Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[Tiqiu]

这里说没有搞无源相控阵，指的是机载预警雷达没搞无源相控阵，并非机载火控雷达没搞无源相控阵。

Are you being serious?

Read, or ask others to read this simple sentence again before we talk again.

"我国以机载预警雷达为突破口，实现了机载雷达装备从机械扫描到有源相控阵的跨越，没有搞无源相控阵,在世界上首次装备二维有源相控阵预警雷达，也就是说雷达波束在水平方向上和高度方向上都能电子扫描，由此也带动了战斗机火控雷达装备采用有源相控阵。"

Exactement, yesterday in an another TV footage, one of the academicians from CETC 14th confirmed that they have already developed PESA for fire control radar.

Henri K.

Needless to say, you know whom I pick between you or Mr.Cao, the deputy chief designer of the Chinese AWCAS including ZDK03

Ok. ... but what was wrong with the number of aircraft for the J-10A batches or did I mistunderstand Your reply ?

What's Your guess then on the number of J-10B/C build so far and You mentioned, that they are already assigned to 6 regiments: Care to explain which ones ?
As far as I know only the 170. Brigade FTTC, a Regiment within the 2. Division and 19. Division are confirmed. For the C there are also reports about another maybe within the 44. Division and Huitong also mentions the 21. Division and 176. Brigade, but for the 21. Div these were J-10A as far as I know and for the 176. I don't think the PLAAF will add another plane to the J-20s. I think they are more likely also within the 170. Brigade complementing the J-10B.

So what do You know, what's Your guess?

Thanks in advance,
Deino

I think the J-10A's number is accurate. I speculate that the batch1 of 24 was for FTRC, and 4 each for 10 regiments in the next 6 consecutive batches to reach 24 in each full regiment.

 

[星海军事]

Are you being serious?

Read, or ask others to read this simple sentence again before we talk again.

"我国以机载预警雷达为突破口，实现了机载雷达装备从机械扫描到有源相控阵的跨越，没有搞无源相控阵,在世界上首次装备二维有源相控阵预警雷达，也就是说雷达波束在水平方向上和高度方向上都能电子扫描，由此也带动了战斗机火控雷达装备采用有源相控阵。"




Needless to say, you know whom I pick between you or Mr.Cao, the deputy chief designer of the Chinese AWCAS including ZDK03






I think the J-10A's number is accurate. I speculate that the batch1 of 24 was for FTRC, and 4 each for 10 regiments in the next 6 consecutive batches to reach 24 in each full regiment.

It is simply your misunderstanding.

China has a long history of developing PESA radar and we already have airborne PESA fire control radar deployed.

Our first practical airborne PESA fire control radar was exactly developed by the 14th Research Institute of CETC.

Apart from the 14th Institute, Radar and Electronics Equipment Research Institute of AVIC also has the experience of designing airborne PESA fire control radar.

 

[hk299792458]

I always ask myself why there is always a small group of fanboys who just can't listen to the fact, and prefer believe what they want to believe ?

A real strange phenomenon for me...

@星海军事, would you mind to share with me the original document for your last image ? You can just send it to me by MP or Email if you want. Thanks.

Henri K.

 

[Tiqiu]

It is simply your misunderstanding.

China has a long history of developing PESA radar and we already have airborne PESA fire control radar deployed.

It seems you are the one misunderstood here. The focal point of my discussion with Dieno was whether J-10B used PESA or AESA, which in turn would give us a base to judge if J-10C became alive due to the radar upgrade. In order to prove my point that J-10B used AESA, I gave the link of the interview of the Chinese airborne radar designer at CETC and quoted his very sentence about the Chinese airborne radar which I summarized as “China never developed PESA”

So first of the first, instead of nitpicking, you could have just come straight to the point to rebut my conclusion by simply providing an image of this PESA depicted in your billboard photo on the J-10B

Second, isn't it better if you could put down the translation of that one sentence I quoted to let other non-Chinese members to judge whether I was misunderstood? Since you didn't bother, so I translated this one sentence word-for-word to prevent what he truly wanted to say from getting lost in translation/context.

