Caption please ?

[salarsikander]

Oh my god, a bald eagle. My god an American flag on the bald eagles face. DAMNNNN even the nickname is Providence. Must be some pure blood american from south. Nope, just a desi toilet cleaner.

bare tryina act like Amerrrican

 

[TankMan]

I am surprised that all the Pakistanis complaining are living abroad. They ran off from the country and think they are bigger patriots than the soldier guarding people in sweltering heat.

As for namaz, namaz is never allowed to be missed. Not even in war. For war conditions QURAN, not me, or some other scholar, QURAN says that one party should pray and the other stay alert and then the other party should pray.

Millions of muslims sacrificed their lives for a nation for muslims, and we'd be damned if a muslim in our nation cannot say a prayer in peace.

Namaz is allowed to be missed in extreme circumstances, Islam is a reasonable religion and people can miss a prayer or join it with another one if they're actively engaged in battle, or, say, a surgeon operating on someone.

But in times of relative peace, such as guarding an area, yes, one party should pray while the other stands guard. Not to mention the timings for most prayers allow for a few hours' time, so a soldier could wait till his shift finished before he started praying.

And yes, I agree with the last part. Seeing people who don't even know the situation talking about 'throwing the soldier off a bridge' for praying is disgustingly appalling.

 

[Mutakalim]

Dont mind but this is the time a terrorist might prefer to attack him. Duty should be his first priority.

You are unaware of ground realities in karachi. karachi is not a war zone as some of foreigners think it to be. Its a hustling bustling city.
If you watch it carefully another rangers personnel is protecting him.

There's no logic!!!
During an ongoing war would you stop fighting just so that you could pray??? Being religious is good but following it blindly is not.

Their is no war going on in karachi as we speak. In Pakistan its a routine matter, that people take a 10 to 15 minutes brake for prayers. Its not a big issue as some of my fellow pakistanis are sujjesting.

If I was his CO I would have him dragged and thrown over the bridge ...
Dereliction of duty is unforgivable. Innocent children could die because of this guy ...
Guy is waste of space ...

Thank God you are not his CO. That is not a big thing to fuss about it.
By that logic 80% of employed pakistanis are waste of space

 

[Jungibaaz]

I am surprised that all the Pakistanis complaining are living abroad. They ran off from the country and think they are bigger patriots than the soldier guarding people in sweltering heat.

We ran off?

Both you and the other guy and your comments piss me off more than any troll from across the border.

Yes, we ran away, and while we are gone you've destroyed the nation we once knew, you've sat around and let your own country go to hell, all while privileged escapees like us send some hard cash back home to bail your sorry behinds out.

I and others like me can do more for my country here than you could, that's a bet I'd take. Try to realise what it means for Pakistan to have so many citizens abroad still dedicated enough to it's nation to constantly be fretting over it and year after year, bailout it's pathetic economy.

 

[user1]

When you [believers] are traveling in the land, you will not be blamed for shortening your prayers, if you fear the disbelievers may harm you: they are your sworn enemies. (4:101) When you [Prophet] are with the believers, leading them in prayer, let a group of them stand up in prayer with you, taking their weapons with them, and when they have finished their prostration, let them take up their positions at the back. Then let the other group, who have not yet prayed, pray with you, also on their guard and armed with their weapons: the disbelievers would dearly like you to be heedless of your weapons and baggage, in order for them to take you in a single assault. You will not be blamed if you lay aside your arms when you are overtaken by heavy rain or illness, but be on your guard. Indeed, God has prepared a humiliating punishment for the disbelievers. (4:102) After performing the ritual prayer, continue to remember God –– standing, sitting, and lying on your sides –– and once you are safe, keep up regular prayer, for prayer is obligatory for the believers at prescribed times. (Quran 4:103)

 

[Indus Pakistan]

He is allowed to do that during breaks or post duty.

Agreed. However it appears to me that they are on duty ....

I know religion is a touchy subject and because he is praying and being seen to be 'pious' he has everything tilted in his favour and not seen to be proper by questioning him. IMHO in so far as we can draw any conclusions he is on duty from the image capture. They are on top of a bridge, uniformed, part of the patrol is standing behind armed and watching. All this leads me to conclude on the balance of probability that this soldier has taken unto himself 'time out'. After all who in their right mind in Pakistan is going to complain about him unless you want a bullet in your head?

In principle of course if he is off duty and or on authorized 'break' that is entirely differant matter. At heart of what I said alludes to the fact that in Pakistan we have taken public religiousity and rituelism to altogather another level. We wear religion on our sleeves. Form over substance.Things might not be too bad if all this public amd rampant religiousity actually improved the human state, that is made us more humble, more law abiding, more nicer to each other, more caring, more considerate however having spoken to many people who grew up in the more placid 1950s, 60s tell me people in Pakistan are more edgy, explosive ( literal and metephorically speaking ) more prone to tear each other apart at the slightest excuse of sectarian, ethnic or some other self made divide.

