China: Doing it all yourself has its drawbacks

[Lacus Clyne]

Lol.. its bad when the Chinese do it.. but when the U.S. or Russia reverse engineering.. its no problem.

the U.S. reverse engineering the Mig-17/19

Exploitation of Soviet MiGs at Area 51

yeah,it seem indian care more about su-27 than russian,a good watchdog ,lets give it bone.

on topic :the authorities of russia never blame china copy the appearance of su-27(no one know inside),they even keep providing SCA with al-31 to manufacture inchoate J-11,why your master do it?indian dog can you tell me ?

 

[Martian2]

The article cited by the OP (original poster) is anti-China propaganda.

Contrary to the false claim of problems, the Chinese WS-10 turbofan engine is in mass production and being widely installed on more Chinese fighters: J-10, J-11, and J-15 (see pictures below for proof).

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Shenyang Aircraft Corporation's WS-10A engines are already in mass production

Could the WS-10A engine power the J-10, J-11B, and J-15 aircraft? The answer is "yes" if two conditions are met. Firstly, Chinese production of WS-10A engines must be sufficient to meet the demand (including production of parts for maintenance and replacement engines at the end of the expected lifetime) for all three aircraft.

Secondly, I don't know if WS-10A engines are interchangeable with AL-31F engines. If they are not readily interchangeable without modifying the fuselage then the current fighters with AL-31F engines will most likely stay with AL-31F replacement engines.

J-10B Vigorous Dragon flying with WS-10A engine

J-11B flying with WS-10A engines

J-15 Flying Shark with WS-10A engines

To conclude the discussion on the use of domestic WS-10A engines on the J-10, J-11B, and J-15, there is a new photograph of a J-11BS equipped with WS-10A engines.

"A [J-11BS] tandem twin-seat combat-capable training aircraft for J-11B pilots."

[Note: Thank you to SiegeCrossbow for the J-11BS picture.]

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WS-10A engine for J-10B Vigorous Dragon fighter in mass production

WS-10A engine (with gearbox at the bottom) is designed to power the J-10B Vigorous Dragon fighter. This version of the WS-10A turbofan engine is said to have 13.2 ton maximum thrust. There are several wrapped engines near the floor.

[Note: Thank you to Pinko for the post.]

----------

J-10A and J-10B Vigorous Dragon evolution

The top photo is a J-10A with AL-31F engine. The second and third photos show a J-10B with DSI intake and AL-31F engine. The fourth photo is a J-10B with China's domestic WS-10A engine.

This sequence of pictures illustrates the evolution of the J-10 family from a J-10A (with AL-31F engine) into a J-10B with advanced DSI technology and WS-10A engine.

In the sequence of photographs, it is easy to distinguish between the AL-31F and WS-10A engines. The "flexible petals" on the WS-10A are a lot shorter than on the AL-31F.

Comparison of Chinese WS-10A (top) and Russian AL-31F (bottom) jet engines.

[Note: Thank you to HouShanghai for the first picture and Maya for the engine comparison picture.]

 

[ao333]

indians, please learn to make to rifle and bullet first, then come and talk. this is very embarrassing.. a country that has no has no tech restriction like china still incapable of making simple weapons after many years..ridiculous! lol

supah powah

It's mean to spell it out for them.

 

[conworldus]

Indians love trashing China, but still can't get their LCA to fly more than 6g.

 

[Akasa]

When, in January 2011, China publicised the first test flight of the stealth fighter it is developing, the fact that the J-20 was advanced enough to get off the ground surprised many in the aviation world.

Since then, the Chengdu-made aircraft has had more practice. According to Chinese state media the first prototype completed its 60th test flight late last year and the second of four prototypes started test flights this year.

In addition, military experts in China say the country is developing a second lighter-weight stealth fighter, the J-60.

Without doubt, these projects are powerful symbols of China’s emerging military might.

“It puts China in the company of very few nations that have the wealth and the determination to develop such a programme,” says Tim Huxley, head of the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) in Asia.

The only potential rivals for the J-20 are the Lockheed Martin-produced F-22 Raptor and a stealth fighter under joint development by Russia and India.

But, while the January 2011 surprise showed the risk of underestimating China’s military development programmes, experts now say they should not be overestimated either.

The Pentagon has said it expects the J-20 to be operational no sooner than 2018 – in line with an estimate given by the Chinese deputy air force chief in 2009.

Tai Ming Cheung, an expert on the Chinese military’s technological development at the University of California in San Diego, says: “Whether the Pentagon’s estimate that the J-20 will go into service by 2018 is accurate is anyone’s guess, but my sense is that is wildly optimistic.”

Pointing to the gap of more than a decade between the first flight of the US F-22 fighter and its coming into service, he argues the J-20 will have at least a decade of testing and evaluation before it is ready for production.

