Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[TAC]

No, but they do suffice.
So that the PAF isnt that upset about letting the J-10 go for now.

Agreed - but I would suggest that this just buys PAF some time and reduces the urgency of a J-10B type, does not do away with the need altogether.

 

[Luftwaffe]

J-10A is a heavier class fighter, more expensive to buy and operate - does not realy fit with what PAF wanted from the JF-17. On the contrary, despite meagre resources and limits on who will supply PAF has shown exceptional initiative to get itself where it is now.

Please take time to read my last 3-4 posts you are going in the opposite direction to whatever I am saying.

We are speaking of J-10s and all the costs and Years to come not pop corn machine that is replaced every now and then BLK III more or less can say goodbye to J-10B. by 2020+ would be damn time for Twin Engine your neighbor is growing unlike PAF, you need heavy capabilities if not quantity; JFT, F-16 and in Future J-31 or any other comparable can help you provided WILL & CASH.

TAC, what would be the price tag when BLK III is under construction or available would it be cheap....No eventually it might be as much as $30M.

 

[MastanKhan]

Thats like saying why did U.S. bother to make F-16A/B --- why didn't they just make the C/D. It is normal to upgrade in blocks in line with a maturing platform - nothing to do with management. Regardless - that's better discussed on JF-17 thread.



Has the U.S. learnt from their 'mistake' of making F-16A/B first and only then investing in F-16C/D or are they also still 'incompetent people' not able to do anything 'progressive' or pro active??

Tac,

Are you going to take stupidity as your 'hallmark'---what does my post has to do with what the u s has done with F 16 A/B. Kid---I am talking about the procurement history of the PAF in general--- the last 30 plus years and all you can think of is the JF 17---.

That post was meant for Luftwaffe---he knows what I am talking about---it was not meant for you---because you donot have the ability of conscious and reasonable thinking---and neither you have put any effort into learning on your own.

Kid---as a pakistani---your knowledge is newspaper / magazine / media based----as is most other paks---I understand the tragedy that is forced upon you---lack of libraries---lack of books to learn from---I feel pity for your generation and the coming one as well and also the past by gone ones as well---.

It is a tragedy that your only stand is the media based information that you have learnt about---it is like going to a war with cracked engine blocks---gun barrels that are bent and shells that are empty of explosives---just like the biased and empty media bluster and hype.

 

[Mani2020]

Sorry mani for the ignorance, but wasn't j10 touted to be better then f16 block 52, if am not wrong Dodnt the paf official state the f16 will not be the most advance plane in its inventory.

How has this changed?.

mate till today nobody has solid grounds to either affirm or refute the claim....some argue on the basis of ego...some enthusiasm and some may be based upon certain but very limited insider information....as i already mentioned in another thread unless and until the system is not tested in war (ALLAH forbid) or in foreign exercises we have nothing much to back our claims ....with your own analysts there is always a degree of biased behavior ... US has been at best degrading russian tech but whenever in the hands of a hard metal the later has always proved its worth .... nobody can assure anyone on the question you asked but based upon the limited data may be yes in some aspects it looks better than block52 but as already said everyone have different opinions and a debate like tested non tested. battle proven etc etc

 

[TAC]

Tac,

Are you going to take stupidity as your 'hallmark'---what does my post has to do with what the u s has done with F 16 A/B. Kid---I am talking about the procurement history of the PAF in general--- the last 30 plus years and all you can think of is the JF 17---.

That post was meant for Luftwaffe---he knows what I am talking about---it was not meant for you---because you donot have the ability of conscious and reasonable thinking---and neither you have put any effort into learning on your own.

Kid---as a pakistani---your knowledge is newspaper / magazine / media based----as is most other paks---I understand the tragedy that is forced upon you---lack of libraries---lack of books to learn from---I feel pity for your generation and the coming one as well and also the past by gone ones as well---.

It is a tragedy that your only stand is the media based information that you have learnt about---it is like going to a war with cracked engine blocks---gun barrels that are bent and shells that are empty of explosives---just like the biased and empty media bluster and hype.

