Chabahar port(iran) may win over gwadar

[kingkobra]

It seems you still don't know the difference between a Gulf and open sea.
Baluchistan province in Pakistan is still unstable and dangerous for a growing and steady trade.
despite some political problems,Iran has huge economic ties with Arab countries especially UAE and Qatar and also Oman.
For you information,Chabahar port is deep enough for the largest tankers and ships to use it.So it doesn't matter if Gwader is deeper or not.
Gwader is located near India,but what is the point when two countries are still hostile?India has good relations with Iran and so does China.
Pakistan doesn't have the necessary railroad to transfer the goods to central Asia and building a railroad also can be ery expensive because of high mountains.

please try to take new pics of chabahar port if it is allowed and post here

 

[Samlee]

You are forgetting the fact that in order to reach central Asian countries thorough Gwadar,you have Afghanistan on your way,the most unstable country in the world.But Iran have borders with Turkmenistan and also access to the Caspian sea and have a Railroad network from Chabahar to central Asia.Including sanctions,Iran's economy is still much more powerful than Pakistan and is going fast toward privatization and a free economy.

Afghanistan May Be Unstable Today But This Is Due To "War On Terror" and Presence of Foreign Forces and a Nationalist Insurgency.The End Game Is Near, America Is In Talks With Taliban.Once They Leave, Relative Calm Can Be Established.
No Offence Bro But 20000 Rials to The Dollar Is Not My Idea of a Strong Economy

 

[kollang]

please try to take new pics of chabahar port if it is allowed and post here

http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-images-multimedia/158021-iran-7.html#

 

[jinxeD_girl]

It seems you still don't know the difference between a Gulf and open sea.
Baluchistan province in Pakistan is still unstable and dangerous for a growing and steady trade.
despite some political problems,Iran has huge economic ties with Arab countries especially UAE and Qatar and also Oman.
For you information,Chabahar port is deep enough for the largest tankers and ships to use it.So it doesn't matter if Gwader is deeper or not.
Gwader is located near India,but what is the point when two countries are still hostile?India has good relations with Iran and so does China.
Pakistan doesn't have the necessary railroad to transfer the goods to central Asia and building a railroad also can be ery expensive because of high mountains.

And Sistan Va Balochistan Province of Iran is STABLE? Last time I checked Balochis don't want to be part of Iran either...

 

[Serpentine]

And Sistan Va Balochistan Province of Iran is STABLE? Last time I checked Balochis don't want to be part of Iran either...

Baluchistan in Iran is no more unstable since Iran's security forces tore the Jundallah terrorists apart by capturing Rigi,their leader.They can't operate since then and you can't compare Iran Baluchistan vs Pakistan's.
And who exactly said they no more want to be part of Iran?Even Rigi was insisting that he doesn't want Baluchistan to separate from Iran and said he was Iranian always would be.

 

[IranZamin]

^^lol what a uneducated people. but thanks for your post. saved energy and time arguing with a uneducated

 

[jinxeD_girl]

^^lol what a uneducated people. but thanks for your post. saved energy and time arguing with a uneducated

Check facebook.. how much Balochis love Iran.... but nevermind.... and don't call me uneducated if my views or opinions differs from yours.. you are most welcome to provide the right info though.. got it Mr "educated"

 

[IranZamin]

Check facebook.. how much Balochis love Iran.... but nevermind.... and don't call me uneducated if my views or opinions differs from yours.. you are most welcome to provide the right info though.. got it Mr "educated"

LMAO... facebook ? whats next ? twitter ? There was just 1 CIA culprit in the Sistan province and he got caught and executed, does it make all Balouchi people in Iran like him ? most of them love to be Iranian and considered as part of Iran.

Iranophobia has reached your brains (if you have any) too i guess

 

[God of Death]

please try to take new pics of chabahar port if it is allowed and post here

 

[Tshering22]

See, to be competing enough and to attract international businesses, one has to be:

- Investor friendly
- Free of trouble
- Have infrastructure complete
- Have safety and security
- Have good working force
- Have a stable setup environment

Pakistan is currently lacking these points except the second last point, which it has a good workforce available.