We have not created a nation instead we have warring groups. We have millions of who owe their allegiance to whatever takes their fancy. Take the religious brigade, they don't have any loyalty to Pakistan. They claim they have loyalty to higher authority Allah. That is well and fine but the problem is who is the 'medium or translater' of the almighty's authority? Qadri who murdered Salman Taseer validates his murder by invoking that very authority himself.

In fact what we have created is perfect recipe for chaos. For everybody can invoke the authority of Almight and regard himself as the 'translator'. Only problem is the next guy does the same thing only his invokation translates into something he feel contradicts with the first person. Result: Two people both feel they have almighty behind thus have no quiver of doubt. That leads to only one thing ... death as they kill each other in the certitude that they alone are extending Islam.

Only few days ago dozens were murdered in Karachi, the people who did it were driven with the faith that they were extending Islam and meting out Islamic justice and defending Islam. That group had arrogated the authority to decide themselves, Salman Taseer's murderer arrogated that right to translate unto himself and in a ever so tiny, minuscule way this soldier is doing the same, namely arrogating the right to this with the knowledge and belief that his has almighty to back him up. With that behind him which mortal dare question him?

Kindly note I am going on the assumption that this trooper was on duty which perforce to me looks the case. As stated before if he is off duty or on break what he is doing is perfectly valid ...

 

[jamahir]

Agreed. However it appears to me that they are on duty ....

I know religion is a touchy subject and because he is praying and being seen to be 'pious' he has everything tilted in his favour and not seen to be proper by questioning him. IMHO in so far as we can draw any conclusions he is on duty from the image capture. They are on top of a bridge, uniformed, part of the patrol is standing behind armed and watching. All this leads me to conclude on the balance of probability that this soldier has taken unto himself 'time out'. After all who in their right mind in Pakistan is going to complain about him unless you want a bullet in your head?

In principle of course if he is off duty and or on authorized 'break' that is entirely differant matter. At heart of what I said alludes to the fact that in Pakistan we have taken public religiousity and rituelism to altogather another level. We wear religion on our sleeves. Form over substance.Things might not be too bad if all this public amd rampant religiousity actually improved the human state, that is made us more humble, more law abiding, more nicer to each other, more caring, more considerate however having spoken to many people who grew up in the more placid 1950s, 60s tell me people in Pakistan are more edgy, explosive ( literal and metephorically speaking ) more prone to tear each other apart at the slightest excuse of sectarian, ethnic or some other self made divide.

We have not created a nation instead we have warring groups. We have millions of who owe their allegiance to whatever takes their fancy. Take the religious brigade, they don't have any loyalty to Pakistan. They claim they have loyalty to higher authority Allah. That is well and fine but the problem is who is the 'medium or translater' of the almighty's authority? Qadri who murdered Salman Taseer validates his murder by invoking that very authority himself.

In fact what we have created is perfect recope for chaos. For everybody can invoke the authority of Almight and regard himself as the 'translator'. Only problem is the next guy does the same thing only his invokation translates into something he feel contradicts with the first person. Result: Two people both feel they have almighty behind thus have no quiver of doubt. That leads to only one thing ... death as they kill each other in the certitude that they alone are extending Islam.

Only few days ago dozens were murdered in Karachi, the people who did it were driven with the faith that they were extending Islam and meting out Islamic justice and defending Islam. That group had arrogated the authority to decide themselves, Salman Taseer's murderer arrogated that right to translate unto himself and in a ever so tiny, minuscule way this soldier is doing the same, namely arrogating the right to this with the knowledge and belief that his has almighty to back him up. With that behind him which mortal dare question him?

Kindly note I am going on the asumption that this trooper was on duty which perforce to me looks the case. As stated before if he is off duty or on break what he is doing is perfectly valid ...

wonderful words.

 

[TankMan]

Agreed. However it appears they are on duty ....

I know religion is a touchy subject and because he is praying and being 'pious' he has everything tilted in his favour and not seen to be proper by questioning him. IMHO in so far as we can draw any conclusions he is on duty from the image capture. They are on top of a bridge, uniformed, part of the patrol is standing behind armed watching. All this leads me to conclude on the balance of probability that this soldier has taken unto himself to 'take time out'. After all who in their right mind in Pakistan is going to complain about him unless you want a bullet in your head.

In principle of course if he is off duty and or on authorized 'break' that is entirely differant matter. At heart of what I said alludes to the fact that in Pakistan we have taken public religiousity and rituelism to another level. We wear religion on our sleeves. Form over substance.Things might not be too bad if all this public amd pampent religiouisity actually improved the human state, that is made us more humble, more law abiding, more nicer to each other, more caring, more considerate however having spoken to many people who grew up in the more placide 1950s, 60s tell me people in Pakistan are more edgy, explosive ( literal and metephorically speaking ) more prone to tear each other apart of the slightest excuse of sectarian, ethnic or some other sel made divide.