Here below is the translation from the original sentence that follows:
“Using the development of airborne early warning radar as a breaking point, our country achieved the leap forward from mechanically-scanned to AESA for our airborne radar system, without developing PESA, became the first country in the world to equip a two-dimensional AESA, in other words the radar wave can scan horizontally and vertically, which drove the use of the AESA on fighter jets.”

"我国以机载预警雷达为突破口，实现了机载雷达装备从机械扫描到有源相控阵的跨越，没有搞无源相控阵,在世界上首次装备二维有源相控阵预警雷达，也就是说雷达波束在水平方向上和高度方向上都能电子扫描，由此也带动了战斗机火控雷达装备采用有源相控阵。"

You could argue that I should not have just summarized in few words of this one-but-rather-very-lengthy sentence. You could even argue that I might not have known this Chinese PESA until you brought it up. But you could not argue it contradicts what I said about the J-10B using AESA.

BTW, your understanding of this sentence was wrong. You said: “这里说没有搞无源相控阵，指的是机载预警雷达没搞无源相控阵，并非机载火控雷达没搞无源相控阵。” I think any members here with sound Chinese language skills could tell that your interpretation and summarization is wrong. Read the whole original sentence, especially the very end of the sentence of “which drove the use of the AESA on fighter jets”, I can't see from where you got the idea that He meant, as you interpreted in your reply in Chinese, that " no-development of AESA here means no-development of AESA for airborne AWCAS, not no-development for airborne fire control radar."

Third, since you did not provide links, so I don't know whether your images are from open credible sources or genuine. Even if they are verifiable, it was clearly stated it was for the L-15B, a non-fighter jet technically speaking. Also the fact that it did not have an official model name may suggest it was just a prototype or a certain type of research endeavorment, not the full development project enlisted by the army establishments for Chinese FIGHTER JETS.

Forth, if this PESA is a matured product, then why no Chinese FIGHTER JETS were reported using it so far? Not even JF-17 thunder? Why still no images of it even we already had images of the more advanced/classified Chinese AESA for J-10,J-16 and J-20?

Lastly, at Dingxin base PLAAF conducted “red sword” military exercise in med-Nov., in which the J-10B was said to play the main attackers. Now we all know that two J-20 jets have taken part in this exercise and allegedly scored 10:0 against J-10B. Do you seriously believe the PESA-equipped J-10B can take on the J-20?

I always ask myself why there is always a small group of fanboys who just can't listen to the fact, and prefer believe what they want to believe ?

A real strange phenomenon for me...

Actually I am quite happy being named “fanboy” for simply I prefer believe what I thought it is trustworthy and from credible sources, not from a pseudo-journalist in Chinese military affairs like you.

The difference between Deino and you is he lacks of audacity than you .

 

[hk299792458]

Actually I am quite happy being named “fanboy” for simply I prefer believe what I thought it is trustworthy and from credible sources, not from a pseudo-journalist in Chinese military affairs like you.

The difference between Deino and you is he lacks of audacity than you .

Have a look on this my young, listen very carefully to what the academician from CETC 14th say from the begining till the end, then please come back and tell me if China has already developped PESA fire control radar for military aircraft.

And to be clear on one point, I'm not a pseudo-journalist, I work in aviation industry and my website is just for my personal passion on China.

IMPO, Deino is too "soft" with fanboy, if I'm moderator I would prefer make them all banned and let the place for those who want to discuss normally.

Henri K.

 

[Tiqiu]

Have a look on this my young, listen very carefully to what the academician from CETC 14th say from the begining till the end, then please come back and tell me if China has already developped PESA fire control radar for military aircraft.

I have watched every bit of it, getting perfectly clear about what he said. To make sure you know what you are talking about, I need you quote his saying re: PESA first before I give you my comments.

And to be clear on one point, I'm not a pseudo-journalist, I work in aviation industry and my website is just for my personal passion on China.

