Chabahar vs Gwadar

[RIP Pak LAW]

Salman,

I am not Indian and I don't care about any trash chat between a random Indian and Pakistani individual. I have a problem with some Pakistanis' callous attitude of terrorism and sabotage.

I am assuming you an Afghani, as per your name, anyways why you are getting an impression of terrorism and sabotage from Pakistani posters ? I have nearly followed all the posts in this topic. Kindly let me know your concerns.

 

[Sabawoon_Noorzai]

Strange to see you guys have conveniently ignored his response to an Indian post here. First it was some Irani dude and now you. Go and scroll up other posts before commenting anything. His post was a reply to an Indian troll poster as he said this Gwadar port will fail to live up to its full potential.. We have deep assets in the area to sabotage the project if need be..Iran too would gladly lend us helping hand as it benefits them as well..




How exactly are we stopping Afghanistan trading with India ? May be too much of Indian media on your TV sets now. Karachi port is all for Afghanistan to trade with India or any other country. Its India who doesn't want to chose that port . Why don't you convince them at first place ? If India wants to send his goods via Pakistani land than they can thru our trucks ...that is an offer too. P.S since its our land not everything will be conducted as per Indian wishes.

What is wrong with you guys? Menace is asserting that trade between India and Afghanistan through Iran is encircling or isolating Pakistan. Why would India trade through Karachi when you will choke them when it suits you? What good reason is there for India to take this risk? I am not arguing on behalf of India and Indians, but just hypothetical question and I find it unreasonable that you put this question forward. I wish Pakistan all the success and prosperity. The attitude and even Pakistan's destructive policies I think stems from its insecurity and as an optimal resort. I hope this changes and Pakistani development and prosperity will benefit us the most. Rest assure we Afghans will be part of any initiative that will benefit you and the region.

I am assuming you an Afghani, as per your name, anyways why you are getting an impression of terrorism and sabotage from Pakistani posters ? I have nearly followed all the posts in this topic. Kindly let me know your concerns.

It is funny you are asking me this as this I would say not so untypical of Pakistani attitude and has been mainstay of Pakistani official policy.

Just think positive please. Pakistan and India long-standing is a great tragedy for the region, and more so to see the negativity and animosity on display in this forum. Please people, lets change this and start a revolution from here: time to work for Pak-India friendship. Lets being this.

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

What is wrong with you guys? Menace is asserting that trade between India and Afghanistan through Iran is encircling or isolating Pakistan. Why would India trade through Karachi when you will choke them when it suits you? What good reason is there for India to take this risk? I am not arguing on behalf of India and Indians, but just hypothetical question and I find it unreasonable that you put this question forward. I wish Pakistan all the success and prosperity. The attitude and even Pakistan's destructive policies I think stems from its insecurity and as an optimal resort. I hope this changes and Pakistani development and prosperity will benefit us the most.

India can do what ever she likes. But they deliberately will make excuses not to use Karachi port to make their case strong for Chahabar when economically Karachi suits them the most. Anyways best of luck to them for Chabahar.

Menance concerns are right as well since we have evidence of Indian involvement in Baluchistan unrest from Afghanistan's land. Hence we cannot allow Indians trespassing easily.

P.S Gwader's idea was made into inception in 2003 by Musharaf which irked India suddenly and they asked Iran for Chahabar. Talking about insecurity, why this option wasn't asked previously from Iran ? and again as soon Gwader made headlines this time around, they have brought Chabahar thing again LOL. Fact of the matter is, Gwader is well strategically place and has a great potential to rival any international port. This is the reason which has actually raised eyebrows for both Iran and India.

 

[Sabawoon_Noorzai]

Afghanistan and India friendship has long-lived. A new chapter is about to begin between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

 

[zzebie]

India can do what ever she likes. But they deliberately will make excuses not to use Karachi port to make their case strong for Chahabar when economically Karachi suits them the most. Anyways best of luck to them for Chabahar.

Menance concerns are right as well since we have evidence of Indian involvement in Baluchistan unrest from Afghanistan's land. Hence we cannot allow Indians trespassing easily.

P.S Gwader's idea was made into inception in 2003 by Musharaf which irked India suddenly and they asked Iran for Chahabar. Talking about insecurity, why this option wasn't asked previously from Iran ? and again as soon Gwader made headlines this time around, they have brought Chabahar thing again LOL. Fact of the matter is, Gwader is well strategically place and has a great potential to rival any international port. This is the reason which has actually raised eyebrows for both Iran and India.

I think it's more than making excuses. Nobody would like a choke hold on their trade lines ,especially in the context where it has fought full scale wars with the transit country in question. And in fact there are loads of people in Pakistan who opposed trade with India earlier. I am guessing this should make at least some sections in Pakistan happy.