We have not created a nation. Instead we have millions of who owe their allegiance to whatever takes their fancy. Take the religious brigade, they don't have any loyalty to Pakistan. They claim they have loyalty to higher authority Allah. That is well in fine but the problem is who is the 'medium or translater' of the almighty's authority? Qadri who murdered Salman Taseer validates his murder by invoking that very authority.

In fact what we have created is perfect recope for chaos. For everybody can invoke the authority of Almight and regard himself as the 'translator'. Only problem is the next guy does the same thing only his invokation translates into something he feel contradicts the first person. Result: Two people bothfeel they have almighty behind thus have no quiver of doubt. That leads to only one thing ... death as they kill each other in the certitude that they alone have extending Islam.

Only few days ago dozens were murdered in Karachi the people who did it were driven with the faith that they were extending Islam and meting out Islamic justice and fending Islam. That group have arrogated the authority to decide themselves, Salman Taseer's murderer arrogated that right to translate unto himself and in a ever so tiny, minuscule way this soldier is doing the same, namely arrogating the right to this with the knowledge that his has almighty to back him up.

Kindly note I am going on the asumption that this trooperwas on duty which perforce to me looks the case. As stated before if he is off duty or on break that is perfectly valid ...

Pakistanis are religious people, there is nothing that can change that. The most we can change is reduce extremism and learn to tolerate differences of opinion. That would handle all the Qadris and Mullahs.

I'll be blunt: your statement about ''the religious brigade'' is nonsense. Over 90% of Pakistan is religious. Some more than others. But to claim that they have ''no loyalty to Pakistan'' because they have more loyalty to God is preposterous.

And so is your point about ''arrogating the right'' to pray. To arrogate means to claim something unjustly. The soldier definitely has the right to pray, he doesn't have to claim it.

Prayer is an essential element of Islam, and Islam is an essential part of the lives of the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis. That is not changing anytime soon. Problems in Islam are like mold on a wall. You don't demolish the entire wall to remove mold - you just remove the mold. It would be infinitely more practical, realistic and effective to educate people and ensure no one takes the authority to kill or fight in the name of religion than it would be to remove religion entirely.

Also, since we're on the topic about extremism, your statement that you'd ''throw him off the bridge'' for praying is nothing short of extremism. I don't care if it's secular or whatever, it is extremism.

You don't know exactly what happened there or what the circumstances were; you said it ''appears to you'' that he is on duty and your opinion and perception is based on inferences from a still picture. A few points to consider are that he is covered by his colleague standing a few feet away, so he has not left the post exposed. He probably requested the other guy to cover for him, or was on break and decided it would be more convenient to pray on the street near his post instead of going somewhere else and then return to his post after the break had ended. These are also inferences from the same picture and thus are as valid as your observations.

With that in mind, it is too hasty, improvident and unjust to condemn this man to death or severe injury like you did.

And it has nothing to do with some extremist form of ''piety'' or ''ritualism'', soldiers need some belief and some hope with the kind of hardships they face, it is perfectly rational and reasonable. For this soldier, and many others, it is religion. Why you'd wish to take that away from him is beyond me. The few minutes he spends praying doesn't reduce his effectiveness as a soldier - it probably increases his morale and tolerance tenfold, thus increasing his effectiveness as a soldier.

 

[jamahir]

Caption please ?


View attachment 223730

my suggestion for caption... "closer to god or away from thought??"

 

[Indus Pakistan]

And so is your point about ''arrogating the right'' to pray. To arrogate means to claim something unjustly. The soldier definitely has the right to pray, he doesn't have to claim it.

Yes indeed he has arrogated if he is on duty. If and I stress this he is on duty he has no right to make a unilateral decision that he indeed has the discretion to decide if he can pray. In his position as a member of a uniformed, disciplined organization he has absolutlely no right to make such disretionery decisions.

The soldiers rights as a individuel are separate to his duties and obligations to a uniformed organization. He can't decide for himself. Again if he has permission from his officer or is on break that is altogather differant matter.

My contention is he is on duty. In such circumstances he should be doing his job. People's lives depend on security that he is supposed to be providing. Allah in his almighty wisdom would know that vigilence is required of a soldier on duty and praying might compromise that. If you were having heart surgery would you appreciate if the surgeon invoked his religious rights and walked off to pray?

The matter I touch is subtle, occupies a sliver of space but is fundamental and of a magnitude that can bring entire organizations crashing down. If a soldier can 'decide' or has 'discretion' over matters relating to religion then don't complain if the same soldier concludes that his army is following a 'kaffir' entity and decides to go against the interests of his own army. That would eat the inside out of the army.