Sounded very Impressive. But your contribution here didn't seem to add up to your claim.Or maybe you just enjoy free-riding.

IMPO, Deino is too "soft" with fanboy, if I'm moderator I would prefer make them all banned and let the place for those who want to discuss normally.

You didn't read the comments of your reader on your site, did you? And without the lead and info provided by many your socalled "fanboys" here, you have nothing to write about the Chinese military affairs.

 

[星海军事]

First, by quoting and underlining this sentence in this particular situation, I suppose you are arguing that China did not develop any airborne fire control radar.

Are you being serious?

Read, or ask others to read this simple sentence again before we talk again.

"我国以机载预警雷达为突破口，实现了机载雷达装备从机械扫描到有源相控阵的跨越，没有搞无源相控阵,在世界上首次装备二维有源相控阵预警雷达，也就是说雷达波束在水平方向上和高度方向上都能电子扫描，由此也带动了战斗机火控雷达装备采用有源相控阵。"

But your translation of the sentence has an obvious omission,

“Using the development of airborne early warning radar as a breaking point, our country achieved the leap forward from mechanically-scanned to AESA for our airborne radar system, without developing PESA, became the first country in the world to equip a two-dimensional AESA, in other words the radar wave can scan horizontally and vertically, which drove the use of the AESA on fighter jets.”

The correct translation should be,

“Using the development of airborne early warning radar as a breaking point, our country achieved the leap forward from mechanically-scanned to AESA for our airborne radar system, without developing PESA, became the first country in the world to equip a two-dimensional AESA early warning radar, in other words the radar wave can scan horizontally and vertically, which drove the use of the AESA on fighter jets.”

As I have already exemplified, China did develope and deploy airborne PESA fire control radar. However, J-10C, J-16/16D and J-11D are clearly equiped with AESA fire control radar. Therefore, the only fighter that is equiped with PESA fire control radar ought to be J-10B.

It seems you are the one misunderstood here. The focal point of my discussion with Dieno was whether J-10B used PESA or AESA,

Did I misunderstood anything or did you get all the points?

By all appearances, the first half of the sentence you quote is merely suggesting China did not develope airborne PESA early warning radar.

“We did develope PESA. For instance, J-10 is equipted with PESA.” -- N.A. Ben De, chief designer of the 14th institute, first man of Chinese phased array radar

 

[Tiqiu]

@hk299792458, I knew you would hide behind your mate's shadow waiting for @星海军事 to answer for you , that is why I asked you to quote what the man said in that video. You are too predictable.

First, by quoting and underlining this sentence in this particular situation, I suppose you are arguing that China did not develop any airborne fire control radar.

Then you should at least make yourself aware about what Deino and I were talking about before offload yourself on someone.

But your translation of the sentence has an obvious omission,

Thanks for agreeing all my translation "Using the development of airborne early warning radar as a breaking point, our country achieved the leap forward from mechanically-scanned to AESA for our airborne radar system, without developing PESA, became the first country in the world to equip a two-dimensional AESA early warning radar, in other words the radar wave can scan horizontally and vertically, which drove the use of the AESA on fighter jets.”, except the 3-word "early warning radar" I forgot.

If you thought I did this "obvious omission" on purpose, then what I should call you who tried to make non-Chinese members to believe that the sentence means "no-development of AESA here means no-development of AESA for airborne AWCAS, not no-development for airborne fire control radar."?

As I have already exemplified, China did develope and deploy airborne PESA fire control radar. However, J-10C, J-16/16D and J-11D are clearly equiped with AESA fire control radar. Therefore, the only fighter that is equiped with PESA fire control radar ought to be J-10B.

What did Mr Ben De say does lead to your above conclusion.

This is what he said at 6:56:" 无源相控阵过去俄罗斯用的比较多,我们也做过无援无源相控阵,我们J-10飞机上就用过无源相控阵". My translation of it is " in the past Russia used many PESA, we did/tried to do PESA, it had been put on our J-10". The informal use and the past tense of the verb 做过(did/tried) and 用过(was used/been tested) may suggest China may have developed some prototype of PESA or maybe borrowed some Russian model,a full swing official enlisted development of PESA hasn't been really undergone.