Chahbahar and Gwadar have the following similarity(s):

- Both are located in the same sphere.
- Both look to attract the same segment of businesses.

Iran has an upper hand:

- Iran is much more stable than Pakistan.
- Has better workforce available provincially.
- Is free from violent separatism in the province and this single factor makes Iran much more competitive.

The only problem is that while Iran has a lot of advantages over Pakistan, Western countries are on a collision course with her.

However, one cannot say anything about Western countries' politics; you never know when they'd change their minds looking at the merits and demerits on choosing which port to take first.

 

[Shinigami]

Gwadar and Chabahar display Chinese-Indian rivalry in the Arabian Sea


PARIS: Sino-Indian rivalry in the Indian Ocean and India’s naval cooperation with the US draw the world’s attention. But quietly, out of sight, a contest has been building in the Arabian Sea centered between two ports, one based in Pakistan and the other in Iran. The first is backed by China, the second by India. The first, located in Gwadar, is intended to give China access to the Indian Ocean; the second, Chabahar, is supposed to connect India to Afghanistan and counter the first. The two ports represent longstanding rivalries in the region and anticipation for intense geo-strategic competition.
Gwadar, with its proximity to the vital sea lane between the Middle East and China, has strategic importance for China, especially for oil trade. If China wants to emancipate itself from transportation or military problems along Asia’s southern coastline, direct access to the Indian Ocean may be the solution.
Direct access to the India Ocean would give China a strategic post of observation and a key location for its navy. While Myanmar and Sri Lanka can offer substantial support, the country that can best help Beijing is Pakistan because of its location and long-time friendship.
India, feeling encircled, reacted to this development. In his recent book on the Indian Ocean, journalist Robert Kaplan writes that “the Indians’ answer to Sino-Pakistani cooperation at Gwadar was a giant new $8 billion naval base at Karwar, south of Goa on India’s Arabian coast, the first phase of which opened in 2005.”

Map of Gwadar, Chabahar & Karwar. Enlarge Image
Karwar was only one part of the response to Gwadar. The other one is Chabahar. In 2002 India helped Iran to develop the port of Chabahar, located 72 kilometers west of Gwadar, soon after China began work at Gwadar.

Chabahar should provide India with access to Afghanistan via the Indian Ocean. India, Iran and Afghanistan have signed an agreement to give Indian goods, heading for Central Asia and Afghanistan, preferential treatment and tariff reductions at Chabahar.
Gwadar is located on the Gulf of Oman, close to the entrance of the Persian Gulf. Until 1958 it belonged to Oman, which gave this land to Pakistani rulers who expected that the location would contribute to what Kaplan calls “a new destiny.”
When President Richard Nixon visited Pakistan in 1973, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto sought US help to construct a new port at Gwadar, and reportedly offered the US Navy use of the facility. He was unsuccessful, and Pakistan then turned to China for help. Work started in 2002, and China has invested $200 million, dispatching 450 personnel for the first phase of the job completed in 2006 and resulting in a deep-sea port.
Direct access to the India Ocean, with Gwadar, would give China a strategic post of observation and a
key location for its navy.
The Port of Singapore Authority was selected to manage Gwadar in 2007. But it did not invest much money, and Pakistan decided to transfer port management to another institution, not yet selected but which will probably be Chinese. On 6 November 2010 the Supreme Court of Pakistan asked the Gwadar Port Authority to seek cancellation of the concession agreement with the Port of Singapore Authority.
At the same time, Pakistan and China contemplate developing the Karakorum Highway to connect China’s Xinjiang and Gilgit-Baltistan region of Pakistan. In 2006, a memorandum of understanding was signed between both countries to upgrade this road and connect Kashgar and Abbottabad. But the Karakorum Highway, the highest point of which passes at 4,693 meters, can open between May and December. It’s also vulnerable to landslides, so large trucks may not use it easily.
Pakistan and China also discussed building a 3,000-kilometer rail line between Kashgar and Gwadar, during President Asif Ali Zardari’s July 2010 visit with President Hu Jintao in Beijing. The cost would be enormous, up to $30 million per kilometer in the highest mountains.
In addition, Baluchistan is one of Pakistan’s most unstable provinces today because of the development of a nationalist movement with separatist overtones. Insurgents have already kidnapped and killed Chinese engineers in Gwadar.
Soon after China began work at Gwadar, India helped Iran to develop the port of Chabahar, located 72 kilometers west of Gwadar.
But China persists. More than a gateway to the Indian Ocean, Gwadar, at least, will provide Beijing with, first, a listening post from where the Chinese may exert surveillance on hyper-strategic sea links as well as military activities of the Indian and American navies in the region, and second, dual-use civilian-military facilities providing a base for Chinese ships and submarines.

