to get to the level of Korea or even China as far as construction projects, but we do have to plan for it. Like brother @TOTUU said.

Some of the high prices of the bid may be attributed to the graft paid locally, I don't know.

When Koreans built the roads, buildings and infra in middle east and gulf countries they were in the same boat as we are today (as far as country, economy, exports) but look where they are now. We need good dedicated honest people who will watch our interests as a country, not sell-out people who watch other country's interests for whatever reason, bribe-takers or being fifth columnists.

Some people might say "Apnio-to Pakistan-er pa chaten?". I have seen people comment on this, regrettably, alluding at my behavior. This is coming mainly from Indian shills who have Bangladeshi flags or by Bangladeshi posters who do not understand my MO.

Well - India is doing $50 Billion a year of "faida uthana" game in Bangaldesh, Pakistan is not. That is enough reason.

 

[EasyNow]

There is no credibility to what you are saying. Can you tell me what kind of Bangladeshi government would sign a contract for 3 times the normal price. According to the information you said, Bangladesh is perfectly capable of signing a contract with its own company for a third of the price and the funds can be applied for from the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank.

Speaking of construction workers, did you watch the video I posted above? Did you know that day laborers are more expensive than permanent workers? What reason would a Chinese company have to hire higher priced Chinese workers? Chinese companies like all other companies like to hire cheaper workers so they make more money.If I sign a contract worth 1000 and it costs 100 for one of my friends to work for me , a local worker only costs 30, what reason do I need to hire my friend, wouldn't it be better if I could even let my friend do nothing and just get 70?

These words you say have been said countless times in the Western media, and they are themselves flawed lies, but there are many people who believe them.

For example, there's a rumor about plastic rice that I'm sure you've heard before! I'll even bet you believe this rumor.

The most ridiculous thing about these rumors is that even an 8 year old would find them irrational and unbelievable, but some people do believe them. For example, the contract is 3 times the price and no 8 year old would sign it, but there are a lot of people who believe their government would sign it.


Like I said above, China signs contracts for infrastructure construction all over the world, China is not going to give up the whole world market for one country's infrastructure contract, the market itself is very competitive and like you said, Bangladesh has many options and there will be many countries willing to take the project! China would not be so stupid to give up the whole world market for a contract that would make 3 times as much money, nor would the Bangladeshi government be stupid to sign such a contract.

People who believe in such contracts are themselves insulting the wisdom of both the Chinese and Bangladeshi governments.


The most beneficial for Bangladesh (and the most beneficial for China) is mutual benefit. Any unilateral gain is not the most beneficial. Just like a contract that allows one party to make 3 times as much money is something that is absolutely detrimental to both parties.

8 year old negotiated it or not, nothing is approved until it is signed off completely.

BD is exercising it's right to renegotiate and China has the right to walk away. What is so unbelievable about that?

And they are not looking to reduce costs by two thirds. We want a 15% reduction which is reasonable.

The fact is that there is no competitive bidding allowed, so obviously the financer has the monopoly to charge what they want. Do you believe, China will compete with itself and give BD a bargain?

As far as I see it, we are paying for it so we want a good deal.

China will be profiting interest from the loan. You are also going to profit from the construction work. I don't understand why China is being greedy trying to gouge extra profit on the prices.

 

[Bilal9]

8 year old negotiated it or not, nothing is approved until it is signed off completely.

BD is exercising it's right to renegotiate and China has the right to walk away. What is so unbelievable about that?

And they are not looking to reduce costs by two thirds. We want a 15% reduction which is reasonable.

The fact is that there is no competitive bidding allowed, so obviously the financer has the monopoly to charge what they want. Do you believe, China will compete with itself and give BD a bargain?

As far as I see it, we are paying for it so we want a good deal.

China will be profiting interest from the loan. You are also going to profit from the construction work. I don't understand why China is being greedy trying to gouge extra profit on the prices.

@EasyNow bhai, do most phased contracts have an escape clause that says contracts can be terminated halfway or one-third of the way, provided it is a phased contract and provided non-performance is an issue (dependent on third party scrutiny)? What are the penalties per non-performance clause usually (a forfeited security deposit of some sort)?

In this case it is not a phased project of course (could be). But in some cases that can be feasible and then does the financier get only money for that specific phase completed? Is that something within the norm as you have seen? Seems you have some experience with this....

I ask because there was this shady Indian contractor who started completing a specific part of the Mongla- Khulna railway line who could not complete it, and bribed the bank to get the the security money to split town later. The Indians never came back. Bank people who disbursed the funds should have been put in jail.

Our rules are so lax and people so corrupt...

 

[fallstuff]

There is no credibility to what you are saying. Can you tell me what kind of Bangladeshi government would sign a contract for 3 times the normal price. According to the information you said, Bangladesh is perfectly capable of signing a contract with its own company for a third of the price and the funds can be applied for from the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank.

