Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[帅的一匹]

The development of a turbo fan engine has faced a bottleneck, we are looking Foward to a new concept of engine in the future.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

the incoming domestic engine for the J-20 -> WS-15

another brand new high TWR engine under the development -> WS-XX with the TWR about 15

 

[Beast]

https://view.inews.qq.com/a/20170314A0ASNS00

https://view.inews.qq.com/a/20170314A09D6300

The article says the current engine installed on J20 is Russian Al-31F-m1 with Max 13.2KN wet thrust. Even compatible with WS10b with 14.2 KN, J20 still hardly can make supercruise. F119 has 156KN thrust, we still have to work harder to achieve it. We are waiting for WS15, a engine which is better than F119.

We have to face the reality and avoid unnecessary claim.

These are BS source. Just some random posting with no credbilities. There is no such magical engine called AL-31F M1-3. If Russian is good in selling these updated AL-31F engine. Why is there so much saga regards to Chinese trying to access 117S engine. The thrust for this so called magical M1-3 series compare to 117S is not too much. It will not make much different for J-20. J-20 during demonstrations produced tremendous amount of dry thrust for picking and acceleration. M1-3 are not going to satisfy those criteria

 

[Deino]

@Deino WS15 is coming soon. An insider of NPC representative had confirmed it to the Media that WS15 will fly with J20 soon. The cheif designer of J20 Mr. Yang Wei said on the NPC session that his fighter is the proud of our nation.
....

Yes for sure, but my point - and here I'm in very harsh contrast to Asok's opinion - until NOW the WS-15 is not ready and was NOT tested on any of the J-20s so far.
Again, that it will be and also with these parameters is IMO without doubt, however his claims are for NOW.

I'm waiting for the rise of the Fourth Reich

Hopefully never. Like I already said, Germany has done terrible things and should never rise - at least in military terms - ...

PS: @Asok !

Would You don't mind to NOT re-edit Your posts after they were quoted ?? I again completely differs sometimes from Your original post and that gives a wrong perception again; TAHNKS.

 

[帅的一匹]

These are BS source. Just some random posting with no credbilities. There is no such magical engine called AL-31F M1-3. If Russian is good in selling these updated AL-31F engine. Why is there so much saga regards to Chinese trying to access 117S engine. The thrust for this so called magical M1-3 series compare to 117S is not too much. It will not make much different for J-20. J-20 during demonstrations produced tremendous amount of dry thrust for picking and acceleration. M1-3 are not going to satisfy those criteria

Simply because 117S has higher thrust and TVC. WS15 is not operational yet, it just finished the ground test. WS10b is just fine. Let us agree to disagree.

I don't mind wait another 5 years until WS15 get operational.

 

[Beast]

Simply because 117S has higher thrust and TVC. WS15 is not operational yet, it just finished the ground test. WS10b is just fine. Let us agree to disagree.

I don't mind wait another 5 years until WS15 get operational.

117s do not have much thrust compare to the so called M3 version(if there is in the first place). The Russian would never selling such engine individually to Chinese for their J-20 project without tie to other deal. Then you have to take into consideration of the dry thrust that can push J-20 acceleration and turn without turning on the afterburner. Doesn't not looks like AL-31F M3 can do it.

Then you have to ask yourself this simple question. If shenyang liming can push a non important PLA project like WS-13X to put into FC-31 V2 while can't even fulfil a basic WS-10B for J-10B and J-20. Don't you find it ridiculous? WS-13X is not a simple RE engine. The very fact it is smokeless compare to RD-93 more or less tells you something.

 

[帅的一匹]

117s do not have much thrust compare to the so called M3 version(if there is in the first place). The Russian would never selling such engine individually to Chinese for their J-20 project without tie to other deal. Then you have to take into consideration of the dry thrust that can push J-20 acceleration and turn without turning on the afterburner. Doesn't not looks like AL-31F M3 can do it.

Then you have to ask yourself this simple question. If shenyang liming can push a non important PLA project like WS-13X to put into FC-31 V2 while can't even fulfil a basic WS-10B for J-10B and J-20. Don't you find it ridiculous? WS-13X is not a simple RE engine. The very fact it is smokeless compare to RD-93 more or less tells you something.

WS10b will power J20 until WS15 comes into play. Do you agree with me?

 

[Ultima Thule]

Thank You so much for exactly proving my point ... and even more ironic, that @Asok once again failed to understand it.

Exactly what I said, it is impossible to mate from engine Type A the core with the bypass/fan-section from Type B + the nozzle from Type C like what some here describing:

Type A = WS-15 core
Type B = WS-10 bypass section
Type C = AL-31FN nozzle !

This would be as if You take a F414's core, mate it with the M.88's fan and use an EJ-200's nozzle since The AL-31 is a Russian engine, the WS-10 is build by Shenyang and the WS-15 at least planned from Xian.
Or in the same way take a French M.53 core, mate it with a GE F110's fan and add a P&W F100's nozzle ! Plain ridiculous, simply impossible since each part has to be carefully designed for a complete working system aka engine ... to plug and play does not fit !

