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Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

If you're referring to a twin-seater, I say why not?

I would say, why?

Modern targeting technology tremendously reduces workload on pilots in all mission types. That's why the Su-35 still carries a wide suite of A2G weapons, despite only having 1 seat. The J-20 being China's premiere fighter aircraft, I don't see why China would be saving money and going with 2 seats and less expensive electronics (which is why the Su-30SM is becoming relatively numerous in Russian service).

As to why not, it would seem to be a massive hassle to redesign the airframe just to accommodate a second seat, considering the J-20 is a stealth aircraft and that portion of the aircraft has to undergo more development to be made stealthy. Without radar absorbing coating, it may still be less stealthy than the single seater. China has some stealthy UCAVs in development...
 
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I would say, why?

That's why the argument can be made either way.

Modern targeting technology tremendously reduces workload on pilots in all mission types. That's why the Su-35 still carries a wide suite of A2G weapons, despite only having 1 seat. The J-20 being China's premiere fighter aircraft, I don't see why China would be saving money and going with 2 seats and less expensive electronics (which is why the Su-30SM is becoming relatively numerous in Russian service).

Who says it would have less expensive electronics? Quite the opposite. A prime example would be comparing the role of the Rafale in its single and two-seat version where you have the latest data fusion cockpit and it is a true, omni-role aircraft that's limitless in operational tasks. ATM, the J-20's function in strict stealth mode (if I'm not mistaken) is strictly A2A. Give it a mission that is relegated mostly to ground operation and a 2nd pilot is invaluable, especially when its role is now an offensive platform and not a defensive one. With all the new tech such as EW, AI, controlling drones from the aircraft and software technology as well as HMDS, no matter how easy it's designed to be for a single pilot, there will always be situations where there is just way too much sensory overload. There is no way around that when a pilot has to have situational awareness, fly the aircraft and combat an enemy, no matter how easier all these systems are made for the pilot, they will always be presented with situations where there is work overload, especially when the battle is taken deep into enemy territory. A single pilot limits the role of the aircraft no matter how advanced it is.

This is clearly evident in the F-22 and the F-35.

Also, larger aircraft (such as the J-20) that are relegated to very large combat radius and loiter time also pay a lesser penalty in fuel capacity for carrying a second seat than smaller aircraft. Given that premise, I would say that being a larger aircraft than the other current 5th gens in testing and production, it will also pay less of a price in RCS for a larger cockpit.

As to why not, it would seem to be a massive hassle to redesign the airframe just to accommodate a second seat, considering the J-20 is a stealth aircraft and that portion of the aircraft has to undergo more development to be made stealthy. Without radar absorbing coating, it may still be less stealthy than the single seater. China has some stealthy UCAVs in development...

A 2nd seat will definitely reduce RCS, can't argue that, but I think it would be minimal and the reward would be greater in return for mission-specific tasks. Look at the eventual FGFA for example. It's going to be a design that will sacrifice some stealth to have that capability of a 2nd operator because the particular airforce looking to acquire a 2-seat PAK-FA has certain needs and mission tasks that require a 2nd pilot and are willing to give up a bit of stealth for that. There's also the notion that when you lose a little stealth coming from your avionics and cockpit, you fly higher altitudes to help reduce that.

Also, as far as a massive hassle and cost, that might not necessarily be the case here since there are only 8 flying prototypes of the J-20 ATM. Granted they seem to be operational but it's still in developmental phase and we saw a major, redesign in structure and shape to the F-22 post testing and prior to entering production. If it's worth it to China since it's a huge country, why not? If it'll operate like the F-22 and F-35 which rely on huge outside support, then it probably won't need it.
 
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Who says it would have less expensive electronics?

Well if you look at the Su-35 and Su-30SM, their only differences apart from the twin seat setup are engines, and radar. Otherwise, they carry the same types of weapons, including air-to-ground munitions. While the exact price is not known, the Su-35 was exported to China for about $83-85 million per aircraft, including various support infrastructure/equipment. The Su-30SM is said said to be around $50 million. Quite a lot of money there that won't just be because of the engines and radar. It is also common knowledge that the Su-35 has a more advanced cockpit with better electronics and systems designed to reduce workload on the pilot. It's quite hard to find examples of this as contemporary aircraft with much older technology had to use twin seats since there was little technology available to reduce workload on the pilot.

they will always be presented with situations where there is work overload, especially when the battle is taken deep into enemy territory.

What situations?