I couldn't possibly take stupidity as my Hallmark as it is already your undisputed Hallmark and you prove that very well with every post. You and Luftwaffe were critical of PAF for not aiming for JF-17 block 3 to start with and I gave F-16 as an example of block upgrades being a norm with all platforms. If thats too hard for you to follow let me know and I'll do a diagram for you. I can't see anything else in your post relevant to this thread or worth a reply - 'kid'.

 

[araz]

No disrespect to you - but you are quite right - I do not understand your point. The jf-17 was designed to be a cheap as possible and as cutting edge as possible. I do not see what has changed. First JF-17's came in 2007 as block 1 and we are yet to see the first block 2. And frankly what we are expecting in block 2 is not very fantastical in terms of upgrade. Just because it is being upgraded in blocks does not mean that someone has now suddenly decided it should match a J-10B or F-16C/D. The block upgrades are a normal feature of almost every fighter you can think of - J-10A to J-10B, F-16 block 15,30,40,52,60, Mirage 2000 to Mirage 2000-5/8 etc etc etc. This is a normal process as a platform matures and does not mean that all these countries were incompetant because they weren't smart enough to develop the later models first.

Also worth remembering that all this talk about JF-17 being upgraded soooooo much that there will no longer be any need for a J-10B type is nothing more than speculation by members on forums like this and should be seen in that context. The last official word from PAF was that there remained a requirement for a J-10 class fighter and that PAF's 'contract' for the J-10 with China was 'intact' and that the type would be aquired around the 2014-15 timeframe after required improvements to the type had been made.



I agree that Pakistan will have better JF-17's with each block - but this was expected from the outset. In my opinion these improvements are not designed to compensate for not buying the J-10.

The philosophy behind JFT was a late 3rd/ 4th Generation fighter which is BVR capable and can safely replace the 3rd generation fighters that PAF has economically. It actually turned out a lot better than they had expected and then PAF and CATIC started setting the banch marks a lot higher than previously. There would however always be limitations to what it can do and therefore there is a need for a second fighter of a different class. The problem/ good fortune is that JFT can incorporate all /most of the technologies which J10 has to offer. . One has to look at the armaments that the 2 platforms can carry to see the similarities. So all that the FC20 gives us is a heavier fighter with a better range and radar. the need for a better radar is not there if you are in an environment of AEWACs from both sides.Hence we are forced to ask what will FC20 give us that JFT cant.There is also the headache of procuring them either with Russian engines or with Chinese ones which have not matured
As against that Bl 52s give us a different set of capabilities which are slightly better than what we get with FC20 and we have the infrastructure and trained pilots in place to replace our obsolete force fairly rapidly. If we have a large enough force the threat of sanctions also can be circumvented for limited periods and there is enough commonality of parts and plenty of providers for it to be a safe bet provided the sanctions do not last for years.
So back to why we opted for FC20 in the first place. I think we need to turn the pages of history back to see how there were concerns about various facet of supplies and the relative procrastinations on the part of the US with regards to provisions of arms to PAF. The Salala incident again was a stark reminder to both parties that we cant afford to have a divorce without significant penalties on both sides. The Bl 52 is already in PAFs hands so the tech is not new and the entry of rafale means US needs to maintain the balance the forces again. Will 28 more planes do it? I think they will to the extent of giving the offending forces some food for thought rather than barging in at the slightest provocation. The PAF on the other hand always has the spectre of FC20 to hang in front of the US to keep them on the straight and narrow.
So the next question will we ever buy FC20 . I think there is more of a need of a twin engined long ranged fighter for prolonged patrolling and possibly also naval cover. Now with the advent of J31 we think we might have a suitable low vision/stealth fighter with maximum chinese tech which would have matured by then. The F16s would last us just fine till 2020 and onwards whereas the JFT would continue to matureand develop and incorporate newer techas time goes by.
All in all PAF has avenues which are mouth watering. It has probably never had it so good. We have a fantastic little gem with decent 4th generation qualities and armaments which means all the force would now be BVR capable without breaking the bank, an established fourth generation veteran with the reputation of being one of the best in its class and one which will give any other platform a run for its money and prospects of having a next generation fighter from outr neighbours which will come with no strings attached. We dont have money now but the US aid (which is both a curse and a blessing) may end up making procurement of F16s a lot more economical than thought previously.
Araz

 

[AstroTrain]

Some of the posts in this thread make implications that somehow the much larger J-10 has realized its design limit and it is inferior to the f16? Did I get that right?