For the Indians, this is a direct threat. The Delhi-based Institute for Defence Studies and Analysis recently published a report on Pakistan: the “Gwadar port being so close to the Straits of Hormuz also has implications for India as it would enable Pakistan to exercise control over energy routes. It is believed that Gwadar will provide Beijing with a facility to monitor US and Indian naval activity in the Persian Gulf and Arabian Sea, respectively, as well as any future maritime cooperation between India and the US.”
India responded by helping Iran with the port of Chabahar. Work on the Chabahar-Milak-Zaranj-Dilaram route from Iran to Afghanistan is in progress. India has already built the 213-kilometer Zaranj-Dilaram road in Afghanistan’s Nimroz province and helps Iran to upgrade the Chabahar-Milak railroad. Developing railroads and port infrastructure near the border of Afghanistan could strengthen Iranian influence in Afghanistan, especially among the Shia and non-Pashtun ethnic groups.
In developing Chabahar, India must factor in US attempts
at isolating Iran because of Tehran’s nuclear policy.
However, this Indo-Iranian project is bound to suffer from two problems:
First, politically, Afghanistan is unstable and may not oblige Iran and India if the Taliban or any Pakistan-supported government is restored. Chabahar is also part of one of Iran’s most volatile regions where anti-regime Sunni insurgents have launched repeated attacks.
Secondly, the work is far behind schedule. In July 2010, Iranian Deputy Foreign Minister Mohd Ali Fathollahi said the port was functional, but has a capacity of only 2.5 million tons per year, whereas the target was 12 million tons. Speeding work on the port was urged during the 16th Indo-Iranian Joint Commission meeting, attended by Iranian Finance Minister Seyed Shamseddin Hosseini and India’s External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna, who pointed out that “Iran’s assistance in developing the Chabahar port has been slow ‘til now.”
The connection between Gwadar and China remains distant, but could be the Suez Canal of the 21st century. At the minimum, this deep-sea port should provide Beijing with a strategic base soon.
The Chinese move prompted India to react – hence the development of Chabahar. But in developing this port, New Delhi must factor in US attempts at isolating Iran because of Tehran’s nuclear policy. How far the Indo-Iranian rapprochement is compatible with the growing Indo-American alliance remains to be seen.
The US and India may agree on the need to counter growing Chinese influence in Gwadar, but may also disagree on the policy India wants to pursue by joining hands with Iran.
Iran itself may not want to take any risk at alienating China, a country which has supported Tehran, including its nuclear policy, until recently.

 

[Arian]

Check facebook.. how much Balochis love Iran.... but nevermind.... and don't call me uneducated if my views or opinions differs from yours.. you are most welcome to provide the right info though.. got it Mr "educated"

Of course you're educated and you got a working brain too, but your argument about fb is too weak to prove anything.
Iran captured Rigi, the leader of Jundullah, and is continuously killing Jundullah terrorists. The number of operations of the Jundullah has significantly reduced after the arrest of Rigi. Even Rigi himself didn't claim to be a separatist, but he claimed to want more freedom for Baluchi people.

 

[Tshering22]

Of course you're educated and you got a working brain too, but your argument about fb is too weak to prove anything.
Iran captured Rigi, the leader of Jundullah, and is continuously killing Jundullah terrorists. The number of operations of the Jundullah has significantly reduced after the arrest of Rigi. Even Rigi himself didn't claim to be a separatist, but he claimed to want more freedom for Baluchi people.

