Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Asoka]

"A domestically developed engine, will soon power, the nation's latest stealth fighter jet "

The J-20 has entering LRIP, and soon will go into full production. A domestically developed engine, will soon power, the mass produced J-20.

This does not mean WS-15, has never been tested on J-20, and that it will soon be tested on J-20.

It simply mean, China has finally ironed out, the production issues of WS-15, and the engine will soon be mass produced and equip production version of J-20.

Do you need a reading comprehension lesson?

 

[j20blackdragon]

Do You really think it is that easy to plug & play the core of one engine with the fan of another and not to forget the nozzle of an AL-31 ???

Pardon, but when was the core of engine Type A was mated with the fan of Type B added by the nozzle of Type C. I'm indeed eager to learn but I don't know and from what I know it is simply impossible.

The F135 is a derivative of the F119 engine and uses a common core.
http://www.pw.utc.com/Press/Story/20091123-0200/All/Military Engines

The X-35 engine used a unique nozzle that never showed up again in later versions of the F-35.

 

[Asoka]

The F135 is a derivative of the F119 engine and uses a common core.
http://www.pw.utc.com/Press/Story/20091123-0200/All/Military Engines
View attachment 383954

The X-35 engine used a unique nozzle that never showed up again in later versions of the F-35.
View attachment 383955

Great digging! This is gem!

 

[Deino]

The F135 is a derivative of the F119 engine and uses a common core.
...
The X-35 engine used a unique nozzle that never showed up again in later versions of the F-35.

Thank You so much for exactly proving my point ... and even more ironic, that @Asok once again failed to understand it.

Exactly what I said, it is impossible to mate from engine Type A the core with the bypass/fan-section from Type B + the nozzle from Type C like what some here describing:

Type A = WS-15 core
Type B = WS-10 bypass section
Type C = AL-31FN nozzle !

This would be as if You take a F414's core, mate it with the M.88's fan and use an EJ-200's nozzle since The AL-31 is a Russian engine, the WS-10 is build by Shenyang and the WS-15 at least planned from Xian.
Or in the same way take a French M.53 core, mate it with a GE F110's fan and add a P&W F100's nozzle ! Plain ridiculous, simply impossible since each part has to be carefully designed for a complete working system aka engine ... to plug and play does not fit !

In You example - and thanks again for it - You have a development path even mentioned in the first line from the same manufactor, aka Pratt & Whitney: So it is more than rationale that the F-119 evolved into the F135 and that unique nozzle You mentioned on the X-35 was only a one-off design prior to the F135's final nozzle design for the demonstrator X-35.

As such, to assume the "unique" silverish nozzle on the J-20 prototypes - which strangely disappeared then again on the LRIP-birds - should be already a WS-15 is so much off ...

Deino

 

[Asoka]

"Thank You so much for exactly proving my point ... and even more ironic, that @Asok once again failed to understand it."

What!!!

What happen to your assertion that J-20A is still using AL-31FN M2, as right now, and no version of WS-15 has not even been tested on J-20?

And if it's not true, you will resign your Moderator position and your PDF membership?

Now, you are an aerospace engineer, who tells the Chinese engineers that it is impossible to creates a new engine that uses a new Core, such as WS-15, and "adapts" existing technologies (Al-31FN, and WS-10) to be its front sections, and nozzle section?

You are not a Chemistry teacher during the day, and an Internet journalist, during the night and likes to write on Chinese Combat Planes?

Pardon me, please excuse my ignorance that you are a German Aviation/Aerospace Engineer. I offer my sincere apology. No wonder that you are damn sure that the Chinese can't produce a +210kN engine. You know, while I don't.

 

[Deino]

"Thank You so much for exactly proving my point ... and even more ironic, that @Asok once again failed to understand it."

What!!!

What happen to your assertion that J-20A is still using AL-31FN M2, as right now, and no version of WS-15 has not even been tested on J-20?

And if it's not true, you will resign your Moderator position and your PDF membership?

Indeed; as it seems reading comprehension is not Your part: First You don't notice that j20blackdragon's argument is in fact a contra-argument against Your own claims and now - instead of answering - You are pointing to my promise. Core to explain especially since with that latest reports my theory is more likely than Yours ??

So far we have NO, nada, KEINE, Nichts, NOT the slightest hint to a WS-15. All reports concerning the WS-15 say it is not ready . Several highly respected members repeatedly noted that ... and You are still claiming as if You are on a holy crusade to defend Your own fantasy this strange - in fact plain stupid - WS-15-theory.

Again: the day any official source like AVIC, CAC or the manufactor of the WS-15 says that the WS-15 is fully operational from day one J-20 no. '2001' flew - or even '2011' - I will resign officially my moderator status.
But as long as this hasn't happened, nothing changes ... and following the last statements Your position is getting slimmer and slimmer.

have a nice evening and keep on dreaming.
Deino

 

[Asoka]

"the day any official source like AVIC, CAC or the manufactor of the WS-15 says that the WS-15 is fully operational from day one J-20 no. '2001' flew - or even '2011' - I will resign officially my moderator status."

Nice try! "Fully operational" could mean different thing to different people.

Isn't your assertion is: J-20 #78275, and all previous versions, is still flying the bonafide Russian made, AL-31FN engine. And you call this AL-31FN equipped J-20, which is entering LRIP, the J-20A. And the WS-15 core or complete engine, has never even been tested on any versions of J-20, as of Mar 14, 2017?

Is that the essence of your assertion?

 

[Deino]

"the day any official source like AVIC, CAC or the manufactor of the WS-15 says that the WS-15 is fully operational from day one J-20 no. '2001' flew - or even '2011' - I will resign officially my moderator status."