I just see Gwadar and Chabahar serving two different purposes in the Asian context. Gwadar gives China access to the Arabian sea. Chabahar will give India an option to circumvent Pakistan and establish it's trade. Also, loosening of sanctions on Iran does seem, this project will go ahead. Strategically, does the timing sound suspect? Maybe, maybe not. As long as both India and China attain their objectives with these ports, it's good for all

 

[syedali73]

What is wrong with you guys? Menace is asserting that trade between India and Afghanistan through Iran is encircling or isolating Pakistan. Why would India trade through Karachi when you will choke them when it suits you? What good reason is there for India to take this risk?

And yet India wants to trade with Afghanistan through land, why? Cant Pakistan choke that route? To reach to Chah Bahar, India still has to ferry through our waters, cant that route be choked? Point is, Afghanistan and India, in order to do business with each others, have to pass through Pakistan, and to do that, they have to respect Pakistani interests. It is not like Afghanistan provides shelter to Mullah Fazal ullah, allows Indian training camps on her soil where TTP and Baloch serpatists are trained to carry out terrorism in Pakistan, and at the same time demands to let them do business with each other through Pakistan. Its not going to happen my friend. Whatever the route you choose, Pakistan is in the way so help us to help you.

BTW, I'll suggest you to show up flags for if your are a proud Afghan, there should be no reason not to display your country flag, and if you are a proud Indian, same applies.

 

[anonymus]

Western China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is western China, calculate the population yourself.

Familiarize yourself with western China, btw.

Dil bahlane ke liye khayal accha hai Ghalib.

What does Western China has to do with your corridor?

Your corridor is not airdropping in Western Qinghai so that it would have same effect on all of Western China; it is joining China in North-West corner of China ie Western corner of XinXiang (no 10). The only provinces that it could affect are no 10 (XinXiang) and its neighbours no9 (Tibet) ,no 8 (Qinghai) , no 7 (Gansu) in Western China, and no 4 (Inner Mongolia) in Northern China.

I have already counted all these provinces.And I am being generous here. XinXiang itself is so large that your corridor has no chance of affecting even its neighbours.

I think this problem that is shown by many poster in this thread arise from the fact they could not fathom that some provinces (mostly in Western China) are many times larger than even Pakistan itself. XinXiang is 2.1 times larger than Pakistan, Tibet is 1.54 times larger, Inner Mongolia 1.48 times larger, Qinghai equal to Pakistan, and Gansu half of Pakistan. You people seriously think that your highway would be used by people two province separated from Kashghar!!!!

Probably you does not understand that Eastern part of Western China is further away from Pakistan that even Europe!

For example capital of Shaanxi (Taiyuan) is as far away from Islamabad by air (3559 Km) as Ankara (3600 Km)

I am yet to understand this optimism of serving Eastern part of Western China.

let's do some analysis. I am calculating Islamabad so that you could get a grasp over distance as Ankara is 4400 Km away from Islamabad by road. and All distance henceforth are by road.


No 3 (Shaanxi), Capital (Taiyuan).

Distance of capital from Islamabad = 4904.3 Km

Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Tianjin)=943 Km

Distance of capital from Gwadar = 6644 Km


No 6 (Ningxia), Capital (Yinchuan)

Distance of capital from Islamabad = 4337 Km

Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Tianjin)= 1200 Km

Distance of capital from Gwadar = 6077 Km

No 1 (Chongquing) , No capital ( @Rasengan )

Distance of Chongquibg from Islamabad = 5069 Km

Distance of Chongquing from nearest Chinese seaport = 0 Km. After construction of Three Gorges Dam, barring largest cargo Ship, Ocean going ships could sail upto Chongquing.

But still distance between Chongquing and Shanghai is 1689 Km

Distance of Chongquing from Gwadar = 6843 Km

no 4 (Guzihou) , capital (gulyang)

Distance of capital from Islamabad = 5459 Km

Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Beihai) = 796 Km

Distance of capital from Gwadar = 7199 Km

No 5 (Yunnan) , capital (Kuming)


Distance of capital from Islamabad = 5859 Km

Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Beihai) = 1024 Km

Distance of capital from Gwadar = 7635 Km


No 2 (Sichuan) , capital (Chengdu)


Distance of capital from Islamabad = 4976 Km

Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Chongquing) = 326 Km and (Shanghai) = 1968 Km

Distance of capital from Gwadar = 6716 Km


All these Western provinces that you dream Gwadar would serve are farther away from Gwadar than Western Europe is from Pakistan by Road. Distance between Islamabad and Berlin by road is 6353 Km , and of Paris is 7300 Km; nearly of the order of distance of Gwadar from any of Eastern provinces of Western China.

Anyway China does not even intend to use Gwadar for these provinces. As another poster has pointed out, it already has a corridor via Myanmaar (Yunnan border Myanmar) for redundancy.

