Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[Glitcher]

Neither is there a spending cut that effects Rafale procurement, nor would a J10 procurement would have anything to do with it, since PAF would mainly try to improve it's own technical capabilities. However, that can be done with J10 or JF 17 future blocks, which makes the deal questionable as well. The longer it takes, the closer you get to JF 17 Block 3 and that again means, the lower the benefit from J10B for PAF. So if China wants to sell it, you better hurry finishing radar and engine developments according to PAFs needs.

Agreed and hi to all iam new here

 

[Glitcher]

JF-17 blk 3 & thn 4 & thn 5 & thn 6?
No thts what the problem is, if this theory goes in practical , no country devlop another aircraft?
JF-T have its own dynamics & can be improved to a certain level with a time frame?
J10s have their own class & use for godsake???

Sir it does not mean we will wait for j10's forever but we will have time to develop our own JFT's rather rushing towards J10's you can see it by this way is india had rafale earlier then we would have gone for J10A's but due to delays now we are going for J10b's correct me if i am wrong i am a new member and could learn a lot from you and others

 

[sancho]

JF-17 blk 3 & thn 4 & thn 5 & thn 6?

Block 3, just like Block 2 might offer any technical and load capability J10A offers. So when techs, most weapons and even the load capability will be similar, why would PAF pay more for a J10, instead of buying a JFT that you co-developed?
J10 does have some advantages, but nothing that couldn't be added to JFT either, be it IRST, AESA radar, a pod station, a refuelling pod (available in JFT Block2). Which makes the performance difference for PAF not that big, as a J11B for example would offer.

 

[Gentelman]

Agreed and hi to all iam new here

learn to thank to respect and to first introduce yourself in member Introduction section.....

 

[Glitcher]

Block 3, just like Block 2 might offer any technical and load capability J10A offers. So when techs, most weapons and even the load capability will be similar, why would PAF pay more for a J10, instead of buying a JFT that you co-developed?
J10 does have some advantages, but nothing that couldn't be added to JFT either, be it IRST, AESA radar, a pod station, a refuelling pod (available in JFT Block2). Which makes the performance difference for PAF not that big, as a J11B for example would offer.

Sir do you mean that PAF should not go for J10's ? and stay with JFT's only thats not enough and both are diffrent aircraft with diffrent air frame.s Etc

 

[Storm Force]

Rafale is 100% GURANTEED purchase. THE only issue when will the deal be signed ie by June 2013 or DEC 2013.

The TOT and pricing is all DONE. The only sticking POINT is the WORK SHARE of DASSULT & HAL & (RELIANCE industries)

Dassult keen to OUTSOURCE more reliance THE INDIAN MOD want HAL to take the WORK ON.

COMING BACK TO J10/ PURCHASE.

I agree to a certain extent with sancho .... YOU GUYS/PAF are about to spend 15 years & billions $$4 on JF17 which is your single seat CHINEASE ORIGIN fighter carrying CHINEASE weapons & chinease radars.

WHY WOULD YOU THEN spend $billions more ON YET ANOTHER chinease fighter carrying the SAME RADAR AND SAME WEAPONS but on a slightly bigger airframe.

" WOULD IT NOT MAKE SENSE TO SPEND THAT $$$$$ ON A WESTERN PLATFORM offering different weapons different radar.

with JF17 & J10B you are duplicating radars EW suites & weaopons...

THE PLAAF themselves will only INDUCT J10 and not JF17...

YOU NEED TO ADD TOPLINE WESTERN TECHNOLOGY as well CHINEASE weapons.

 

[araz]

The problem is purely a financial one. Adding more JFT is a necessity which is agreed by all. Adding a later block with IRST,dual ejector racks and a refueling probe with the possibility of an AESA radar and 2 additional hardpoints(even for a pod) would suffice for PAFs needs for 6-8 yrs. As mentioned before the high ups in PAF feel there is security in numbers in the case of F16s and financially with the begging bowl out it wont break the bank either.
Post 2018-20 all the money that we have(or dont) can be utilized to buy J 31 with commonality between it and JFTwith regards to engine a d even some avuonics. Overall it would prove to be a much more effective package considering the adversary will have Rafale and pakfa. This I feel is what is the thought process within the PAF currently.You can argue with it but it does sound logical.
Araz

 

[jupiter2007]

With current economical situation in Pakistan, Pakistan is not going to be able to match India. Corrupted PPP government has cost Pakistan 91 billion in 5 years including millions that Gilani spend on shopping in UK. India has lots of $$$ to spend. Pakistan needs to keep working on Jf-17 project and keep working on Minimum deterrence strategy.