“Finding the right engines remains a major obstacle. The [domestically made] WS-10 is still plagued by problems, especially of high quality manufacturing, and there appears to be no quick fix in sight,” he says. “The J-20 is a leading priority in the 12th Five Year defence development plan, so will require plenty of funding and high leadership attention.”

Industry sources agree that engine development remains the soft spot in the Chinese military air power.

An executive at a western aerospace company says: “In missile and satellite technology, China has managed greatly to narrow the gap with the US. But aircraft engines are an area where, despite decades of reverse engineering of licensed technology, they are still far behind.”

Avic, the state-owned aerospace conglomerate, plans to invest Rmb10bn ($1.6bn) over the next five years in the development of the high-end turbofan engines needed in an aircraft of the J-20 type. Meanwhile, the People’s Liberation Army Air Force remains dependent on Russian and Ukrainian supplies.

The J-10 and J-11, China’s fourth-generation fighters, are powered by Russian Salyut AL-31 FN engines.

In July 2011, Beijing ordered another 123 of those engines, bringing total orders of this engine model since 2001 to more than 1,000.

Beijing this year requested 48 Sukhoi Su-35 fighters from Russia, a deal still being delayed because of Moscow’s concerns that China could copy its technology.

But the request could reflect China’s desire to insure itself against the risk of relying only on domestic development.

But, despite the challenges, China’s growing air power has already thrown its large shadow ahead.

James Hardy, Asia-Pacific editor at IHS Jane’s Defence Weekly, says: “China’s military modernisation over the past decade and its more assertive posture, for example in the South China Sea since 2008, has driven south-east Asian countries such as the Philippines to step up fighter procurement.


“US allies in the region, such as, Japan, South Korea, Singapore and Australia are buying – or thinking of buying – F-35s to maintain interoperability with US forces and stay at the cutting edge of combat aircraft technology.”



China: Doing it all yourself has its drawbacks - FT.com

I stopped reading when the article suggested that the WS-10A still had quality issues. An engine with quality issues simply does not enter service with 140+ J-11B fighters, and even J-10B and J-15 prototypes, like it did. The fact that they used the engine to test prototype aircraft suggests that they are extremely confident in its design and so far the problems are nonexistent.

And they forgot to mention that the bulk of the J-11 fleet, the J-11B, uses WS-10A engines.

The Su-35 deal was already denied by the Chinese ministry of defense and Sukhoi itself.

In short, please stop posting incorrect information.

British expert believes that China Taihang aeroengine used American technology | WAREYE


Recently, a British military experts believe that China in the development of WS-10 "Taihang" turbofan engines for military use in the process of obtaining business from the United States CFM56 turbofan engine technology.

Russian media said the Chinese WS-10 "Taihang" engine development program comparable to the United States that year’s "Apollo" moon program, are extremely important strategic significance. Experts believe that a weakness of domestic manufacturing of advanced jet engines can not become a superpower country. WS-10 engine thrust does not open when the afterburner is unclear, but sources said it up to 132 kN afterburning. This indicator and the United States of its F-15 and F-16 are equipped with the F110 engine quite.



WS-10 Taihang Historical Development of the engine

Russian media said the United States to China in 1982 provided for the assessment of CFM56II two engines. Although only a commercial engine, but CFM56II the core components – high-pressure compressor, combustor and high pressure turbine is the same with the F110. U.S. Department of Defense was worried that China will steal by CFM56II advanced engine manufacturing technology, and therefore opposed to the Chinese side. But the then Reagan administration insisted the deal, the Chinese people dismantling the engine and its components in detail. It is reported that it has not returned to the United States the last two engines, because they were "destroyed in a fire."

Russian media said, but just can not get to observe the structure of materials and production methods related to the engine enough information. Then the Chinese also carried out a lot of work, a generic version engine components has been completed.



If you trying to offer me your small cabbage brain I must decline your offer

China is one of the largest purchasers of Russian engines. The current technological level of this country does not allow manufacturing its own engines suitable for long-term operation. The country manufactures WS-10 engines and some other models for J-10 and J-11 aircraft, however, their reliability, thrust and time between overhaul are inferior to the indicators of Russian AL-31 engines.



Chinese Ministry of Defense acquired Russian engines to the amount of $700 million - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM

Bro, there is another article that believes the Mumbai attacks were because of an inside job, so please stop posting theories and use hard facts.

This is from Russian media and you call us stupid? learn to read english first

Chinese clone of SU-27

You have no right to define the term stupid if you call that a copy even when all of its internal technologies were completely different from the Russian version.

Chinese reverse engineer everything...so Russian are skeptical and don't trust Chinese.....They will also keep in mind that if J-20 becomes ready fr export, it will be competition for PAK-FA.(If they are to be exported).