There is a new development of China using their newly constructed Port of Kyuakpyu in Myanmar. Please read and comment on the future of Gwadar vis-à-vis the new Myanmar Port :

With Oil And Gas Pipelines, China Takes A Shortcut Through Myanmar
Thanks

The reason behind population disparity in western China is inadequate economic development, of course there are other factors as well. Being a professional if I am to move I would chose a region where economic activity is high. Karachi's population has increased, in fact still increasing, because the city is economically developed. Same is the case with Indian cities, like Mumbai..

No, the reason that XinXiang (province that you border) is not developed is because most of XinXiang is covered with Takla Makan desert (Desert you border) Tien Shan range; Inner Mongolia is not developed because most of Inner Mongolia is covered with Gobi desert. Quinghai is not developed because most of its area is mountainous with Kulun Shan, ALtun shan and Bayan Har shan mountain ranges. Gansu is not beveloped because its area is covered with Gobi desert and Quilian Shan mountain range.Tibet is not developed because it is a barren cold plateau.


These places have a low population density because of geographical limitations. Desert and Mountains never support high population, and this is a basic economic rule that low population areas never have high growth potential (because of less number of producers and consumers). Barring discovery of oil, Desert remains civilization backwater, irrespective of how many road you build since their population supporting capacity is limited by some very basic factors, FOOD and WATER. Even if you transport food at great cost in this area, you would still have no water to support a large settlement.

Help yourself with China's physical map.

​

Your whole point is western China can't be developed, in fact shouldn't go through this phase because it's population is too low literally no one lives here. Having low population density doesn't mean the area shouldn't be developed. Look at the area of Canada and it's population density.

No.

My point was that province adjacent to Pakistan , and provinces that are adjacent to that province cannot be developed.

Western China!! What it has to do with your highway? Eastern part, where there is growth potential, is as far away from you as Europe.

Rajshstan is a desert but still a a 7th largest state of India

Only half of Rajasthan (West of Arravali range) is a desert.

​

It covers less than 40% of Rajasthan.

​

No, there's no break up between western and rest of the China. Difficult for me to recapitulate, this link might help.
China Western Development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.

Again. Your Highway/corridor has no relation to eastern part of Western China which has growth potential.

 

[Ajai Ghale]

Dil bahlane ke liye khayal accha hai Ghalib.

What does Western China has to do with your corridor?

Your corridor is not airdropping in Western Qinghai so that it would have same effect on all of Western China; it is joining China in North-West corner of China ie Western corner of XinXiang (no 10). The only provinces that it could affect are no 10 (XinXiang) and its neighbours no9 (Tibet) ,no 8 (Qinghai) , no 7 (Gansu) in Western China, and no 4 (Inner Mongolia) in Northern China.

I have already counted all these provinces.And I am being generous here. XinXiang itself is so large that your corridor has no chance of affecting even its neighbours.

I think this problem that is shown by many poster arise here because they could not fathom that some provinces (mostly in Western China) are many times larger than even Pakistan itself. XinXiang is 2.1 times larger than Pakistan, Tibet is 1.54 times larger, Inner Mongolia 1.48 times larger, Qinghai equal to Pakistan, and Gansu half of Pakistan. You people seriously think that your highway would be used by people two province separated from Kashghar!!!!

Probably you does not understand that Eastern part of Western China is more far away from Pakistan that even Europe!

For example capital of Shaanxi (Taiyuan) is as far away from Islamabad by air (3559 Km) as Ankara (3600 Km)

I am yet to understand this optimism of serving Eastern part of Western China.

let's do some analysis. I am calculating from Islamabad so that you could get a grasp over distance as Ankara is 4400 Km away from Islamabad by road. and All distance are by road.


No 3 (Shaanxi), Capital (Taiyuan).

Distance of capital from Islamabad = 4904.3 Km

Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Tianjin)=943 Km

Distance of capital from Gwadar = 6644 Km


No 6 (Ningxia), Capital (Yinchuan)

Distance of capital from Islamabad = 4337 Km

Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Tianjin)= 1200 Km

Distance of capital from Gwadar = 6077 Km

No 1 (Chongquing) , No capital ( @Rasengan )

Distance of Chongquibg from Islamabad = 5069 Km

Distance of Chongquing from nearest Chinese seaport = 0 Km. After construction of Three Gorges Dam, barring largest cargo Ship, Ocean going ships could sail upto Chongquing.

But still distance between Chongquing is 1689 Km

Distance of Chongquing from Gwadar = 6843 Km

no 4 (Guzihou) , capital (gulyang)

Distance of capital from Islamabad = 5459 Km

Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Beihai) = 796 Km

Distance of capital from Gwadar = 7199 Km

No 5 (Yunnan) , capital (Kuming)


Distance of capital from Islamabad = 5859 Km

Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Beihai) = 1024 Km

Distance of capital from Gwadar = 7635 Km


No 2 (Sichuan) , capital (Chengdu)


Distance of capital from Islamabad = 4976 Km

Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Shanghai) = 1968 Km

Distance of capital from Gwadar = 6716 Km


All these Western provinces that you dream Gwadar would serve are farther away from Gwadar than Western Europe is from Pakistan by Road. Distance between Islamabad and Berlin by road is 6353 Km , and of Paris is 7300 Km; nearly of the order of distance of Gwadar from any of Eastern provinces of Western China.