Indian Air force Inventory and projects.

Sukhoi Su-30MKI - In Service= 172+
Mikoyan MiG-29 - In Service= 68
Dassault Mirage 2000 - In Service= 45
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - In Service= 153
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-27 Bahadur - In Service= 102
SEPECAT Jaguar - In Service= 151


HAL Tejas project cost 3 billon, 6 prototypes, 16 LSP aircraft build so far, 40 are on order, estimated cost of each aircraft is around 31million.

Indian Air Force Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), India selected 126 French Dassault Rafale multi-role combat aircraft,
estimated cost of planes and weapon system USD 20 billion. Contract will be signed in Decmber 2013.

Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) Proposed project: Program cost: 20 billion
- 1st flight 2020
- 2nd flight 2022
- Inroduction 2025

Sukhoi/HAL FGFA Project, program cost 30 billion, unit cost $100 million
Induction 2022

 

[muse]

The problem is purely a financial one. As mentioned before the high ups in PAF feel there is security in numbers in the case of F16s and financially with the begging bowl out it wont break the bank either.
Post 2018-20 all the money that we have(or dont) can be utilized to buy J 31 with commonality between it and JFTwith regards to engine a d even some avuonics. Overall it would prove to be a much more effective package considering the adversary will have Rafale and pakfa. This I feel is what is the thought process within the PAF currently.You can argue with it but it does sound logical.
Araz

Problem simply "financial" ? No, sir, the financial bit is symptom of the problem - Problem is no Economy. As predicted (foretold) more F16 and deeper in unkil's pocket - as far as j31 is concerned, is this going to be a mass produced fighter? or is it test bed? What do we know about it's avionics? it's performance? it's material? Next to nothing and yet we will put all our money into it? most unlikely.
So what we may have in the near future is a weapon system that we don't have control over and yet another weapon system about which we know next to nothing - in the case of the weapon system actually be used, we will find ourselves crying "betrayal" because when we most need them, the suppliers will be unable, even if they wanted to help, to assist us, when we most will need diplomatic support we will not be able to avail it ; but then PAF do not get paid to think.

 

[Manticore]

As many posters pointed out earlier, jf-17 should have been designed as a medium weight fighter to begin with [which raises the question of why paf not entered the j10 program] ,medium weight jf17 of which we could have made several blocks based on technological complexity -- or in my case, I raised some questions back in 2009 that we should have had invested in the j10 project --I had raised the questions as to why paf would be getting 3 different platforms [f16,jf17,j10] in the 4.5 gen category? What political/military decisions were questionable?The answer was having financial constraints and a defensive doctrine

Now we still need to get an high end fighter, take into consideration our economy but also look at the realistic time frame of j31's production--- We cant afford to waste another decade by staying idle in hopes of getting a mature j31 platform but we cant use all our resources on 4.5 gen fighters either -- The question is time frame
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...e-invested-more-j-10s-rather-than-jf-17s.html

 

[sancho]

Sir do you mean that PAF should not go for J10's ? and stay with JFT's only thats not enough and both are diffrent aircraft with diffrent air frame.s Etc

Just call me Sancho. Yes, at this point modernised versions of JF 17 looks preferable for PAF. Their airframes are indeed different and although the delta canard design looks tempting, but both have the same numbers of wetstations, the same number of wingstations, will have similar techs, will both offer IFR and the same weapons anyway.
So there is no big performance difference for PAF by adding J10B, while adding higher numbers of more cost-effective JF17s now might free budgets to add J31 in future, which would be a real game changer for PAF, something that J10 can't be anymore and not with such a limited upgrade.

 

[sancho]

The answer was having financial constraints and a defensive doctrine

I asked this earlier as well and I still think the J10 would have offered PAF a better basline plattform, the answers I got from senior Pakistani members was, that China didn't offered a partnership in this project, only in JF17. That might have been a blow back then, but at this point, JF17 fullfils everything PAF wants from a baseline fighter, while the difference in performance is not that big anymore to invest in J10 now, especially with the prospect of NG fighters in future.
The doctrine can't be a reason btw, because you can operate even an F22 with a defensive doctrine, only for air defence reasons, so that has nothing to do with the selection of a fighter.