How is the J10 which has bigger engine, greater fuel load and range, larger radar etc., at its design ceiling while the smaller jf17 which is a mig 21 replacement point defense fighter has all this room for block, 2, 3, 4,xxxx? Pure nonsense.

The j10b is a natural evolution of the J10 fighter just like how many block versions the USA initiated with their f16 program and is meant for local consumption. calling the j10b a dead end fighter compared to the limitless potential of a export dud like the jf17 is absurd. All those pics you see of the j10b starting series production is for the Plaaf. China does not need to sell this fighter, all demand and $$ is from domestic consumption. We certainly don't need $$s from Pakistan to save our aerospace industry especially when Pakistan requires soft loans that will take decades to be paid back.

The jf17 is an export dud. How many years has this thing been sent to one air show to another with 0 exports contracts. China has substantial political relations with many African countries such as Sudan, Zimbabwe but to date none of them have shown any interest. Sudan is probably one client state ideal for this light fighter and if China put alittle pressure and persuasion but nothing from them, 0. They rather fly migs and Q5 fantans to kill South Sudanese than cheap JF17s. What does that say?

China would be one of the dumbest countries on the planet to develop further blocks of this dud to incorporate Aesa radar and stealth features. If this fighter had some export success maybe 200 plus export orders, that can possibly justify the huge cost to miniturize an Aesa for the tiny jf17 nose and some airframe reshaping but as it stands there are absolutely no justifications to absorb the huge costs of producing another j10b platform. Any further blocks of this fighter will only incorporate minor changes. Again this thing is a mig 21 replacement cheopo why and who in the world will develop this fighter into a f16, J10 medium fighter class?

My 2 cents, Pakistan can't afford the J10b in the numbers they hoped so just use your limited budget to buy a smaller number of f16s. Even if they still want j10b they will be at the end of the line since all production will meet the overwhelming demand from local consumption plus the bottleneck of producing enough ws10as to meet this fighter and all the flanker derivatives.

Aside, the recent comments on the J10B falls in line with the absurdity of Pakistan acquiring Qing class subs.

This forum is pure amateur hour. When the supposed Qing sub first dropped into the water to now the overwhelming agreement on all Chinese forums is the sub is a one off ballistic weapons tester hence the long extended sail. Notice how I said sub not class, only one of this has been built in the past couple of years. Somehow the loony bins on the forum purported that Pakistan would be the first country to receive exports of this sub because the poor PLAN cannot afford to purchase the best china produces, only Pakistan gets first choice. Lol
And you guys stickied this nonsense. Amateur hour. I don’t know why Paks are acting like Indians.

 

[giant panda]

imo,first J-10 do not export now,china is faced with the burning threat of war and meet its own needs first.

second paf need a multi-purpose fighter more for the next 20 years,but J-10B is still a air supremacy fighter and first designs were for PLAAF. i think paf will not be satisfied J-10B till a J10C multi-purpose version has been appeared ,
J10C multi-purpose version(2 seater,CFT,add 2 new weapon hardpoints , New 140kn WS10G Engine,8 ton weapon load)

*

*
AMF Gyrfalcon 310 has launched now,or paf want to skip J-10 series and get AMF Gyrfalcon 310. It is reported on reliable big shrimps that AMF Gyrfalcon 310 has a great 10 ton weapon load and a combat radius of 1250 km on internal fuel. so AMF Gyrfalcon 310 is a excellent 5 gen stealthy multi-purpose fighter.AMF Gyrfalcon 310 and JF-17 NG series can have the same WS-13A engine(10000kgf) ,That'll reduce maintenance costs and very fit for the paf's next 20 years
AMF Gyrfalcon 310 and JF-17

 

[Pfpilot]

Some of the posts in this thread make implications that somehow the much larger J-10 has realized its design limit and it is inferior to the f16? Did I get that right?