Also, larger aircraft (such as the J-20) that are relegated to very large combat radius and loiter time

Large combat radius and long loiter time are desirable characteristics. I think you mean there would be missions where this would be the case. In which case, a second seat isn't really going to help. It's not like the pilot can sleep mid flight and let the back seater take over. Even in very large combat radius aircraft like the F-14, the RIO didn't have flight controls.

If it'll operate like the F-22 and F-35 which rely on huge outside support, then it probably won't need it.

The F-35 is designed to use "sensor fusion" to great effect to provide a ton of information about targets. It was designed from the ground up to be able to conduct air-to-ground missions effectively, including SEAD/DEAD, as well as interdiction, strike, and even CAS. Its technology can support this, even if many (including myself) consider these extra roles to implant too many compromises on the engine for it to conduct other roles effectively. Nevertheless, the cockpit is designed to reduce pilot workload to do this.

In a cockpit the main systems a pilot conducting air-to-ground missions has to worry about are 1. Flight 2. RWR 3. Jamming 4. Targeting.

1. Is no problem. Modern aircraft can fly level very easily and require little input from the pilot. They also have autopilot functions that can hold attitude during the ingress stage.

2. If you're in a stealth aircraft and maintaining proper signals discipline, you won't have to worry about this much, other than seeing enemy radars on search mode (not locked on).

3. Similar to 2.

4. The main portion of the pilots time and concentration will be in working the targeting systems. These are a bit clunky in older aircraft (try shooting a Kh-29 at an M1 Abrams in an Su-25 in DCS World... It needs a lot of practice) but modern electronics and interfaces can make everything much easier.
 
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:-)

J-20A 78271 front.jpg
 
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Carrier borne J-20 has had its first flight? :D:D

:o: ... I think You need to better explain that?!!

Do you really want to say that regardless all rumors and discussions on if or if not, what type and when a new carrier borne fighter will be unveiled, CAC surprised us with the maiden flight of a carrier-capable J-20?? :o:
 
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:o: ... I think You need to better explain that?!!

Do you really want to say that regardless all rumors and discussions on if or if not, what type and when a new carrier borne fighter will be unveiled, CAC surprised us with the maiden flight of a carrier-capable J-20?? :o:

It seems so. BTW there is a rumor that, with a recent accident on J-15 flight control system, PLAN successfully escalated some very strong complaint to the the big boss. It might have affected the outcome of the competition.
 
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It seems so. BTW there is a rumor that, with a recent accident on J-15 flight control system, PLAN successfully escalated some very strong complaint to the the big boss. It might have affected the outcome of the competition.

And it already flew??? :woot: Would be awesome, unbelievable ...

Can you please post some of these links which discuss or claim this?

Deino
 
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90% there. A matured beast indeed. Congrats to the Chinese people.
 
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It seems so. BTW there is a rumor that, with a recent accident on J-15 flight control system, PLAN successfully escalated some very strong complaint to the the big boss. It might have affected the outcome of the competition.
FC31 is definitely better on carrier with conventional layout.
 
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90% there. A matured beast indeed. Congrats to the Chinese people.


I hope you don't mind to wait for some hard facts like images before I open a bottle of champagne .... but if it's true I will surely open one, promised. :-)

So far I wasn't able to find any link or source for that... can anyone help?? @cirr
 
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And it already flew??? :woot: Would be awesome, unbelievable ...

Can you please post some of these links which discuss or claim this?

Deino

It is a reliable rumor. However, there are two different way to unscramble it. So we can not sure it is about J-20 or FC-31.
 
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It is a reliable rumor. However, there are two different way to unscramble it. So we can not sure it is about J-20 or FC-31.

Posted by whom??
So pardon, now it is even more confusing. I thought @cirr posted this rumour related to the J-20 or was his question to hint that he wasn't sure at all and that this alleged maiden flight could also be related to a FC-31VX- variant?

I'm only surprised that some here seem to be quite sure about this rumour while otherwise neither Xinfengcao, OedoSoldier or any other of these guys have posted anything.

Do you have a link on this ?

Best,
Deino
 
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Posted by whom??
So pardon, now it is even more confusing. I thought @cirr posted this rumour related to the J-20 or was his question to hint that he wasn't sure at all and that this alleged maiden flight could also be related to a FC-31VX- variant?

I'm only surprised that some here seem to be quite sure about this rumour while otherwise neither Xinfengcao, OedoSoldier or any other of these guys have posted anything.

Do you have a link on this ?

Best,
Deino

huahua posts it in CJDBY. The original information is still a story, like he always do. It is about the next generation shipboard aircraft. The main problem is how to unscramble it. You better ignore this.
 
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