 

[Manticore]

I asked this earlier as well and I still think the J10 would have offered PAF a better basline plattform, the answers I got from senior Pakistani members was, that China didn't offered a partnership in this project, only in JF17. That might have been a blow back then, but at this point, JF17 fullfils everything PAF wants from a baseline fighter, while the difference in performance is not that big anymore to invest in J10 now, especially with the prospect of NG fighters in future.
The doctrine can't be a reason btw, because you can operate even an F22 with a defensive doctrine, only for air defence reasons, so that has nothing to do with the selection of a fighter.

sir xman
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...re-j-10s-rather-than-jf-17s-2.html#post275885

santro would you be kind enough post your thoughts on some of the long list of questions I had put forth in my first post of that thread -- particularly this aspect

This was my first post on this forum and my questions were not very welcoming for some

JF17 pros

*already some of the systems put in j10 are in jf17 (so ivwe read) so, the subsequent batch inshallah if better might reach the complexity of j10... so why then go for more j10s if [[gradually]] u'll end up upgrading jf7s to j10s (i.e f16 block52+)performance anyway.

where does the jf-17 lack as compared to the j10 and how does this handicap affect paf? can the paf ''afford'' this handicap?why didnt we design a medium wt fighter? why didnt we not make a air superiority design delta/canards


what will be the level till which we would ultimately upgrade jft before the 'cost effectiveness' diminishes and the cost of jft blk3 reaches close to j10

what will be handicaps even in jft blk3 due to structural size restictions and design properties?





5th gen fighter
we should clearly define one chinese 5th gen. and only induct 20 aircrafts for long range bombing/airsuperiority/deterent/protection of our skies etc... of western origin rather than to wait for chinese 5th gen as there are no official chinese 5th gen fighters in the open to counter pakfa


Ideal LOW END to HIGH END ratio?
jft blk1: jft blk2 : f16 + j10 : chinese 5th gen
. ...and i want to know about this by our veterans here ,to ellaborate on this fact

 

[Manticore]

One may disagree with the assessment but PAF's reluctance for J-10B is very much due to the T-50 development for IAF. Pakistan will definitely go for J-31 bypassing J-10s if India proceeds to acquire PAK-FA (T-50). PAF has been thinking far ahead of many of us.

There are some other reasons behind the decision not to go for J-10 that I am unable to disclose. What I have heard does not make sense to me at all. China will provide the money for these acquisition on very soft loans. Even Chinese feel that it is in their interest to export J-31 than J-10s ( Dont ask me why?). Strange things going on in PAF and Chinese Governments but they both are on the same page.

Ukrainian engine and DRFM have both been on the agenda as I had heard and reported. Situation has been very fluid and nothing seems to materialize, Both China and Pakistan are reacting to situation in our neighborhood . Requirements are changing daily, hence the new thinking about J-10s. I have a feeling that JF-17 may get all the capabilities that J-10s has and make it the bulwark and then add J-31.

Do not know how they will achieve that but that seems to be the current thinking.

sir pshamim

 

[Storm Force]

PAF have made their bed with JF17 IMO.

has somebody said in a earlier POST there is not SUFFICIENT MONIES to buy 100+ FC20 and to acquire 3 blocks of SUCCESSIVE IMPROVED JF17.

Something has to GIVE AND ultimately i think it will be the J10/FC20...

I would be very surprised if PAF now buys this fighter.

RATHER INSTEAD I THINK PAF

WILL answer the MKI threat with more 2nd hand F16s & the jft block 2 & 3 AND USE force multiplers to try and stay in a battle over their own air space.

PAF realise that ather than blow several $billion on FC20 they better just wait for J31 from CHINA ny 2020 TIMEFRAME.

just to put PEOPLES MINDS as ease this is my BEST GUESS as IAF transformation threat to PAF

SU30MKI around 165 today rising to 272 by 2018
Rafale F3 but not until 2015 AND TAKING UNTIL 2024 to deliver license build 126 PLANES
FGFA PAK FA will nor arrive in IAF until 2022 minimum

THE OTHER fighters mig29 smt mig29k mirage2000-5 & lca tejas mk1 the PAF can handle with JFT & F16s