How is the J10 which has bigger engine, greater fuel load and range, larger radar etc., at its design ceiling while the smaller jf17 which is a mig 21 replacement point defense fighter has all this room for block, 2, 3, 4,xxxx? Pure nonsense.

The j10b is a natural evolution of the J10 fighter just like how many block versions the USA initiated with their f16 program and is meant for local consumption. calling the j10b a dead end fighter compared to the limitless potential of a export dud like the jf17 is absurd. All those pics you see of the j10b starting series production is for the Plaaf. China does not need to sell this fighter, all demand and $$ is from domestic consumption. We certainly don't need $$s from Pakistan to save our aerospace industry especially when Pakistan requires soft loans that will take decades to be paid back.

The jf17 is an export dud. How many years has this thing been sent to one air show to another with 0 exports contracts. China has substantial political relations with many African countries such as Sudan, Zimbabwe but to date none of them have shown any interest. Sudan is probably one client state ideal for this light fighter and if China put alittle pressure and persuasion but nothing from them, 0. They rather fly migs and Q5 fantans to kill South Sudanese than cheap JF17s. What does that say?

China would be one of the dumbest countries on the planet to develop further blocks of this dud to incorporate Aesa radar and stealth features. If this fighter had some export success maybe 200 plus export orders, that can possibly justify the huge cost to miniturize an Aesa for the tiny jf17 nose and some airframe reshaping but as it stands there are absolutely no justifications to absorb the huge costs of producing another j10b platform. Any further blocks of this fighter will only incorporate minor changes. Again this thing is a mig 21 replacement cheopo why and who in the world will develop this fighter into a f16, J10 medium fighter class?

My 2 cents, Pakistan can't afford the J10b in the numbers they hoped so just use your limited budget to buy a smaller number of f16s. Even if they still want j10b they will be at the end of the line since all production will meet the overwhelming demand from local consumption plus the bottleneck of producing enough ws10as to meet this fighter and all the flanker derivatives.

Aside, the recent comments on the J10B falls in line with the absurdity of Pakistan acquiring Qing class subs.

This forum is pure amateur hour. When the supposed Qing sub first dropped into the water to now the overwhelming agreement on all Chinese forums is the sub is a one off ballistic weapons tester hence the long extended sail. Notice how I said sub not class, only one of this has been built in the past couple of years. Somehow the loony bins on the forum purported that Pakistan would be the first country to receive exports of this sub because the poor PLAN cannot afford to purchase the best china produces, only Pakistan gets first choice. Lol
And you guys stickied this nonsense. Amateur hour. I don’t know why Paks are acting like Indians.

Thank you for enlightening us brainless Pakistanis. Us, lesser people don't even have the comprehension ability to understand the horse manure that is your post. You may have convinced yourself that the j-10 is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but last I checked, it has had an equally bad export run. The reason has more to do with geopolitics than anything. Fighters are the ultimate currency of diplomacy. The Americans, much like the Soviets did, sell fighter planes in what amounts to a bribe. A "reward" for weaker nations for having aided the Americans in their grand goals, or to dangle in front of less co-operative nations. The Chinese don't have that clout, nor do they have the reputation of the Russians or French. How any country, other than those who already fall under the Chinese axis, will ever go for Chinese aircraft is beyond my tiny Pakistani brain's understanding.

Also, each nation has different needs. Why would Pakistan, Bangladesh or some obscure African nation want to procure a j-10 over the jf-17, when its main advantage, of range, is irrelevant to nations so small? Just because something is perfect for China, does not make it so for the rest of the world. If the jf-17 can be bought for far less, provide the capabilities required and withstand the threat perception of said nation, then it would be far more beneficial an investment. Equally importantly, since the Chinese industry does not have the global reputation for excellence in military aviation, though I believe it does deserve it, only those nations with few options and even fewer dollars will be willing to deal with them. Under those circumstances you are unlikely to see those economically weak and geographically small nations splurge on the j-10, which provides many capabilities that are redundant, as compared to the smaller jf-17.