Nice try!

Isn't your assertion is: J-20 #78275, and all previous versions, is still flying the bonafide Russian made, AL-31FN engine. And the WS-15 core or complete engine, has never been tested on any version of J-20, as of Mar 14, 2017?

Is that true?

Not sure if You either so much desperate that You always try to mix two different things or if You plain xxxx so that You cannot understand.

You are the one who is claiming all J-20 - including the demonstrator 2001 from day one - is using a super-secret special WS-15; You are the one who claims that this beast of an engine delivers already now +210 kN and that the J-20 can easily reach Mach 3. So much on Your fantasy.

Finally again to Your accusations and my claims:

1. J-20 #78275, and all previous versions, is still flying the bonafide Russian made, AL-31FN engine:

YES; so far all five LRIP J-20As and the prototypes 2011-2017 are using IMO a dedicated, custom-made - maybe co-developed and co-manufactured - uprated, specialised or whatever version of the AL-31FN-family. IMO - even if here I admit it is only a unproven theory - it is most likely a variant based on the AL-31FM2.

2. And the WS-15 core or complete engine, has never been tested on any version of J-20, as of Mar 14, 2017:

YES again, so far not a single WS-15 was ready for aerial testing in flight, not even in a Il-76LL and even less likely in any of the J-20, be these the two demonstrators, the prototypes or the few LRIP birds.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Therefore - and this is the final time I say this - "the day any official source like AVIC, CAC or the manufactor of the WS-15 says that the WS-15 is fully operational from day one (and that's important, since this is Your claim) J-20 no. '2001' flew (and not in about 4-5 years when finally a WS-15-prototype will be testflown for the first time) I will resign officially my moderator status."


In Germany one would say I have at least some eggs in my basket I'm willing to bet; You in return however are constantly looking for an excuse, searching for maybe this, maybe that and are spinning even more abstract theories. Even worse You are not reading properly - maybe You are simply not willing or able to do so - and are twisting words.

Again: this above is my statement, my bet and when someday any official source says so I will go; but please not after any random internet-page reports anything, a certain reporter (including Minnie Chan from the SCMP) tells anything.
And if You would be a man, You would try at least to stick to the facts.

Deino

 

[Asoka]

Thank you, very much for very honest, and straightforward answer. Deino. You are acting like a true German, ready to stand by his word. I might differ, vehemently, with you on the engine issue, but you got my respect, on this regard. No hostility or animosity is intended, from my part.

 

[帅的一匹]

@Deino WS15 is coming soon. An insider of NPC representative had confirmed it to the Media that WS15 will fly with J20 soon. The cheif designer of J20 Mr. Yang Wei said on the NPC session that his fighter is the proud of our nation.

many people had sacrificed their life for this gloried moment.

Thank you, very much for very honest, and straightforward answer. Deino. You are acting like a true German, ready to stand by his word. I might differ, vehemently, with you on the engine issue, but you got my respect, on this regard. No hostility or animosity is intended, from my part.

That's why I always favor Germany than many other European country, I think Germany has very good characteristic. USA currently intentionally suppress their ambition to rise, finally the Bismarck gene in their blood and bones will awaken. German was never a second rate nation.

 

[terranMarine]

@Deino WS15 is coming soon. An insider of NPC representative had confirmed it to the Media that WS15 will fly with J20 soon. The cheif designer of J20 Mr. Yang Wei said on the NPC session that his fighter is the proud of our nation.

many people had sacrificed their life for this gloried moment.


That's why I always favor Germany than many other European country, I think Germany has very good characteristic. USA currently intentionally suppress their ambition to rise, finally the Bismarck gene in their blood and bones will awaken. German was never a second rate nation.

I'm waiting for the rise of the Fourth Reich

 

[帅的一匹]

J20 is gonna fly with 142KN thrust WS10b, still need 5 or six years to wait WS15. I heard they reinvent some parts of WS15 engine (due to unsatisfaction some of the previous design performance), which means delay. Maybe they increase the original design specification, the thrust maybe much higher than 180KN. Maybe they want the new engine live up to F135 performance.

 

[帅的一匹]

https://view.inews.qq.com/a/20170314A0ASNS00

https://view.inews.qq.com/a/20170314A09D6300

The article says the current engine installed on J20 is Russian Al-31F-m1 with Max 13.2KN wet thrust. Even compatible with WS10b with 14.2 KN, J20 still hardly can make supercruise. F119 has 156KN thrust, we still have to work harder to achieve it. We are waiting for WS15, a engine which is better than F119.

We have to face the reality and avoid unnecessary claim.

 

[ChineseToTheBone]

I'm waiting for the rise of the Fourth Reich

You mean the European Union?

 

[帅的一匹]

In real war, there is no rank of second. Being second means you are dead! If J20 empty its missile and can't make super cruise, it dies when F22 hunt after him. The concept of hit and run is the key of 5th generation fighter!

Our engine development is at least 15 years behind United States of America. We shall not loose confidence, we need to work 10 times harder to compensate the difference.

Russia is very unhappy we develop new fighter based on Su27 series. They make different obstacles when we place orders of Russian engine for J11b series. We had to overhaul the old Al3F engine back in 2007-2009 to power our own J11 series. J16 will install WS10b in the coming years too. As an IEP version of WS10 engine, it has 200 hours life span less than the basic version of WS10A. All he problem will be solved until WS15 put in to place. We still have to wait 5 or 6 years to get the threshhold.

China has came very close to the second best stealthy fighter developer in the world. But being second means you are still not good enough(the most fatal one is that the first guy is not our ally but damn potential rival)! To be or not to be, that's a question depending on the thrust of engine!

Time to wake up and start to work guys!