At 9:58 he said:" J-20 is the first to use AESA; J-10 changed to AESA as well( he did not specify changing from Pulse Doppler or PESA), J-11 also used it; we will covert all our old radar to AESA on all our jets like the US".

Not at one single point of time has he ever mentioned or hinted that J-10 is equipped with PESA.

To end all this madness, just give us the model name and images of this obsolete/knock off PESA you said China developed.

Ok. ... but what was wrong with the number of aircraft for the J-10A batches or did I mistunderstand Your reply ?

What's Your guess then on the number of J-10B/C build so far and You mentioned, that they are already assigned to 6 regiments: Care to explain which ones ?
As far as I know only the 170. Brigade FTTC, a Regiment within the 2. Division and 19. Division are confirmed. For the C there are also reports about another maybe within the 44. Division and Huitong also mentions the 21. Division and 176. Brigade, but for the 21. Div these were J-10A as far as I know and for the 176. I don't think the PLAAF will add another plane to the J-20s. I think they are more likely also within the 170. Brigade complementing the J-10B.

So what do You know, what's Your guess?

Thanks in advance,
Deino

who is Huitong? I think he is right about 21 as 61 regiment has 18+6 facing Korea.

 

[Beast]

JL-10/ L-15 equipped with PESA but I believe it's for export only. PLAAF L-15/JL-10 are w/o radar

 

[hk299792458]

@hk299792458, I knew you would hide behind your mate's shadow waiting for @星海军事 to answer for you , that is why I asked you to quote what the man said in that video. You are too predictable.

Then you should at least make yourself aware about what Deino and I were talking about before offload yourself on someone.


Thanks for agreeing all my translation "Using the development of airborne early warning radar as a breaking point, our country achieved the leap forward from mechanically-scanned to AESA for our airborne radar system, without developing PESA, became the first country in the world to equip a two-dimensional AESA early warning radar, in other words the radar wave can scan horizontally and vertically, which drove the use of the AESA on fighter jets.”, except the 3-word "early warning radar" I forgot.

If you thought I did this "obvious omission" on purpose, then what I should call you who tried to make non-Chinese members to believe that the sentence means "no-development of AESA here means no-development of AESA for airborne AWCAS, not no-development for airborne fire control radar."?


What did Mr Ben De say does lead to your above conclusion.

This is what he said at 6:56:" 无源相控阵过去俄罗斯用的比较多,我们也做过无援无源相控阵,我们J-10飞机上就用过无源相控阵". My translation of it is " in the past Russia used many PESA, we did/tried to do PESA, it had been put on our J-10". The informal use and the past tense of the verb 做过(did/tried) and 用过(was used/been tested) may suggest China may have developed some prototype of PESA or maybe borrowed some Russian model,a full swing official enlisted development of PESA hasn't been really undergone.

At 9:58 he said:" J-20 is the first to use AESA; J-10 changed to AESA as well( he did not specify changing from Pulse Doppler or PESA), J-11 also used it; we will covert all our old radar to AESA on all our jets like the US".

Not at one single point of time has he ever mentioned or hinted that J-10 is equipped with PESA.

To end all this madness, just give us the model name and images of this obsolete/knock off PESA you said China developed.


who is Huitong? I think he is right about 21 as 61 regiment has 18+6 facing Korea.

The initial point is, you misunderstandsomething and quoted that China didn't develop any PESA radar.

Either @星海军事 or myself we have provided undiscutable fact. So, now young boy, please stick to the reality and recognize your error.

But if you want to continue this game, be sure that I'll be here. For the time being I've a lot of time to lose.

Henri K.

 

[Tiqiu]

The initial point is, you misunderstandsomething and quoted that China didn't develop any PESA radar.

No, the initial point is in my lengthy discussion with Dieno I advocated that J-10C is not the product of upgrading ASEA from PESA as no PESA has been developed(in the from of the Official enlisted project). This "China never developed PESA's idea came from the Vice-chief designer of the Chinese airborne radar in his interview on the army open media.

