Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[Zarbe Momin]

Pakistan will be ready to buy if price is reasonable whether russia will be agree to sell this to us.

 

[IceCold]

The color scheme is really awesome.

 

[IceCold]

Although it could happen to anyone and any plane, it is a stark reminder that Russian Engines are not as reliable as western ones. PAF has had reservations about this annd this news has justified its stand.
Araz

The good news is that the plane can be glided over to land safely, not many jets can do that after an engine failure and specially single engine jet.

Araz sb is it safe to assume that just because the Chinese version of the engine which too itself is based on the russian technology, its reliability is questionable and if yes can PAF equip the J-10 with a western power plant? IMO i don't think any western nation would allow its engine to be fitted on a chinese platform because of the fear of a technology breach.

 

[mean_bird]

The good news is that the plane can be glided over to land safely, not many jets can do that after an engine failure and specially single engine jet.

Araz sb is it safe to assume that just because the Chinese version of the engine which too itself is based on the russian technology, its reliability is questionable and if yes can PAF equip the J-10 with a western power plant? IMO i don't think any western nation would allow its engine to be fitted on a chinese platform because of the fear of a technology breach.

Lets see if an official report comes out.. This is the first such accident.


nice work by the pilot and impressive design of the plane, kinda reminds me of the Israeli F-15 that flew on one wing.

 

[araz]

The good news is that the plane can be glided over to land safely, not many jets can do that after an engine failure and specially single engine jet.

Araz sb is it safe to assume that just because the Chinese version of the engine which too itself is based on the russian technology, its reliability is questionable and if yes can PAF equip the J-10 with a western power plant? IMO i don't think any western nation would allow its engine to be fitted on a chinese platform because of the fear of a technology breach.

Ice cold.
I gather there are 2 engines being tried out in China. WS10 which we have heard about and WS15(ihope i am correct with the nomenclature). PAF likes the second one and sees the potetntial in it.Apparently quite a few changes have been made in it and qulalitatively it is a better engine.
There are a few things to note. This is the first accident for J10 and we need to wait for a report to see whether the engine was really to be blamed for it. Secondly we dont really know what the record of the chinese engine is on the J10. As far as i know the only planes using WS10 atthe moment are J11s(combination of WS10 and AL31FN).However so far the record for chinese products has not been a bad one.
Secondly PAF will have very little choice but to go Chinese as there are problems associated with European(Price ) and Us (sanctions/lack of trust)alternates.
You are right as to the lack of alternatives with regards to engine for FC20. the only alternative seems to be the F16 Bl 52 engine with a thrust of 28000lbs, which may be the right size, but carries with it huge problems even if we could acquire it. Or we could go down the Mirage 2K5/9 route till problems get sorted out. I hope this answers your querry.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[Munir]

Ice cold.
I gather there are 2 engines being tried out in China. WS10 which we have heard about and WS15(ihope i am correct with the nomenclature). PAF likes the second one and sees the potetntial in it.Apparently quite a few changes have been made in it and qulalitatively it is a better engine.
There are a few things to note. This is the first accident for J10 and we need to wait for a report to see whether the engine was really to be blamed for it. Secondly we dont really know what the record of the chinese engine is on the J10. As far as i know the only planes using WS10 atthe moment are J11s(combination of WS10 and AL31FN).However so far the record for chinese products has not been a bad one.
Secondly PAF will have very little choice but to go Chinese as there are problems associated with European(Price ) and Us (sanctions/lack of trust)alternates.
You are right as to the lack of alternatives with regards to engine for FC20. the only alternative seems to be the F16 Bl 52 engine with a thrust of 28000lbs, which may be the right size, but carries with it huge problems even if we could acquire it. Or we could go down the Mirage 2K5/9 route till problems get sorted out. I hope this answers your querry.
WaSalam
Araz

Excellent reply Araz. Adding to that.... You have always a relationship between price - maintenance costs - power... Russian engines hare very rugged and simple to maintain. Yet you need to replace them more often. If you have western engines you need to invest a lot in safety, maintenance and you will get a better performance. But the cost will be a lot higher. Just see it like this. When the first time F16 landed in Poland the Americans had every runway and taxi way vacuum cleaned. Even when landed the planes had always stay behind a truck that vacumed the road... Compare that with Mig29... That plane can fly from a dirty strip or even soft roads. Another example is A10 and SU25. The A10 will have every problem you can imagine if you have dirty fuel. Thje SU25 will fly on diesel or even Vodka... You will have less power but the engine is that good it can handle almost any fuel...

If you are US then you need high tech airfields and well trained maintenance engineers. In Russia you need just a strip. Even farmers can learn the maintenance if needed...

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

All russian war birds are designed to land or the worst type of air strip. They also design their millitary equipment to be field overhauled. That is why the landing gears of russian planes are extremely heavy duty.