Is there any press release by your military in English (or with subtitles)? Maybe you could post it here to convince jinxed_girl.

 

[Hello_10]

See, to be competing enough and to attract international businesses, one has to be:

- Investor friendly
- Free of trouble
- Have infrastructure complete
- Have safety and security
- Have good working force
- Have a stable setup environment

Pakistan is currently lacking these points except the second last point, which it has a good workforce available.

Chahbahar and Gwadar have the following similarity(s):

- Both are located in the same sphere.
- Both look to attract the same segment of businesses.

Iran has an upper hand:

- Iran is much more stable than Pakistan.
- Has better workforce available provincially.
- Is free from violent separatism in the province and this single factor makes Iran much more competitive.

The only problem is that while Iran has a lot of advantages over Pakistan, Western countries are on a collision course with her.

However, one cannot say anything about Western countries' politics; you never know when they'd change their minds looking at the merits and demerits on choosing which port to take first.

You forgot to mention two main points which make the main difference between Cha Bahar and Gwadar, that are:

1. Cha Bahar belongs to the country, Iran, which stands as ‘a country’ and it has deserving customers like India who has done much investments in developing this port for Iran and also making a road in Afghan connecting this port to Central Asia during last 10 years. and after losing billions of dollars of investments in Cha Bahar and Afghan, they believe India will finally be benefitted from 2020 onwards. But for Pakistan, even if they have a reliable customer like China, Pakistan can’t commit for anything more than 5-6 years. As, what will exactly happen to Pakistan and its geography etc, none from Pakistan’s think tank may commit to their friend, China. while Iran as a country will stand as it is after 20 years also so even China would better plan for Central Asia considering Cha Bahar only.

(As, didn’t US know cross border terrorism in Indian Kashmir since 1989, but they realized terrorism after 9/11 2001 only. In the same way, didn’t they know about troubles in Baluchistan for more than 5-6 decades, but if US congress is ‘now’ worried for human rights problems of Baluchistan then it simply means they want to do something there . Also Pakistan is full of traitors who will say exactly what US wants them to, so, future of Gwadar or Baluchistan isn’t clear. And from my side, I can say that a free Baluchistan will help US/ West solve their many problems. First it will build a base to free north west part of Pakistan also and then US may use Baluchistan as a 'strategic base' in this region. West believes, Pakistan can control only Punjab and Sindh, not Baluchistan or North West, and before these two states may completely fall on the hands of terrorism, they would better break it. We hope to see a parallel government of Baluchistan, backed by US+West within just 5-6 years from now, who will seek 'Peaceful Partition' from Pakistan, and this way north west of Pakistan will also get independence. Neither Pakistan can control these two states nor US wants Pakistan to handle these states anymore.)

2. And second, Cha Bahar belongs to the country, Iran, which stands as ‘a nation’ and being Irani, Persian, is their first proud. Similarly for Indians, Chinese, Russians etc. (and then Indians are hindu, muslims, sikhs, christians, bangali, punjabi, tamil, telagu etc). but for Pakistan, they are first Punjabi, Baloch, Sindhi, Mohajir, Sunni, Shia, Ahmadi, Kashmiri who dream for a free Kashmir from Pakistan, Pashtun etc. and then the number of being Pakistani also come. Hence, its not wise to talk to Pakistanis for Pakistan, but it is more wise to talk with Punjabis for Punjab, Siddhis for Sindh, Baloch for Baluchistan, Pashtun for their areas, with taking care that Shia would support shia only, sunni to sunni and Ahmadi, its different again.

Neither China nor any other country can talk to ‘a nation’, Pakistan, which doesn’t stand as Pakistan first.

I don’t know how old you people are, but, since around late 80s, we read in newspapers that Pakistan as a nation is based on triple A, AAA, since 1947 which means A - Allah, then A - Army finally A -America. Only these 3 A’s govern Pakistan and have established its base. And about first A – Allah, we now find militants misused it so badly that its better Pakistan would redefine it and don’t let its first A misused by extremists anymore. And about second A – Army, its now no doubt that Pakistani army’s bosses first misuse it to support militants, and sometimes they support US, and many times, they try to get personal benefits out of their position for their own/ their families, not for the country who is ruled by the corrupt politicians, ‘corruption’ about what the military bosses frequently talk to justify their corrupt steps also. And the third A – America, is now against Pakistan and wants to break it down, the safe haven of terrorists who may challenge West’s peace in future. with Baluchistan on center which they may use to first separate it from Pakistan along with its north west state, and then they will use Baluchistan for their strategic base in this region.