Either @星海军事 or myself we have provided undiscutable fact. So, now young boy, please stick to the reality and recognize your error.

You provided nothing since you just gave me a link of a video which you could not understand a single word of it. As a matter of fact, any Chinese member here can come up with any link of something on the Chinese websites - it is a peanut.

And your mate @星海军事 proved nothing as well. He misinterpreted Mr De's words in his saying “We did develope PESA. For instance, J-10 is equipted with PESA.” I don't know whether he did it on purpose,or due to other reasons, however Mr De did not say WE "We did develop PESA ,J-10 is equipped with PESA". What he said in his original words were " 无源相控阵过去俄罗斯用的比较多,我们也做过无援无源相控阵,我们J-10飞机上就用过无源相控阵". In English it means" in the past Russia used many PESA, we did/tried to do PESA, it had been put on our J-10".

How many times I have to ask you to read this again? The two verbs Mr De used were did/made/attempted/trialed, and used/tested/examined. He did not use the word "develop" and "deploy" at all. Perhaps it is time for you to remind your mate@星海军事 to take care of his present/past tense using skills. There is a huge difference between " PESA was used on J-10" and "J-10 is equiped with PESA".

Me De did not say " we developed PESA"; Me De did not say "J-10 is equipped with PESA"; You and you mate @星海军事 could not tell us the model name of this PESA used on the J-10B as I asked;You and you mate @星海军事 could not provide an image of this PESA as I asked. Therefore @星海军事 hasn't produced any your so-called "undiscussable" evidence at all.

Any body can easily find some images of the Chinese AESA from the net. Why is it so hard for your two to provide a damn picture of this PESA you said China has developed?

So, now young boy, please stick to the reality and recognize your error.

But if you want to continue this game, be sure that I'll be here. For the time being I've a lot of time to lose.

Henri K.

Unlike you, i actually loved being called young boy - I love soccer, been playing none-stop for nearly 40 yrs, my avatar name is kicking ball.

But if you want to indulge yourself into being snobby or conceited in front of us, you would certainly be humiliated. You may have achieved something, so have others. There are more than a hundred people like you( like you means culture background,race,etc) with engineering degree under my supervision. I work where I want, when I want and how I want. Moreover, I have more time to spend here than you if this is what you wanted me to do. You want any prove?

 

[hk299792458]

You provided nothing since you just gave me a link of a video which you could not understand a single word of it.

Ho ho, it is not because I'm a "foreigner" that I can't understand well the chinese langage.

Just for you information, the kind of things I read everyday is something like that -

But it's ok, if it is too hard for you to read those kind of thing, I can understand.

And your mate @星海军事 proved nothing as well. He misinterpreted Mr De's words in his saying “We did develope PESA. For instance, J-10 is equipted with PESA.” I don't know whether he did it on purpose,or due to other reasons, however Mr De did not say WE "We did develop PESA ,J-10 is equipped with PESA". What he said in his original words were " 无源相控阵过去俄罗斯用的比较多,我们也做过无援无源相控阵,我们J-10飞机上就用过无源相控阵". In English it means" in the past Russia used many PESA, we did/tried to do PESA, it had been put on our J-10".

Don't go too far first. Let's start with the original point - Had China already developped PESA radar, and used it somewhere ?

This is quoted from the video that I put in the previous page, but that you don't seem to understand. Let me be more precise then...
(Just saw that @星海军事 quoted the same, my bad..)







Now, if you have difficulties in understanding your mother tongue, I can give you some courses for free.

Recognize your error, and we can continue to discuss deployment of chinese PESA radars, or maybe give you some basic course on what is an ESA radar ?

I can even advise you a few reading I used a few years ago, the last one is really nice -

Very pleased to continue with you, young boy of 40 years-old... At least I got a lot of fun.

Henri K.

 

[Tiqiu]

Ho ho, it is not because I'm a "foreigner" that I can't understand well the chinese langage.

