Changing times: Ijtihad and other questions Muslims must revisit

[Judge]

1. You want me to be blunt, I cannot be. Take prayers for an example. I do not understand why it is compulsory for Muslims to pray 5 times a day, every day while the Christians and Jews have to go to Church only once or twice every week. But although it may not make sense to me, does it mean there is no sense to it? All it means is that my level of understanding or intelligence is not there 'yet'.

2. Correct. Because divine law cannot be contradictory to human rights. It is meant to protect them.

The difference between the example you gave and the example I gave is that- while in doing the example you gave, you hurt no one else, you affect no one else. You do these acts for your own spiritual satisfaction.

Whereas, in doing the example I gave - ie killing someone because he/she wants to leave Islam, your actions and faith is affecting someone else - another human being, in the worst possible manner.

Therefore it only takes a little amount of common sense to know when your actions are contravening human rights and when your actions are crossing that and hurting them.

While in praying - whether or not it benefits you - the loss to other humans is not established.
When you start killing those who wish to leave Islam - you are inflicting barbarity to other humans.

 

[Aamna Ali]

because Pakistan IS an Islamic state, bring a Muslim to the post of PM in Israel, or a Muslim to the post of President in USA, or a Muslim in India? all countries are based on some religion, so Pakistan is and will remain the Islamic Republic Of Pakistan

India has had 4 Muslim Presidents since 1952.. You are wrong if you say all countries are based on some religion.. India is a truly Secular country at all government and state levels where merit is given preference over ones personal religious beliefs.
Muslims in India are much better off than in Islamic republics, where everyone has their own interpretation of Islam and are ready to call the other a Kufr and kill in the name of Islam.

 

[syedali73]

@Mav3rick

1. Death for leaving Islam was perhaps relevant in the earlier times when there were not many Muslims but it appears not to be mandatory since there is no mention of this kind of punishment in Quran.

2. Jew and Christians (basically Jews, still follow the old testament) also suppose to pray several times a day, fast, make sacrifices (look Old testament and Talmud for instance) etc., but they (except their clergymen) are not following those commandments, just like many Muslims do not say their prayers 5 times every day. Average Christian or Jew not following their religion does not change what is in their books.

 

[syedali73]

India has had 4 Muslim Presidents since 1952.. You are wrong if you say all countries are based on some religion.. India is a truly Secular country at all government and state levels where merit is given preference over ones personal religious beliefs.
Muslims in India are much better off than in Islamic republics, where everyone has their own interpretation of Islam and are ready to call the other a Kufr and kill in the name of Islam.

There is no merit in appointing a Muslim as the president of India for this is practically a ceremonial post without political consequences of any sort.

 

[Aamna Ali]

There is no merit in appointing a Muslim as the president of India for this is practically a ceremonial post without any political consequences of any sort.

The point is when they were appointed, their religion was of no importance..They just happened to be experienced and ideal for the post.
There is no law prohibiting a Muslim from contesting and competing for any role in the Government. There are countless Muslims in India's huge Bureaucratic system who have cracked prestigious exams and hold posts in India's Administrative services,Police services,revenue services et al.. It is all based on merit..There are reservations for the minorities in every Government department too (Even though i dont support it).

 

[SarthakGanguly]

She led prayers where women and men stood shoulder to shoulder and prayed

This is very nice.

We have seen how much respect Indians on PDF show Islam and their lack of understanding even on the basic concept of religion

True. Indians mostly do not care much about religion. Any religion. We are touchy about culture, but religion is not a priority.

wait treachery

treachery is a very good deed

What's the proof?

converts the Muslim state into a secular state according to his own wishes, then what?

How do you convert a full state?

 

[SarthakGanguly]

There is no merit in appointing a Muslim as the president of India for this is practically a ceremonial post without political consequences of any sort.

Depends on the merit of the person. We don't make puppets here. If someone is capable they can head Defense research or even military intelligence. The armed forces have had its share of stalwarts from all backgrounds. Manekshaw for instance was Parsi while General Jacobs (Eastern Command, 1971) was Jewish. There are too many example to give.

 

[Zarvan]

1. Your agreement is of importance regardless of what Ulema or others decide. My question is straight forward to you.
Even if Islam calls for death on those who leave Islam, do you as a modern- educated- human being agree that any who leave Islam should be killed. Do you as modern educated human being agree that relgion or faith is intensely personal and you have NO rights to enforce it on anyone.

2. Essentially you are willing to agree to anything which is 'divine law' even if it is contradictory to human rights.

Islam is not a personal thing Islam is way off life it has laws for everything from economy to trade and buisness to crime and politics and government and social life Islam never was just a personal matter

 

[jamahir]

India has had 4 Muslim Presidents since 1952.. You are wrong if you say all countries are based on some religion.. India is a truly Secular country at all government and state levels where merit is given preference over ones personal religious beliefs.
Muslims in India are much better off than in Islamic republics, where everyone has their own interpretation of Islam and are ready to call the other a Kufr and kill in the name of Islam.

aamna, i am from india and a hardcore socialist... sincerely, i see you being more hindu than the hindus and also you are ignoring that modern indian muslims have become all about prayers, fastings, rituals, burqa, beard and talking nonsense ( mostly )... don't ignore the fact that modern indian muslims are different to those in syria, egypt, algeria and libya.

i am 36 of age and have seen a different culture among muslims twenty years back... all this burqa and beard thing is a modern obscenity... none of my female relatives wore burqa twenty years ago... come to bangalore... you will most muslim females here in burqa... an absolute shame of islam they are... absolute shame...

yes, india is truly a secular society and that is why it is a wrong society... every religion in india is allowed to create extreme oppressions out of stupid religious beliefs ( whether real part of that religion or cultural inclusion )... and that is why secularism is wrong.

why do you need to defend india, the sucide capital of the world?? a society of utter selfishness and capitalism... where a mother will respect her son only if he brings her money... a society of honor killings... a society where dogs have rights and humans don't... why should you defend such a society...

what india ( and south asia ) needs is socialism.