Speaking of construction workers, did you watch the video I posted above? Did you know that day laborers are more expensive than permanent workers? What reason would a Chinese company have to hire higher priced Chinese workers? Chinese companies like all other companies like to hire cheaper workers so they make more money.If I sign a contract worth 1000 and it costs 100 for one of my friends to work for me , a local worker only costs 30, what reason do I need to hire my friend, wouldn't it be better if I could even let my friend do nothing and just get 70?

These words you say have been said countless times in the Western media, and they are themselves flawed lies, but there are many people who believe them.

For example, there's a rumor about plastic rice that I'm sure you've heard before! I'll even bet you believe this rumor.

The most ridiculous thing about these rumors is that even an 8 year old would find them irrational and unbelievable, but some people do believe them. For example, the contract is 3 times the price and no 8 year old would sign it, but there are a lot of people who believe their government would sign it.


Like I said above, China signs contracts for infrastructure construction all over the world, China is not going to give up the whole world market for one country's infrastructure contract, the market itself is very competitive and like you said, Bangladesh has many options and there will be many countries willing to take the project! China would not be so stupid to give up the whole world market for a contract that would make 3 times as much money, nor would the Bangladeshi government be stupid to sign such a contract.

People who believe in such contracts are themselves insulting the wisdom of both the Chinese and Bangladeshi governments.


The most beneficial for Bangladesh (and the most beneficial for China) is mutual benefit. Any unilateral gain is not the most beneficial. Just like a contract that allows one party to make 3 times as much money is something that is absolutely detrimental to both parties.

Dude we are going in circle with no end in the horizon ! Some company asking for more money is nothing new, this is business as usual. Seller will try to get the most for their product and a buyer will try to pay as little as he can is how real life is.

The problem is when the lender requires you to get a Contractor of Lenders choice without any bid. In that case BD will end up paying more.
Why would BD pay more for products and services when it doesn't have to ?

This is not a China vs West issue, but just a business deal that needs to get sorted out.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

The way it is going and being politicized. It will be better to cancel these projects.

China is then free and no longer committed to the loans for these projects without collateral.

I am sure Chinese contractors have plenty of projects elsewhere.

 

[Bilal9]

The way it is going and being politicized. It will be better to cancel these projects.

China is then free and no longer committed to the loans for these projects without collateral.

I am sure Chinese contractors have plenty of projects elsewhere.

I don't think there is any political component in it.

A buyer asking for better terms is not politics, it is just everyday horse-trading.

If the seller cannot, they can walk away. No harm, no foul.

Why would you need collateral? Bangladesh or the railway line on it is not going anywhere.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

I don't think there is any political component in it.

A buyer asking for better terms is not politics, it is just everyday horse-trading.

If the seller cannot, they can walk away. No harm, no foul.

Why would you need collateral? Bangladesh or the railway line on it is not going anywhere.

First of all, this is a done deal with the signatures of both parties legally affixed.

Before the final contracts were drawn and signed, it was just an MoU.

So there were plenty of time to evaluate these projects, its' costing or financing.
The negotiation should be done at this stage whether it is a request for a lower or better price, etc.

A contract is a contract.

If either party felt aggravated by the terms and conditions of these contracts once they are signed, the matter should brought up at the highest level between the two nations diplomatically and in the silence since it is a G2G project.

Now China should be the bitter party as this matter have been and will be politicized by her opponent to badmouth her internationally.

These goodwill projects will be propagated as unfair deal and debt traps.

So IMO China should cancel these projects immediately and Bangladesh is at liberty to reopen fresh tenders by inviting all international contractors or banks to finance them.

But of course, these Chinese companies involved must be compensated for their losses in any alteration or cancellation.

 

[Bilal9]

First of all, this is a done deal with the signatures of both parties legally affixed.

Before the final contracts were drawn and signed, it was just an MoU.

So there were plenty of time to evaluate these projects, its' costing or financing.
The negotiation should be done at this stage whether it is a request for a lower or better price, etc.

A contract is a contract.

If either party felt aggravated by the terms and conditions of these contracts once they are signed, the matter should brought up at the highest level between the two nations diplomatically and in the silence since it is a G2G project.

Now China should be the bitter party as this matter have been and will be politicized by her opponent to badmouth her internationally.

These goodwill projects will be propagated as unfair deal and debt traps.

So IMO China should cancel these projects immediately and Bangladesh is at liberty to reopen fresh tenders by inviting all international contractors or banks to finance them.

But of course, these Chinese companies involved must be compensated for their losses in any alteration or cancellation.

Points well taken.

But even G2G contracts have "escape clauses", enabling either party to walk away.

I admit, some India shill (or tactless) idiot in Bangladesh govt. leaked this to the media. And that Indian shill should be fired or made an example of.

But no signed contract is such that either party cannot renege at some point, usually before the onset of activities and commitment of resources.

We are just discussing here, hope you are not losing your cool.