Finally, while you have convinced yourself otherwise, China does want to export its military hardware, for the same reason they export products meant for civilians. Even the richest nation on earth cannot locally fund every development and hope to stay afloat without any foreign consumption. Also, As I mentioned earlier, the more China embroils itself in global politics, the more allies and satellite states it will require to project its power. Fighters, much like the f-16s for America and the Mig-21s for Soviets, will be a crucial part of that expansion. Nothing excites a government, especially a dictator, more than things that fly and blow things up. There are many more Irans and Egypts and North Koreas in this world, ripe for the Chinese industry. Unfortunately, the same social and economic issues that lead them to China as a last resort, will prevent them from buying the more expensive j-10.

I know, us amateurs are beneath you, but I would still argue that the f-16 is far superior to the j-10. The Americans are significantly more advanced in the field of electronics and while the Chinese may get there, they are not at that peak yet. The Americans have a significantly larger knowledge base in regards to Eastern Bloc aircraft, then the Chinese do in regards to the West. They will stay ahead of Chinese developments for the time being, at least. Under those circumstances, the f-16 is a far better investment.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Now that I think of it, J10B is not really necessary if we are able to get more F-16 cheaply. If we can get a good deal from the Americans, then there is hardly any need for J-10. For the next 3-4 years I do not see our economic woes allowing us much room. Better stick with cheaper JF-17s. J10 has bigger radar and higher Max weapons load as distinct advantages, but that is about it. We can do without it for now.

Thing to go for is J-31 especially if there is going to be engine commonality with JF-17. Let us first fix our economy and then see what we can get.

P.S. People keep saying that J-10 has much better range compared to JF-17. But Huitong's site contradicts that at least as far as J-10A is concerned?

 

[SQ8]

Some of the posts in this thread make implications that somehow the much larger J-10 has realized its design limit and it is inferior to the f16? Did I get that right?

How is the J10 which has bigger engine, greater fuel load and range, larger radar etc., at its design ceiling while the smaller jf17 which is a mig 21 replacement point defense fighter has all this room for block, 2, 3, 4,xxxx? Pure nonsense.

The j10b is a natural evolution of the J10 fighter just like how many block versions the USA initiated with their f16 program and is meant for local consumption. calling the j10b a dead end fighter compared to the limitless potential of a export dud like the jf17 is absurd. All those pics you see of the j10b starting series production is for the Plaaf. China does not need to sell this fighter, all demand and $$ is from domestic consumption. We certainly don't need $$s from Pakistan to save our aerospace industry especially when Pakistan requires soft loans that will take decades to be paid back.

The jf17 is an export dud. How many years has this thing been sent to one air show to another with 0 exports contracts. China has substantial political relations with many African countries such as Sudan, Zimbabwe but to date none of them have shown any interest. Sudan is probably one client state ideal for this light fighter and if China put alittle pressure and persuasion but nothing from them, 0. They rather fly migs and Q5 fantans to kill South Sudanese than cheap JF17s. What does that say?

China would be one of the dumbest countries on the planet to develop further blocks of this dud to incorporate Aesa radar and stealth features. If this fighter had some export success maybe 200 plus export orders, that can possibly justify the huge cost to miniturize an Aesa for the tiny jf17 nose and some airframe reshaping but as it stands there are absolutely no justifications to absorb the huge costs of producing another j10b platform. Any further blocks of this fighter will only incorporate minor changes. Again this thing is a mig 21 replacement cheopo why and who in the world will develop this fighter into a f16, J10 medium fighter class?

My 2 cents, Pakistan can't afford the J10b in the numbers they hoped so just use your limited budget to buy a smaller number of f16s. Even if they still want j10b they will be at the end of the line since all production will meet the overwhelming demand from local consumption plus the bottleneck of producing enough ws10as to meet this fighter and all the flanker derivatives.