 

[Mav3rick]

@Mav3rick

1. Death for leaving Islam was perhaps relevant in the earlier times when there were not many Muslims but it appears not to be mandatory since there is no mention of this kind of punishment in Quran.

2. Jew and Christians (basically Jews, still follow the old testament) also suppose to pray several times a day, fast, make sacrifices (look Old testament and Talmud for instance) etc., but they (except their clergymen) are not following those commandments, just like many Muslims do not say their prayers 5 times every day. Average Christian or Jew not following their religion does not change what is in their books.

1. I was thinking on more or less the same lines, actually in the early days there were a lot of conversions based on personal interests rather then actual change of heart. For example, spies, trade merchants looking for unfair advantage, to protect oneself from war etc., therefore I wanted response from some scholar .

2. Correct and although you said the same thing, you probably went a step ahead and posted about actual practice. My concern was that the original religion has not changed throughout the periods and will never change. The followers, ofcourse, practice as they see fit and therefore we have so many sects.

 

[Mav3rick]

The difference between the example you gave and the example I gave is that- while in doing the example you gave, you hurt no one else, you affect no one else. You do these acts for your own spiritual satisfaction.

Whereas, in doing the example I gave - ie killing someone because he/she wants to leave Islam, your actions and faith is affecting someone else - another human being, in the worst possible manner.

Therefore it only takes a little amount of common sense to know when your actions are contravening human rights and when your actions are crossing that and hurting them.

While in praying - whether or not it benefits you - the loss to other humans is not established.
When you start killing those who wish to leave Islam - you are inflicting barbarity to other humans.

Just as I said earlier, you need a deeper understanding of religion to understand the above........and many other things. When we accept that Islam is Gods religion, amongst others like Christianity and Judaism, we submit ourselves to every word and every rule. Then we acknowledge that this life and everything attached to it are also gifts from God. When God orders us to execute murderers and rapists, He is merely ordering His subjects to do His bidding on His subjects. This life is His gift and He has total authority over it, He decides what punishments we must face and what rewards we reap in this life and the afterlife.

 

[Mav3rick]

This exposes your narrow understanding of Islam. Please before contributing more in this thread, Do research on Ijtihad done by Caliph Hazrat Umar (RA) on Mutaa marriage and the inclusion of a single line in Prayer Fajr, A Surah from Quran was excluded and temporary suspension of all the Quranic Punishments during the great calamity when people were forced to steal food and water and He banned hand chopping, whipping people on the basis Islamic government is incapable of providing relief to the people hence are in no position to give punishments

There are no surprises there. I have said it many many times on many many threads that Islamic punishments such as amputation etc., are applicable only in a true Islamic welfare system where nobody has to steal to satisfy the hell of hunger. Once the system is perfect and everybody is looked after, taken care of, as was practiced in the earlier days, only then should punishments such as amputations be allowed because then the thief is not driven by his/her basic needs but his greed and desire.

 

[Mav3rick]

To my shock is people are not ready to go by today's time needs n persists about some verses written some 1400 yrs ago.
Give me a logic why women cant lead a prayer in mosque for women n men ?
Sorry i am not here to bash religion n i even spare my religion for criticizing if it biased against humanity..... I have seen your earlier post too which are defiance of some Islamic verses not humanitarian n humans......
If any religious verses(Bible or Islam or Hindu) are so absolute then y brain exist inside human head which talk on the basis of reasoning n logic instead we could have simply dos n dons n human life would not have so miserable as we see it today.....

Doubt everything find your own light.....Bhudha...

I feel sorry for you for believing yourself to be more intelligent and enlightened then the God was 1400 years ago. I mean how pathetic are you and your kind, what sorry state of mind you all are in to question God's word and to measure it in time and space. Even though we are still unraveling the mysteries b/w time and space, your kind believe yourself to be so intelligent so as to question divine revelations.

A brain is present inside a small insect as well. There are intelligent animals that can use logic and reasoning to some extent.......does that mean that they start questioning their level of reasoning and logic with humans? There is gravity on earth which is not the same on the moon.......are the things not relative to their position in the universe? But well, as religion tell us that there are signs everywhere for those who can 'see' and who are not blinded.

 

[Dubious]

This is very nice.

Yea anything against our religion is nice to you lot

True. Indians mostly do not care much about religion. Any religion. We are touchy about culture, but religion is not a priority.

And hence why Islam is distorted towards culture over religion in S.Asia! And then people still blame religion when it is the culture that is taking the lead!

Guess you got your answer!

 

[Jf Thunder]

Yea anything against our religion is nice to you lot


And hence why Islam is distorted towards culture over religion in S.Asia! And then people still blame religion when it is the culture that is taking the lead!

Guess you got your answer!

Khala jee, you find the Hadith?