Just for you information, the kind of things I read everyday is something like that -

So what? Are you trying to tell me because I drove my German car every day, then I must be an expert mechanical engineer in German cars?

Don't go too far first. Let's start with the original point - Does China had already developped PESA radar, and used it somewhere ?

Do not twist the words in front of everyone here from “We did develope PESA. For instance, J-10 is equipted with PESA.” -- N.A. Ben De, chief designer of the 14th institute, first man of Chinese phased array radar to "Does China had already developped PESA radar, and used it somewhere ?"


To prove you don't need the Chinese tutoring from me, read the interview again and come back to me without your mate's help

http://club.china.com/data/thread/12171906/2736/26/18/9_1.html

Recognize your error, and we can continue to discuss deployment of chinese PESA radars, or maybe give you some basic course on what is an ESA radar ?

What error? Just tell me did Mr De in the footage say “We did develope PESA. For instance, J-10 is equipted with PESA.”?

At 6:56 he said:" 无源相控阵过去俄罗斯用的比较多,我们也做过无援无源相控阵,我们J-10飞机上就用过无源相控阵". Ask anyone here who have a basic apprehension skills in Chinese language and basic English skills per present/past tense, no one can come up the same translation. I ll give my car away as a trophy for the one who can.

Very pleased to continue with you, young boy... At least I got a lot of fun.

Challenge accepted. I have too much time to kill.

 

[hk299792458]

So what? Are you trying to tell me because I drove my German car every day, then I must be an expert mechanical engineer in German cars?

At first you said that I can't understand one single word in the video, and now when you see that your original sentence had zero sense, you just try to bypass it ?

Once again you use the same technic, but it's not working on me.

You know you are a funny guys ? Do you understand why I call you young boy now ?

http://club.china.com/data/thread/12171906/2736/26/18/9_1.html

View attachment 360657

曹晨 from CETC is one of the responsible of AWACS radar development, what's the link with what we are talking about ?

Because CETC didn't develop PESA for AWACS, and so you deduce that it never developped PESA for fire control radar ?

You know you are funny young boy ?

At 6:56 he said:" 无源相控阵过去俄罗斯用的比较多,我们也做过无源相控阵,我们J-10飞机上就用过无源相控阵".

So, at least you admit the FACT that CETC had developped PESA ? So I accepted that you've recognized your initial error.

And I find you funny that you now try to protect yourself by adding a new word : "for instance".

What the academician said clearly make you wrong from the beginning, that you said :

But J-10B never used PESA; it used AESA from the day one.

And now ? Don't escape, face your error, and regconize it (well in some way you've already done, so...)

Challenge accepted. I have too much time to kill.

Don't worry, this game can last for years... Ready ?

Henri K.

 

[Tiqiu]

At first you said that I can't understand one single word in the video, and now when you see that your original sentence had zero sense, you just try to bypass it ?

Once again you use the same technic, but it's not working on me.

You know you are a funny guys ? Do you understand why I call you young boy now ?

Calling me " boy, funny guys,funny young boy, my young ,fanboys " does not tell others about me, it does tell others about you. Got it?

Before answering any of your question in relation to radars, just answer me if this statement made by your mate @星海军事 is true of false?

“We did develope PESA. For instance, J-10 is equipted with PESA.” -- N.A. Ben De, chief designer of the 14th institute, first man of Chinese phased array radar

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/chengdu-...fighter-air-craft.3218/page-553#ixzz4SyEZMQE7
https://defence.pk/threads/chengdu-...fighter-air-craft.3218/page-553#ixzz4SyEZMQE7

And now ? Don't escape, face your error, and regconize it (well in some way you've already done, so...)

You are playing God now. This sense of self-righteousness exhibited by what you just said is shared by some of your countrymen. I wonder why.

Don't worry, this game can last for years... Ready ?

Henri K.

Shouldn't we need to seek the permission of @Deino and others' first to be respectful? You do know "respectful", right?
I already told you to bring it on. Maybe it is better off we do it on a designated thread?