But today I saw the news as below and I would like to advise Pakistan’s rulers to talk to Chinese also and try to lease even the whole Pakistan to China now. Fall of triple A, AAA, simply means ‘re-think’ about Pakistan, the ‘nation’ and the ‘country’. China is now categorized as an Upper Middle Income Country and will soon become High Income country, very likely by 2020. And if Pakistan hands over every military/ foreign affairs and social issue to China and 'engage' China with their problems, and if China accept to lease the whole Pakistan, say for even 25 years, then Pakistan’s per capita income will also be fit in comparison with China after 25 years. Neither there is any industrialization of Pakistan nor it looks like in near future. Fall of AAA is more likely to break Pakistan on the name of areas, shia/ sunni, languages etc. but if Pakistan hands over itself to China for 25 years, say, China the top most rising economy, then they will get a very successful Pakistan back from China after 25 years from now. Pakistan would start working in this direction as soon as they can. A complete hand over of Pakistan’s military/ politics/ and foreign affairs to China is needed.

WASHINGTON: Seeking to fortify its strategic ties with China amid strains in relations with US, Pakistan is considering a proposal to lease the disputed Gilgit-Baltistan region to Beijing for 50 years, an eminent US-based think tank has claimed, citing local media.

The Pakistani move is aimed at cementing its all-weather relations with China amid the irreparable rupture in US-Pak ties over the past year, said Middle East Media Research Institute in a report released yesterday, which was based on news reports in this regard in local Urdu newspapers.

Pakistan considering proposal to lease Gilgit-Baltistan to China: US think tank - The Economic Times

Just have a look on the growth rate of Pakistan for last 5 years. It’s average growth rate was below 3% for last 5 years and growth rate of population was higher than its GDP growth, then what politicians wants to do with Pakistan? this much poor growth rate of Pakistan, a developin country? while law and order situation there is worse right now? almost every one is corrupt and target killing/ kidnapping with continuous human rights violation, with that, almost everyone of politics/ military bosses, including many in Judiciary have their loyalty for those who are based in West? Better lease it to CHina who may lift Pakistan up. Have a look on Tibet, even if Tibetans don’t want to be in China, can they refuse to accept that it is China only why they are now this much richer? Same will be true for Pakistan. fall of AAA simply means Pakistan needs a ‘complete change’, and how, they have to find out.

but from my side, I would like to advise Pakistan to learn more from Kazakhstan and Malaysia. Pakistan needs to move north and east, not West

 

[Tshering22]

You forgot to mention two main points which make the main difference between Cha Bahar and Gwadar, that are:

1. Cha Bahar belongs to the country, Iran, which stands as ‘a country’ and it has deserving customers like India who has done much investments in developing this port for Iran and also making a road in Afghan connecting this port to Central Asia during last 10 years. and after losing billions of dollars of investments in Cha Bahar and Afghan, they believe India will finally be benefitted from 2020 onwards. But for Pakistan, even if they have a reliable customer like China, Pakistan can’t commit for anything more than 5-6 years. As, what will exactly happen to Pakistan and its geography etc, none from Pakistan’s think tank may commit to their friend, China. while Iran as a country will stand as it is after 20 years also so even China would better plan for Central Asia considering Cha Bahar only.

Thanks for adding that. But I think I covered it in the point security and safety. Iranian nationhood remains strong and with a centralized security apparatus with full control of all provinces in that country, Iran has better chances of maintaining a strong rebel-free zone and therefore give tough competition to port cities like Dubai in future. As more and more investors from eastern world such as us, Malaysia, Indonesia and even countries from N-11 (next 11) grouping such as South Korea, Vietnam, Thailand etc come, the more will Chahbahar port's significance grow.