These technologies were produced using Chinese scientists, Chinese corporations, Chinese designed components, no proof of foreign objects were linked, and these are somehow reverse engineered? If the Arjun's armor was as thick as your denial and ignorance, then it might actually be a decent MBT.

 

[Hyperion]

Some strange comparisons going on here! It's not a matter of "we don't do it due to ethics" "we don't do it due to contractual obligations"

Copying engines and metallurgy is not like learning to cook a perfect biryani! If it were that simple to copy something:

1. India would've built cryogenic engines back in the 90's
2. Pakistan would have been producing miraging steel.
3. Iran would be producing DU ammo.

Copying something of the magnitude of an aircraft engine requires a gazillion supporting parts to be copied, which in turn need the technical base to copy the copying machines and .........

SOME SIMPLE FACTS (WEAPONS SYSTEMS): If a country is able to copy and is capable to field a reliable model, they'll do it ONE WAY OR THE OTHER! Anything other than this is either utter BS, or plain old incompetence!

 

[Lacus Clyne]

The article cited by the OP (original poster) is anti-China propaganda.

Contrary to the false claim of problems, the Chinese WS-10 turbofan engine is in mass production and being widely installed on more Chinese fighters: J-10, J-11, and J-15 (see pictures below for proof).

----------

Shenyang Aircraft Corporation's WS-10A engines are already in mass production

Could the WS-10A engine power the J-10, J-11B, and J-15 aircraft? The answer is "yes" if two conditions are met. Firstly, Chinese production of WS-10A engines must be sufficient to meet the demand (including production of parts for maintenance and replacement engines at the end of the expected lifetime) for all three aircraft.

Secondly, I don't know if WS-10A engines are interchangeable with AL-31F engines. If they are not readily interchangeable without modifying the fuselage then the current fighters with AL-31F engines will most likely stay with AL-31F replacement engines.

J-10B Vigorous Dragon flying with WS-10A engine

J-11B flying with WS-10A engines

J-15 Flying Shark with WS-10A engines

To conclude the discussion on the use of domestic WS-10A engines on the J-10, J-11B, and J-15, there is a new photograph of a J-11BS equipped with WS-10A engines.

"A [J-11BS] tandem twin-seat combat-capable training aircraft for J-11B pilots."

[Note: Thank you to SiegeCrossbow for the J-11BS picture.]

----------

WS-10A engine for J-10B Vigorous Dragon fighter in mass production

WS-10A engine (with gearbox at the bottom) is designed to power the J-10B Vigorous Dragon fighter. This version of the WS-10A turbofan engine is said to have 13.2 ton maximum thrust. There are several wrapped engines near the floor.

[Note: Thank you to Pinko for the post.]

----------

J-10A and J-10B Vigorous Dragon evolution

The top photo is a J-10A with AL-31F engine. The second and third photos show a J-10B with DSI intake and AL-31F engine. The fourth photo is a J-10B with China's domestic WS-10A engine.

This sequence of pictures illustrates the evolution of the J-10 family from a J-10A (with AL-31F engine) into a J-10B with advanced DSI technology and WS-10A engine.

In the sequence of photographs, it is easy to distinguish between the AL-31F and WS-10A engines. The "flexible petals" on the WS-10A are a lot shorter than on the AL-31F.

Comparison of Chinese WS-10A (top) and Russian AL-31F (bottom) jet engines.

[Note: Thank you to HouShanghai for the first picture and Maya for the engine comparison picture.]

the china domestic forum proved that the latest J-10\J-11 all use WS-10/WS-10A,the WS-10 mass runs.
poor、dirty、lazy and black indian rubbish still use international-made weapons.elementary pithecanthropus.

 

[KRAIT]

I stopped reading when the article suggested that the WS-10A still had quality issues. An engine with quality issues simply does not enter service with 140+ J-11B fighters, and even J-10B and J-15 prototypes, like it did. The fact that they used the engine to test prototype aircraft suggests that they are extremely confident in its design and so far the problems are nonexistent.

And they forgot to mention that the bulk of the J-11 fleet, the J-11B, uses WS-10A engines.

The Su-35 deal was already denied by the Chinese ministry of defense and Sukhoi itself.

In short, please stop posting incorrect information.



Bro, there is another article that believes the Mumbai attacks were because of an inside job, so please stop posting theories and use hard facts.



You have no right to define the term stupid if you call that a copy even when all of its internal technologies were completely different from the Russian version.



These technologies were produced using Chinese scientists, Chinese corporations, Chinese designed components, no proof of foreign objects were linked, and these are somehow reverse engineered? If the Arjun's armor was as thick as your denial and ignorance, then it might actually be a decent MBT.