Aside, the recent comments on the J10B falls in line with the absurdity of Pakistan acquiring Qing class subs.

This forum is pure amateur hour. When the supposed Qing sub first dropped into the water to now the overwhelming agreement on all Chinese forums is the sub is a one off ballistic weapons tester hence the long extended sail. Notice how I said sub not class, only one of this has been built in the past couple of years. Somehow the loony bins on the forum purported that Pakistan would be the first country to receive exports of this sub because the poor PLAN cannot afford to purchase the best china produces, only Pakistan gets first choice. Lol
And you guys stickied this nonsense. Amateur hour. I don’t know why Paks are acting like Indians.

While some points may be valid, what you seem to ignore is that the purchase of the J-10B is not conjecture or assumption but published reports through interviews given throughout the past five years.
If the J-10 did have that much love by the PAF then it..and not the J-11 would be going up in numbers. But that is clearly not the case. The aircraft does have potential put at this point has met its cap in the PLAAF as well.
Now for the JF-17, the export issue is not from Pakistan or China.. its from the PAF refusing to sign export orders unless its own are met.. which means customers have been turned away twice due to the limited production lines.

CATIC has unequivocally stated, that it can deliver a J-10B derivative to Pakistan in the next year provided a contract is signed.. and that is where your contention of soft loans comes in. Pakistan does not want to take anymore loans(which are available in the next 24 hours if we wish).

This is not from a fanboy but someone who has worked in the industry and has contacts.. someone whose hours of work has gone into trying to make some cheap Chinese hardware work as reliable as our standards demand it.
Somebody who was sick and tired of having to go through prototypes that wont even start up even after calling up Mr Ling and Hu on email to explain that his bloody chipsets keep frying themselves out... so they can suck it up and we would rather use the Turkish or US systems since at least they turn on as predicted and not keep blowing so-called high quality soldering and IC's now and then.
Which is why throughout the workplace Chinese Electronic equipment is considered Junk because you have to call them up every other month to make sure they meet quality standards.

It would probably shock people the number of F-6 and F-7 crashes not revealed by the PAF due to those darn things falling out of the sky every now and then in the early 90's.

SO thank you very much for your friendship.. but remain at that level... because your government, Military Industry owe their enlightenment on the J-10 to us.. since we consider you greater friends than the US to let you peek into their stuff illegally so you can reverse engineer it to make up for your general obsolescence in manufacturing concepts.
Its Pakistan you have to thank for actually teaching your mass producing arses a thing or two about quality..

As for the Qing, the issue was always about money and production capacity.. your government is a lot more accepting of us than you think.

Get down from the pedestal you have set for yourself, because in your effort to admonish Indians.. you are behaving like their trolls.

 

[SBD-3]

Some of the posts in this thread make implications that somehow the much larger J-10 has realized its design limit and it is inferior to the f16? Did I get that right?

How is the J10 which has bigger engine, greater fuel load and range, larger radar etc., at its design ceiling while the smaller jf17 which is a mig 21 replacement point defense fighter has all this room for block, 2, 3, 4,xxxx? Pure nonsense.

The j10b is a natural evolution of the J10 fighter just like how many block versions the USA initiated with their f16 program and is meant for local consumption. calling the j10b a dead end fighter compared to the limitless potential of a export dud like the jf17 is absurd. All those pics you see of the j10b starting series production is for the Plaaf. China does not need to sell this fighter, all demand and $$ is from domestic consumption. We certainly don't need $$s from Pakistan to save our aerospace industry especially when Pakistan requires soft loans that will take decades to be paid back.

The jf17 is an export dud. How many years has this thing been sent to one air show to another with 0 exports contracts. China has substantial political relations with many African countries such as Sudan, Zimbabwe but to date none of them have shown any interest. Sudan is probably one client state ideal for this light fighter and if China put alittle pressure and persuasion but nothing from them, 0. They rather fly migs and Q5 fantans to kill South Sudanese than cheap JF17s. What does that say?