With a location like that, no one would want to stop. In fact, I am of the opinion that even West would change their "hostilities" with Iran.

(

As, didn’t US know cross border terrorism in Indian Kashmir since 1989, but they realized terrorism after 9/11 2001 only. In the same way, didn’t they know about troubles in Baluchistan for more than 5-6 decades, but if US congress is ‘now’ worried for human rights problems of Baluchistan then it simply means they want to do something there.

US is a strategist nation. It relies on keeping everyone else busy against each other and rising. Which is a smart thing IMO. Being geographically isolated from rest of the main world (Asia, Africa, Europe, Oceania etc), US has played their cards very well. The reason why Balochistan has come into notice out of the blue is because of two reasons:

- A backup leverage against Pakistan in case it goes too rogue against US/NATO interests in future.
- Opportunity to potentially seek resources in Balochistan which is a gas-rich province.
- The location on which Balochistan sits:-- too valuable.

First it will build a base to free north west part of Pakistan also and then US may use Baluchistan as a strategic base in this region. West believe, Pakistan can control only Punjab and Sindh, not Baluchistan or North West, and before these two states may completely fall on the hands of terrorism, they would better break it. We hope to see a parallel government of Baluchistan, backed by US+West within just 5-6 years from now, who will seek peaceful partisan from Pakistan, and this way north west of Pakistan will also get independence. Neither Pakistan can control these two states nor US wants Pakistan to handle these states anymore.)

Pakistan needs a strong restructuring of its politics and ideology. The further they deviate from reality, the deeper they get into the shytestorm. There are a lot of things they have to change before jumping into the path of development:

- Remove ideological blockage of some imaginary Islamic union and thinking of themselves as a leader of it.

- Remove needless hostilities they have against us based on this above hypothetical ideology.

- Decide what course of political action they would settle for; no nation is too stable if it keeps alternatively switch from junta government to civilian government. It can only be either.

- Stop jumping bandwagons from one to another and start taking a stand for itself-- only possible when it ceases hostilities with us and Afghanistan needlessly. They are being an enemy to themselves rather than us.

If these 4 steps are taken, there would be a massive and positive change seen in Pakistan which would be welcoming to the global investors.

World runs on trade-offs and they must stop thinking that it is a zero sum game all the time.

Pakistan has potential but remains unused.

2 And second, Cha Bahar belongs to the country, Iran, which stands as ‘a nation’ and being Irani, Persian, is their first proud. Similarly for Indians, Chinese, Russians etc. (and then Indians are hindu, muslims, sikhs, christians, bangali, punjabi, tamil, telagu etc). but for Pakistan, they are first Punjabi, Baloch, Sindhi, Mohajir, Sunni, Shia, Ahmadi, Kashmiri who dream for a free Kashmir from Pakistan, Pashtun etc. and then the number of being Pakistani also come. Hence, its not wise to talk to Pakistanis for Pakistan, but it is more wise to talk with Punjabis for Punjab, Siddhis for Sindh, Baloch for Baluchistan, Pashtun for their areas, with taking care that Shia would support shia only, sunni to sunni and Ahmadi, its different again. Neither China nor any other country can talk to ‘a nation’, Pakistan, which doesn’t stand as Pakistan first.

These differences come from the obsession of an unwavering sense of forced unity that their generals tried to create. Rather than embracing the differences and let it freely become one single entity, they thought forced unity will do better. Unfortunately, it backfired.

Add to that their hostilities along the same line with Afghanistan and us. It further complicated their already complex situation. Despite Soviet communism, Russians never clamped down regressively against Siberians, Kazakhs, Tajiks, etc. That is what allowed USSR to massively progress in 60s and 70s.

They never learnt to embrace syncretic diversity (same root different branches concept) like you and we did.