 

[mhussain]

The problem with a WS-15 would be:

1. That it is a whole new generation and far more ambitious than the WS-10, surely would either have teething problems in service or would need time to work out all kinks
2. The need for it to be fitted into the J-10 would take time and $
3. Would China be willing to sell their possibly most important technology project
4. Can Pakistan wait for such an engine, a few months ago the PAF needed something faster
5. Would need to upgrade maintenance capabilities significantly as this is a class of engine that is far more sophisticated than anything Pakistan has seen (again, time and loads of $$$)

 

[araz]

Brother.
1.As of now we are talking about 5-6 yr before delivery. the engine already exists and has been shown to PAF, which likes it.
2.Size is similar with more thrust, so should not be a problem. again we have time, the new plane is not due to fly /be ready till 2011-12so there are 3 yrs to go still.
3. If it was shown to PAF it must have been shown with a view to sell it. It is logical to assume it.
4.FFC20s are not due in till 2014-15.
5.we would need to upgrade capabilities and infrastructure for it in any case so why should it matter what engine is being used?

 

[Munir]

The problem with a WS-15 would be:

1. That it is a whole new generation and far more ambitious than the WS-10, surely would either have teething problems in service or would need time to work out all kinks
2. The need for it to be fitted into the J-10 would take time and $
3. Would China be willing to sell their possibly most important technology project
4. Can Pakistan wait for such an engine, a few months ago the PAF needed something faster
5. Would need to upgrade maintenance capabilities significantly as this is a class of engine that is far more sophisticated than anything Pakistan has seen (again, time and loads of $$$)

You might say the same when talking about F22 or JSF... This is the way aviation technology works. Something is invented. It takes 3-5 years to introduce. You need another decade to get it fully tested cause you never know how it will react under al cicumstances. We have funny stories about F22 computers not able to handle time-zone. We heard about B2 not able to handle normal hangars so sepcial hangars and often repainting needed. We heard so many things so we know there is a reserve. But I do think that we are talking about less dangerous developments when it comes to Chinese way of inventing. They do it a little by little so this engine or the technoligies are much more reliable then totally new. About your points. If PAkistani can handle things like Ra'ad and Babur then they can handle a lot more things then we know. It is not a small country nor is it that much handicapped. We have enough potential inside and outside the nation. We might not have it like China but compared let us say India we do a lot better.

 

[pshamim]

I am blessed with some great friends in China who share my passion with Air Force. They keep sending me interesting and intriguiging photographs and keep me abreast with latest news.

My friend Dongqui has sent me the following photos which I like to share. Shows the ingenuity and resoursefulness of our Chinese brothers. Please see some pictures of a 2 seater F-10 and its air frame assembly on the spot.
Regards,
Pshamim

1.Just arrived in the morning, two cranes have been in place and everybody at busy.
2. Small size of the cable car to the left hung up.
3. Left on the left.
4. Large size crane hoist and then the right-wing to the right.
5. Vertical lift down later, the two put airframe lifting cranes, trailers up to next to go.

 

[pshamim]

6. Everyone busy in the left landing gear installed under the fuselage
7. Busy morning.
8. Also install the main landing gear, it is not easy loading.
9. Installed the main landing gear well, and is still vacant Medium. Load-bearing can be seen landing at the former, two main round was a certain angle inward
10. Efforts to make you the instrument panel.

 

[pshamim]

11. Before the landing gear also ready.
12. S-type bubble-type canopy bubble Ah really.
13Landing gear is installed well, and put on the ground

 

[MZUBAIR]

Pakistan is not getting 36 J-10/FC-20 this year.

The order is altered.

Now Pakistan is getting almost 50 J-10/FC-20 "high-tech" variant, to be delivered to the PAF in 2014-15, some speculate that this could be a version of the upgraded J-10B model.

On March 7th 2009, at agreement signing ceremony of JF-17 Thunder aircraft, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed said the agreement between Pakistan and China for the delivery of High-Tech aircraft J-10 was intact and these aircraft after improving them further would be delivered to PAF in 2014-15. He said these aircraft are being modernized in accordance with the PAF’s requirements and delivered under the title of FC-20.

Currently PAF is focusing to develop Full-fledged production of JF-17 in Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra.

Planned Upgrade of JF-17 till 2015.

The first 50 JF-17s entering Pakistan Air Force service will most likely incorporate only Chinese avionics and other systems.
Extendable in-flight refueling probes will be added soon.
Minor airframe modifications to add two more external hardpoints have also been mentioned by some sources.

Greater use of composite materials in the airframe to decrease weight.
Chinese Infra-Red Search and Track (IRST) system, possibly the Type Hongguang-I Electro-optical radar originally developed for the Chengdu J-10 fighter by Sichuan Changhong Electric Appliance Corporation. JF-17 is already compatible with this system but currently it must be carried externally in a pod mounted on one of the hardpoints.
New engine; most likely the Chinese WS-13 TianShan, although the PAF is considering fitting European powerplants such as the French Snecma M88 to its aircraft.

Minor airframe modifications to reduce the aircraft's radar cross-section by adding stealthy features.

Beyond the initial 50 PAF JF-17s, the remaining production aircraft may also be equipped with European avionics, radars and weaponry. Pakistan had begun negotiations with British and Italian defence firms over potential avionics and radars for JF-17 during initial development. Some of the radar options for JF-17 are the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7and the French Thomson-CSF RC400 (a variant of the RDY-2), along with the MBDA MICA IR/RF short/medium range air-to-air missiles.


This would make the fighter more attractive.

 

[SEAL]

I heard that advanced version of J-10 is based on MIG 1.41/1.42 design, stealthy features,and ofcourse tvc and pesa airborne radar. so we should wait for better yield..