You just posted against many of chinese posters's belief. Do some research, hate to admit that you should ask Martian2 or Chinese Dragon, they have quite a lot of information which you will find interesting and easy for you to understand and believe. Martian2 omitted many things which he used to state.


There may be changes but you can't ignore the fact that it is reverse engineered and I don't find it bad, I wish India could do it, rather than reinventing the wheel so that it can bring its domestic industry on track and develop its own engine in parallel.

 

[Arzamas 16]

Just one look at the J-20 shows what China can do.

All China showed with J-20 is that it can build a prototype that looks a 5th gen fighter and that it can take off and fly, that's it.

J-20 mighty drag queen has so far flew 60 times.

PAK FA on the other hand flew 130 times so far, more than double the J-20 .

In contrast the PAK-FA looks very much 4th generation.

1. Russia unlike US and China doesn't spend time and money making the prototype look all pretty, all that matters is that the Final product is good period.

2. If your judging production PAK FA based on the current prototypes then your in for a very big surprise.

I give an example for the slow people.

Su-27 prototype

Production Su-27

China is now ahead of the Russians in avionics - Even Russians agree with this.

When have we said that, back up your bold clams with facts and sources or STFU

It is developing cutting edge AAMs like the PL-21D and Pl-10 which will be equal to anything that the US produces, let alone Russia

You clam that China's air to air Missiles are better, then show me a Chinese equivalent to this missile on testing, production, or even planning stages.

It was described as having a range of 400 km

Novator K-100 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By 2020, China will lead Russia in every area.

That will only happen if we sit and do nothing for the next 8 years, but in reality.

The Russian Defense Ministry will spend on the development of secret weapons for about four trillion rubles, calculated daily "Vedomosti". These funds are provided for the state program arms of Russia for 2011-2020, funding is set at 23 trillion rubles. 20.7 trillion rubles of this amount will be used only to purchase arms for the Russian Defense Ministry.

On the eve of Russian President Vladimir Putin said that the 2.6 trillion rubles will be spent in 2020 on the modernization of the Ground and Airborne Forces. In February, the first deputy defense minister of Russia, Alexander Sukhorukov said that the troops on the development of air and space defense will be spent 20 percent of the LG-2020, or about four trillion rubles.

In April 2011, Putin announced that up to 2020 on the development of the Navy planned to spend five trillion rubles. Later, Vladimir Vysotsky, the then commander of the Russian Navy, said that the Navy will receive up to 2020 4.7 trillion rubles. In June 2012, Putin said that the Air Force will receive four trillion rubles. The cost of the Strategic Missile Forces, the newspaper said, were secret, but we know that they are about a trillion rubles.

It turns out that the development, procurement and modernization of armaments and military equipment of all kinds and types of the Russian Armed Forces until 2020 will be spent about 16.6 trillion rubles. Another three trillion rubles for the state program of armaments to be spent on the development of military-industrial complex. Thus, the total size of the officially announced government program spending is about 19.6 trillion rubles. Assignment of the remaining nearly four trillion rubles is still unknown.

According to an officer of the Russian Defense Ministry, which refers to "Vedomosti", the money will be spent outside the genera and species of the armed forces on military infrastructure, inter-species communication and management tools, and logistics. Itself is a state program of arms a secret document, most of the provisions of which have never disclosed.

We are spending $123.4 billion USD on Classified Programs alone, and that's nothing to say about the very public programs like PAK FA, S-500, PAK DA.

Like I said keep dreaming.

Lenta.ru:

 

[UKBengali]

Russia being able to match China into the future?




Even the US would be overtaken by the Chinese juggernaut in due course!

 

[funtoosh]

Because Russia knows that India does not have the capability to even understand how to copy it let alone produce working copy...

or it could be that indians stick to their word. remember that we have sent rockets to the moon by ourselves.
unlike you guys which paints chini missiles in urdu.

Russia being able to match China into the future?




Even the US would be overtaken by the Chinese juggernaut in due course!

china still cant match russia.. forget russia in 50% of areas it cant match even india which is 1/4th its economy

 

[BigDaddyWatch]

china still cant match russia.. forget russia in 50% of areas it cant match even india which is 1/4th its economy

Which 50% ?

 

[danger007]

or it could be that indians stick to their word. remember that we have sent rockets to the moon by ourselves.
unlike you guys which paints chini missiles in urdu.


china still cant match russia.. forget russia in 50% of areas it cant match even india which is 1/4th its economy

they are ahead of us,in many areas.... don't be jumpy.......

 

[funtoosh]

they are ahead of us,in many areas.... don't be jumpy.......

which means we are also ahead in some

 

[Developereo]

Russia being able to match China into the future?

The Chinese are smart, but what is the need to denigrate the Russians? Russians are some of the best brainiacs on the planet; they were able to go toe-to-toe with the American juggernaut and kept them awake at night for decades.