In You example - and thanks again for it - You have a development path even mentioned in the first line from the same manufactor, aka Pratt & Whitney: So it is more than rationale that the F-119 evolved into the F135 and that unique nozzle You mentioned on the X-35 was only a one-off design prior to the F135's final nozzle design for the demonstrator X-35.

As such, to assume the "unique" silverish nozzle on the J-20 prototypes - which strangely disappeared then again on the LRIP-birds - should be already a WS-15 is so much off ...

Deino

Why you are denying this fact that Specialized interim version of WS-10 with a core of WS-15, oh i forget that your German ego deny that
and as for you question about core, fan, nozzle mating is that F-118 (engine of B-2) using the core of GE-F-110 with a new fan and nozzle design, also CMF-56 series of civil jet engine is also based upon F-110, and why you think that China can't innovate new things beucase of your German ego deny this

 

[Deino]

Why you are denying this fact that Specialized interim version of WS-10 with a core of WS-15, oh i forget that your German ego deny that
and as for you question about core, fan, nozzle mating is that F-118 (engine of B-2) using the core of GE-F-110 with a new fan and nozzle design, also CMF-56 series of civil jet engine is also based upon F-110, and why you think that China can't innovate new things beucase of your German ego deny this

Can You please be rationale and instead of mocking my ego which is a plain stupid insult simply try to think.

Again all engines You mention are from the same manufactor and design team namely General Electric. As such it is more than normal to use certain trusted components and develop them further.
This might be the case if all three engines You try to mix were from the same company but they are not: As such Shenyang does not know all details which are required to plug&play-add an AL-31-component to a WS-10 core and even more still the WS-15 is not ready.

Sometimes I have the feeling You already noticed Yourself that You have no arguments and instead You are getting rude and offensive ... Again leave out my as a person and esp. my so called German ego, which simply is not relevant. I in return do not bash Your opinion as a typical Pakistani/US stupidity since this would be unfair un unrelated to this discussion.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Can You please be rationale and instead of mocking my ego which is a plain stupid insult simply try to think.

Again all engines You mention are from the same manufactor and design team namely General Electric. As such it is more than normal to use certain trusted components and develop them further.
This might be the case if all three engines You try to mix were from the same company but they are not: As such Shenyang does not know all details which are required to plug&play-add an AL-31-component to a WS-10 core and even more still the WS-15 is not ready.

Sometimes I have the feeling You already noticed Yourself that You have no arguments and instead You are getting rude and offensive ... Again leave out my as a person and esp. my so called German ego, which simply is not relevant. I in return do not bash Your opinion as a typical Pakistani/US stupidity since this would be unfair un unrelated to this discussion.

Ok sir why you think that J-20 using AL-31M3

 

[Deino]

Ok sir why you think that J-20 using AL-31M3

Thanks ... and in fact I don't think it is the M3 but an uprated development based on the M2:

This is a report where I explained my theory ... https://www.facebook.com/permalink....908984705&id=611223845748378&substory_index=0

To add: I admit it is only a theory but IMO a well founded one given the similarities to the J-10, the historical connections to Salut and the IMO not only external similarities of the engine.
However - and that too I already said more than often - I would be glad if the J-20 would fly on indigenous WS-1X-engines. I love, admire and adore this type and as such I'm really offended by such claims I would only wish them a failure or back setbacks.

Deino

 

[Ultima Thule]

Thanks ... and in fact I don't think it is the M3 but an uprated development based on the M2:

This is a report where I explained my theory ... https://www.facebook.com/permalink....908984705&id=611223845748378&substory_index=0

Deino

I open minded person if you hurts please pardon me just in my thought China have both western (mid 80's) engine technology and (old and modern) Russian engine technology, if you suggest that that J-20 using specialized and uprated version of M-2, why you don't think that its quite possible that J-20 could be using specialized and uprated version of WS-10 with a core of WS-15 specially built for J-20 and not to forget WS-10 is matured and deployed in numbers at-least in excess 450 as i read on Chinese engine development thread, i read somewhere on the internet that WS-10 is based on CMF-56 with add-on of afterburner, later in mid 90's they introduced AL-31F equipped Su-27 so i think they upgraded their WS-10 with Russian technology and nozzles are quite similar to AL-31FM3 that's their you're confusing i think, just my thought nothing offensive to you sir Just my 2 Cents

 

[Deino]

I open minded person if you hurts please pardon me just in my thought China have both western (mid 80's) engine technology and (old and modern) Russian engine technology, if you suggest that that J-20 using specialized and uprated version of M-2, why you don't think that its quite possible that J-20 could be using specialized and uprated version of WS-10 with a core of WS-15 specially built for J-20 and not to forget WS-10 is matured and deployed in numbers at-least in excess 450 as i read on Chinese engine development thread, i read somewhere on the internet that WS-10 is based on CMF-56 with add-on of afterburner, later in mid 90's they introduced AL-31F equipped Su-27 so i think they upgraded their WS-10 with Russian technology and nozzles are quite similar to AL-31FM3 that's their you're confusing i think, just my thought nothing offensive to you sir Just my 2 Cents

Thanks for Your kind reply and even if I'm indeed not an aero-engines engineer - but how many of us here are one ?? - from all I know, read and got explained it is not that easy. Aero-engine's design is the masterpiece of aeronautical engineering and You truly cannot simply plug and play one item from one engine to another one since each part is a special-designed item, all well-balanced to each other.