China would be one of the dumbest countries on the planet to develop further blocks of this dud to incorporate Aesa radar and stealth features. If this fighter had some export success maybe 200 plus export orders, that can possibly justify the huge cost to miniturize an Aesa for the tiny jf17 nose and some airframe reshaping but as it stands there are absolutely no justifications to absorb the huge costs of producing another j10b platform. Any further blocks of this fighter will only incorporate minor changes. Again this thing is a mig 21 replacement cheopo why and who in the world will develop this fighter into a f16, J10 medium fighter class?

My 2 cents, Pakistan can't afford the J10b in the numbers they hoped so just use your limited budget to buy a smaller number of f16s. Even if they still want j10b they will be at the end of the line since all production will meet the overwhelming demand from local consumption plus the bottleneck of producing enough ws10as to meet this fighter and all the flanker derivatives.

Aside, the recent comments on the J10B falls in line with the absurdity of Pakistan acquiring Qing class subs.

This forum is pure amateur hour. When the supposed Qing sub first dropped into the water to now the overwhelming agreement on all Chinese forums is the sub is a one off ballistic weapons tester hence the long extended sail. Notice how I said sub not class, only one of this has been built in the past couple of years. Somehow the loony bins on the forum purported that Pakistan would be the first country to receive exports of this sub because the poor PLAN cannot afford to purchase the best china produces, only Pakistan gets first choice. Lol
And you guys stickied this nonsense. Amateur hour. I don’t know why Paks are acting like Indians.

Instead of making absured replies to absured posts, try to think over the points. There are thousands of members from all age groups, nationalities and maturities. If you throw (s)hit at somebody who has thrown (s)hit at you, you ll both be left (s)hity in the end. And not the least, such replies would also leave you not better than a troll too.
The point mostly debated here was that
1-PAF is more than happy with JFT and is ever investing in expanding it capabilities. Do you think PLAAF would be footing the bill for developments of JFT? certainly not. Though the bird was initially intended to cater the needs of both forces, but it never was funded or connected to PLAAF directly. Since PLAAF's requirements would certainly be different from PAF, thats why we saw two different tracks of development i.e. AVIC carrying on her private development under FC-1 program while PAF maintaining her program under JFT. What do you think PT-06 has been doing in CAC while PAF had been running her parallel testing program through TEL at Kamra? Do you believe that the manufacturer of CM-400AKG developed a missile and then marketed it to PAF? J-10 is indeed a bigger plane, with bigger radar and bigger range but had PAF been interested in J-10A blocks and JFT not filling the shoes, we would have seen a deal for J-10s long ago. Thats why i always emphesize on capabilities not the characteristics. a better fuel capacity is useless without the capability that intends to exploit large fuel capacity etc.
2- I have been arguing it that for PAF JFT is the "lo" and thats that (lo in characteristics doesn't necessarily means lo in capabilities). Any contender for hi would have to at least compete and outsmart PAF's Block 52s and MLUs, which still remain a lucrative option for PAF, though risky.
3-J-10 has atleast 6 Blocks (J10A/S 1,2,3 and J-10A/S 4,5,6) and J-10A is itself an improvement over J-10. So uptil J-10B, J-10 has already come a long way. JFT on the other hand, has certainly not evolved like J-10 yet. However, while there remains a significant room for improvement I dont see a drastic evolution like a stealthy design which seems absurd.
4- J-10B is yet to cover some way as we havent seen any proof of active weapons testing as yet (except a picture with J-10B carrying bombs). And as it is inducted in PLAAF after the start of serial production, PAF would not like to place bet on a new horse and would rather like to wait and watch than procure the platform fresh out of factory.

 

[SBD-3]

While some points may be valid, what you seem to ignore is that the purchase of the J-10B is not conjecture or assumption but published reports through interviews given throughout the past five years.
If the J-10 did have that much love by the PAF then it..and not the J-11 would be going up in numbers. But that is clearly not the case. The aircraft does have potential put at this point has met its cap in the PLAAF as well.
Now for the JF-17, the export issue is not from Pakistan or China.. its from the PAF refusing to sign export orders unless its own are met.. which means customers have been turned away twice due to the limited production lines.