Anyway China does not even intend to use Gwadar for these provinces. As another poster has pointed out, it already has a corridor via Myanmaar (Yunnan border Myanmar) for redundancy.






No, the reason that XinXiang (province that you border) is not developed is because most of XinXiang is covered with Takla Makan desert (Desert you border), Inner Mongolia is not developed because most of Inner Mongolia is covered with Gobi desert. Quinghai is not developed because most of its area is mountainous with Kulun Shan and Bayan Har shan mountain ranges. Gansu is not beveloped because its area is covered with Gobi desert and Quilian Shan mountain range.Tibet is not developed because it is a barren cold plateau.


These places have a low population density because of geographical limitations. Desert and Mountains never support high population, and this is a basic economic rule that low population areas never have high growth potential (because of less number of producers and consumers). Barring discovery of oil, Desert remains civilization backwater, irrespective of how many road you build since their population supporting capacity is limited by a very basic thing, FOOD and WATER.

Help yourself with China's physical map.

​

No.

My point was that province adjacent to Pakistan , and provinces that are adjacent to that province cannot be developed.

Western China!! What it has to do with your highway? Eastern part, where there is growth potential, is as far away from you as Europe.



Only half of Rajasthan (West of Arravali range) is a desert.

​

It covers less than 40% of Rajasthan.

​

Again. Your Highway/corridor has no relation to eastern part of Western China which has growth potential.

BRO,As there is a FTA between Indian and ASEAN and if sanctions are lifted on Iran's could ASEAN countries Use Peninsular India Mainland to trade with Iran or Central Asia rather than their Ships travelled through all the way from Sri Lanka ?

 

[anonymus]

BRO,As there is a FTA between Indian and ASEAN and if sanctions are lifted on Iran's could ASEAN countries Use Peninsular India Mainland to trade with Iran or Central Asia rather than their Ships travelled through all the way from Sri Lanka ?

Ship in Colombo only docks for supply.

It is very difficult for an Indian port to compete with Colombo as Colombo is best located to act as supply dock for any ship traveling from Malacca to Hormuz or Suez.

Colombo could lose its prominence to Hambantota port of Sri-Lanka ,after it is properly developed; but not to any Indian port.

And no sanctions are going to lifted on Iran. It is ten year time table to bring sanctions at same level as they were in 2002. Iran would still be sanctioned to the level it was in 2002.

 

[Ajai Ghale]

Ship in Colombo only docks for supply.

It is very difficult for an Indian port to compete with Colombo as Colombo is best located to act as supply dock for any ship traveling from Malacca to Hormuz or Suez.

Colombo could lose its prominence to Hambantota port of Sri-Lanka ,after it is properly developed; but not to any Indian port.

And no sanctions are going to lifted on Iran. It is ten year time table to bring sanctions at same level as they were in 2002. Iran would still be sanctioned to the level it was in 2002.

So sethusamudram has no use ?

 

[punit]

Are u blind or what, this is his own forum

THEN HE CAN KICK US out ! so why whining!

 

[anonymus]

So sethusamudram has no use ?

It was a "Fück Singhala" project of DMK. Only port that Setusamudram project would have connected was Tuticorin and Chennai, and would have only diverted some of India-India maritime traffic.

International maritime traffic does not come anywhere near to Indian coast.

​

The ones coming near India are those that are India bound.

 

[black-hawk_101]

I think the GoP should not stop local and foreign investment just to Gwadar but makes its way to JIWANI as well. More over after that move from Gwadar till Karachi to make new ports and Ship yards. Allowing a coastal Real Estate boom.

Moreover, GoP should place an RFP for Thatta and Badin Ports too.

 

[vinay]

So sethusamudram has no use ?

Sethusamudram project if done would be a boon for India's east west trade.
If I remember right then in 90s the LTTE had managed to hijack a ship that was going to Colombo and after that ships were asked to maintain atleast 100nm safe distance from srilankan coast line.
You can imagine how much it was costing us in terms of fuel and time

 

[Ajai Ghale]

Sethusamudram project if done would be a boon for India's east west trade.
If I remember right then in 90s the LTTE had managed to hijack a ship that was going to Colombo and after that ships were asked to maintain atleast 100nm safe distance from srilankan coast line.
You can imagine how much it was costing us in terms of fuel and time

It would screw the Marine life and livelihood of Fishermen of south Indian states.