I don’t know how old you people are, but, since around late 80s, we read in newspapers that Pakistan as a nation is based on triple A, AAA, since 1947 which means A - Allah, then A - Army finally A -America. Only these 3 A’s govern Pakistan and have established its base. And about first A – Allah, we now find militants misused it so badly that its better Pakistan would redefine it and don’t let its first A misused by extremists anymore. And about second A – Army, its now no doubt that Pakistani army’s bosses first misuse it to support militants, and sometimes they support US, and many times, they try to get personal benefits out of their position for their own/ their families, not for the country who is ruled by the corrupt politicians, ‘corruption’ about what the military bosses frequently talk to justify their corrupt steps also. And the third A – America, is now against Pakistan and wants to break it down, the safe haven of terrorists who may challenge West’s peace in future. with Baluchistan on center which they may use to first separate it from Pakistan along with its north west state, and then they will use Baluchistan for their strategic base in this region.

Very true. Though I was a very young kid in 80s, I have read this particular topic in detail later on when I grew up in my teens. There is 100% truth in the article. The 3 As are still applicable even though the third A i.e. America is tried to be changed into C i.e. China. Which even Chinese aren't too keen to push forward despite cold relations between us and the Chinese.

But today I saw the news as below and I would like to advise Pakistan’s rulers to talk to Chinese also and try to lease even the whole Pakistan to China now. Fall of triple A, AAA, simply means ‘re-think’ about Pakistan, the ‘nation’ and the ‘country’. China is now categorized as an Upper Middle Income Country and will soon become High Income country, very likely by 2020. And if Pakistan hands over every military/ foreign affairs and social issue to China and engage China with their problems, and if China accept to lease the whole Pakistan, say for even 25 years, then Pakistan’s per capita income will also be fit in comparison with China after 25 years. Neither there is any industrialization of Pakistan nor it looks like in near future. Fall of AAA is more likely to break Pakistan on the name of areas, shia/ sunni, languages etc. but if Pakistan hands over itself to China for 25 years, say, China the top most rising economy, they will get a very successful Pakistan back from China after 25 years from now. Pakistan would start working in this direction as soon as they can. A complete hand over of Pakistan’s military/ politics/ and foreign affairs to China is needed.

The desperate attempt to remove US and replace it with Chinese isn't possible even by Pakistanis. Chinese haven't been too responsive to this embrace either. While they appreciate cordial ties and keep Pakistanis as a distraction for us, they also don't want to push this too far away (except this forum) as our economic ties with China are far more valuable than what they could get out of Pakistan.

Nothing against China or Pakistan but this is a global reality: Realpolitik.

Just have a look on the growth rate of Pakistan for last 5 years. It’s average growth rate was below 3% for last 5 years and growth rate of population was higher than its GDP growth, then what politicians wants to do with Pakistan? this much poor growth rate of Pakistan, a developin country? while law and order situation there is worse right now? almost every one is corrupt and target killing/ kidnapping with continuous human rights violation, with that, almost everyone of politics/ military bosses, including many in Judiciary have their loyalty for those who are based in West? Better lease it to CHina who may lift Pakistan up

.

China would do no more benefit to Pakistan than what USA did. 20-40 years ago, US was in the same position where China is being kept today in the eyes of Pakistanis. They loved everything about US so much that they were even more Americanized thought-wise than Japanese and Koreans.

This might sound new to you Russian folks, but ask your older generation about it; they would know why this is so.

China is looking for the same benefit US is looking. Pakistan needs to lease itself back to itself rather than to any other country. Only then it will improve.

Have a look on Tibet, even if Tibetans don’t want to be in China, can they refuse to accept that it is China only why they are now this much richer? Same will be true for Pakistan. fall of AAA simply means Pakistan needs a ‘complete change’, and how, they have to find out.

The two are incomparable, buddy. Totally different case.

but from my side, I would like to advise Pakistan to learn more from Kazakhstan and Malaysia. Pakistan needs to move north and east, not west

Kazakhstan and Malaysia are good examples but Pakistan has no shortage of role models; It admired Turkey a lot and for good reasons. Turkey is the best example they could follow. But unfortunately there is too much fanaticism in Pakistani mindset to ever become like Turkey or Kazakhstan.

Besides, Kazakhstan is also normal because you guys influenced them during USSR time. Otherwise, it also has a strong sense of intolerance that reflects many times in small isolated incidents.

But I would definitely agree that Almaty and Kuala Lumpur are classic examples of peaceful and progressive countries.