CATIC has unequivocally stated, that it can deliver a J-10B derivative to Pakistan in the next year provided a contract is signed.. and that is where your contention of soft loans comes in. Pakistan does not want to take anymore loans(which are available in the next 24 hours if we wish).

This is not from a fanboy but someone who has worked in the industry and has contacts.. someone whose hours of work has gone into trying to make some cheap Chinese hardware work as reliable as our standards demand it.
Somebody who was sick and tired of having to go through prototypes that wont even start up even after calling up Mr Ling and Hu on email to explain that his bloody chipsets keep frying themselves out... so they can suck it up and we would rather use the Turkish or US systems since at least they turn on as predicted and not keep blowing so-called high quality soldering and IC's now and then.
Which is why throughout the workplace Chinese Electronic equipment is considered Junk because you have to call them up every other month to make sure they meet quality standards.

It would probably shock people the number of F-6 and F-7 crashes not revealed by the PAF due to those darn things falling out of the sky every now and then in the early 90's.

SO thank you very much for your friendship.. but remain at that level... because your government, Military Industry owe their enlightenment on the J-10 to us.. since we consider you greater friends than the US to let you peek into their stuff illegally so you can reverse engineer it to make up for your general obsolescence in manufacturing concepts.
Its Pakistan you have to thank for actually teaching your mass producing arses a thing or two about quality..

As for the Qing, the issue was always about money and production capacity.. your government is a lot more accepting of us than you think.

Get down from the pedestal you have set for yourself, because in your effort to admonish Indians.. you are behaving like their trolls.

You have been overly harsh about the issue. What we must accept that it was CAC who trained KAMRA over production. While you may differ from someone, but try not to start a war of words. I mean you can always explain in neutral tone but the message seems more like as if you took it personal (Pardon me for being direct though)

 

[SQ8]

You have been overly harsh about the issue. What we must accept that it was CAC who trained KAMRA over production. While you may differ from someone, but try not to start a war of words. I mean you can always explain in neutral tone but the message seems more like as if you took it personal (Pardon me for being direct though)

I must agree that I did, because while I have the utmost respect for the Chinese and their invaluable assistance.. I detest the idea to think that they taught us everything.. Yes they did at times literally help us to get walking.. but its not like we did not being anything tangible into the equation.
The J-10 owes a lot to us letting the Chinese have their way with the F-16.. shipping off bits and pieces to them.
We chose to share information on systems, we chose to share knowledge on warfare tactics..
The Chinese were still stuck in straight and level GCI till they gleaned fighting tactics from CCS graduates.
Its not a one way relationship... otherwise.. truly.. what has Pakistan to offer to the Chinese today??

That is the view propagated by our eastern neighbors.. .and one that this poster seems to have picked up

 

[TAC]

Please take time to read my last 3-4 posts you are going in the opposite direction to whatever I am saying.

We are speaking of J-10s and all the costs and Years to come not pop corn machine that is replaced every now and then BLK III more or less can say goodbye to J-10B. by 2020+ would be damn time for Twin Engine your neighbor is growing unlike PAF, you need heavy capabilities if not quantity; JFT, F-16 and in Future J-31 or any other comparable can help you provided WILL & CASH.

TAC, what would be the price tag when BLK III is under construction or available would it be cheap....No eventually it might be as much as $30M.

Jf-17 'BLK III more or less can say goodbye to J-10B' -- realy? So you know what JF-17 BLK III is going to include and an official source to back that up?
You want me to tell you what a BLK III JF-17 will cost when nobody even knows what a JF-17 BLK III will include --- other than idle speculation on forums like this ofcoarse. I understand and accept speculation on threads like this but to come up with speculative cost of a speculative specification of a block III is a step too far for me - sorry.
In my opinion - and thats all it is - J-10B is the best choice for PAF. I sincerely hope they don't go for more newbuild F-16's.