As such even if the WS-15's core is done what I highly question it is build for a certain requirement of thrust, fuel consumption all that based on materials, temperature, stress, load and so on. And each and every other part is designed to meet a certain criteria of that engine. As such even if the WS-10 is said to be based on the AFM-56's technology I'm almost sure it's only its technology. I don't think they simple took it, redesigned and copied it and mated it with a smaller fan .. making voila the WS-10.

As such even if they now materials, specifications and so on of the AL-31 - what they surely do - You cannot simply take part A from engine A and mate it on part B from engine B. ... the fact that they use the knowledge of certain engines to develop a new one is surely possible, but not via a plug and play enginering.

 

[Asoka]

"The thrust for this so called magical M1-3 series compare to 117S is not too much. It will not make much different for J-20. J-20 during demonstrations produced tremendous amount of dry thrust for picking and acceleration. M1-3 are not going to satisfy those criteria"

"Then you have to take into consideration of the dry thrust that can push J-20 acceleration and turn without turning on the afterburner. Doesn't not looks like AL-31F M3 can do it."

Yes, very good point. Thank you Beast.

Despite the fact, that I pointed out at least 10 times now, that J-20 can do substain vertical climbing, without turning on the afterburner. And it was demonstrated, in front of thousands of spectaculars, who are mostly aviation professionals, from around the world. And viewed on youtube by millions of viewers, yet the significance of this fact, has not sunk in, with many PDF members, they keep deny it, ignore it, and put their heads in the sand.

"WS10b will power J20 until WS15 comes into play. Do you agree with me?"
"I don't mind wait another 5 years until WS15 get operational."


Actually, J-20 don't need a powerful engine, if Supersonic Cruise and Supersonic Maneuverability, are not that Super important, therefore not needed at all.

Forget about the 4S requirements, J-20 can just have Stealth and Superior Sensor fusion like F-35, and fly just like that flying pig (can't climb, can't turn, can't run, and can't fight). And call it a Fifth generation Fighter like F-22 and T-50.

No one will notice the difference, except perhaps, the enemy pilots. Unfortunately, this might produce some kind of tragic results.

I open minded person if you hurts please pardon me just in my thought China have both western (mid 80's) engine technology and (old and modern) Russian engine technology, if you suggest that that J-20 using specialized and uprated version of M-2, why you don't think that its quite possible that J-20 could be using specialized and uprated version of WS-10 with a core of WS-15 specially built for J-20 and not to forget WS-10 is matured and deployed in numbers at-least in excess 450 as i read on Chinese engine development thread, i read somewhere on the internet that WS-10 is based on CMF-56 with add-on of afterburner, later in mid 90's they introduced AL-31F equipped Su-27 so i think they upgraded their WS-10 with Russian technology and nozzles are quite similar to AL-31FM3 that's their you're confusing i think, just my thought nothing offensive to you sir Just my 2 Cents

Thankyou, my Pakistani friend!

It's simply absurd, to think Russia, needs China's help, to develop a more powerful version of AL-31FN, while it already has 117S. It's simply evidence-free, irresponsible, speculation.

 

[j20blackdragon]

The problem with the Russian engine theory is the complete lack of news coming from the Russian side.

We had credible reports regarding the original AL-31FN deal TWO YEARS prior to the J-10 entering service. Both the engine variant and number of engines purchased were known by 2001.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/archive/index.php/t-4563.html

We had announcements from both Salut (the manufacturer) and Rosoboronexport concerning the AL-31FN Series 3 deal in 2011.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/676406.shtml

"The contract will involve 140 to 150 engines, but it has not been confirmed by authorities in Beijing," Alexander A. Drozhzhin, the head of press for SALUT, told the Global Times at the Aviation Expo in Beijing on Wednesday.

The Russian state arms exporter, Rosoboronexport (ROE), announced in July a sale of 123 SALUT-made AL-31FN turbofan engines to China for $500 million, the Washington Times reported late August.


There have been NO REPORTS concerning the Al-31FM2 since the bench tests in 2012.

http://aviationweek.com/awin/some-tests-complete-sukhoi-engine-upgrade

Even the recent Su-35 deal was widely reported by the media. So why the sudden silence regarding the J-20 engine? The J-20 made its maiden flight in 2011 and has now entered service in 2017. Where was the engine announcement from Russia throughout this span of six years? Even a license produced engine should be announced. India produces plenty of things under license from Russia. It is all announced.