Something that the army has recently woken upto.

We ran off?

Both you and the other guy and your comments piss me off more than any troll from across the border.

Yes, we ran away, and while we are gone you've destroyed the nation we once knew, you've sat around and let your own country go to hell, all while privileged escapees like us send some hard cash back home to bail your sorry behinds out.

I and others like me can do more for my country here than you could, that's a bet I'd take. Try to realise what it means for Pakistan to have so many citizens abroad still dedicated enough to it's nation to constantly be fretting over it and year after year, bailout it's pathetic economy.

Bravo to that. Not blowing my trumpet here. The amount of money that me and my extended family like other ex pats have sent over to Pakistan must run into many £100,000s that probably is greater then many companies in Pakistan. We keep that PIA job-bank going by paying for poor service for inflated prices. We fight for Pakistan every day. In fact I am prepared to wager that this website was set up by some expatriates and half of the members are ex pats also. All the dirty polticians send money abroad while we in our stupid loyalty send money to Pakistan.

wonderful words.

What can I say I am a wonderful person ......
I was told my weakness is modesty.

 

[TankMan]

my suggestion for caption... "closer to god or away from thought??"

My suggestion for caption: ''Bowing to God to ensure he never bows to evil''.

Yes indeed he has arrogated if he is on duty. If and I stress this he is on duty he has no right to make a unilateral decision that he indeed has the discretion to decide if he can pray. In his position as a member of a uniformed, disciplined organization he has absolutlely no right to make such disretionery decisions.

Keyword: if. If he is on duty. You can not judge that based on the picture alone, since you do not know whether he has some arrangement with his CO and/or colleagues or whether or not he was on a break. If he was on duty and abandoned his post to pray, then yes it is an arrogation and should be punished fairly. But you can not decide that from your armchair.

My contention is he is on duty. In such circumstances he should be doing his job.

And my contention is that there is absolutely no way to ascertain whether or not he was on duty based on the image alone.

Allah in his almighty wisdom would know that vigilence is required of a soldier on duty and praying might compromise that.

Postponing prayers or joining them with the next prayer is allowed for this very reason. Prayer times are also long enough for a soldier to wait for an appropriate time before praying.

If you were having heart surgery would you appreciate if the surgeon invoked his right and walked off to pray?

I wouldn't mind at all if the surgeon had another equally skilled surgeon take over before he went to pray, as is the case with the soldier being covered by his comrades in the picture.

The matter I touch is subtle, occupies a sliver of space but is fundamental and of a magnitude that can bring entire organizations crashing down. If a soldier can 'decide' or has 'discretion' over matters relating to religion then don't complain if the same soldier concludes that his army is following a 'kaffir' entity and decides to go against the interests of his own army.

The soldier has discretion over what religion he wants to follow and how he wants to follow it. He also has the discretion to decide what he wants to do during his break times, and his CO has the discretion to appoint a soldier to cover his position and allow him to pray.

That is completely different from deciding his Army was kafir and going against it. Completely. That's akin to saying someone who has control over a Suzuki can fly an F-16 since they're both vehicles - the fact that both are religious matters doesn't mean they're the exact same.

Like I said, mold on a wall. The possibility of soldiers turning against the Army over religion is a small spot of mold in the otherwise robust proverbial wall that is religion. If your argument is about discipline, I'm all for it. If it's for some kind of 'enforced secularization' that deprives soldiers the right to follow their religion even though they are not compromising duty, just because they 'could' compromise their duty if they decided to pray while abandoning their posts, it is flawed and I oppose it. That would actually increase the chance of treachery and reduce morale greatly.

That would eat the inside out of the army.

Something that the army has recently woken upto.

The Army had woken up to that issue a couple of decades ago.

 

[jamahir]

What can I say I am a wonderful person ......
I was told my weakness is modesty.

you were told wrong.

My suggestion for caption: ''Bowing to God to ensure he never bows to evil''.

continuation, "meanwhile, evil sees a chance and blows citizen abdul to bits."

 

[Indus Pakistan]

All along my argument was premised on him being on duty. That is matter of opinion and subjective. However you were despite reading my repeated caveats peddling in another direction.

If you think he is on authorised break then there is nothing to discuss. My argument was contingent on him being on duty.

I reiterate no soldier has the right or discretion to arrogate unto himself any matters based on beliefs because if that principle is accepted then the army will come crashing down like rotten timber hut.

Beliefs are open to translation and discretionery. A military organization is defined by lack of those rights. Period. That's what military organizations are marked out from civilian organizations.

End of discussion.

 

[TankMan]

continuation, "meanwhile, evil sees a chance and blows citizen abdul to bits."

See those two guys in the background? They aren't blind and are covering for him. Evil doesn't stand a chance.

All along my argument was premised on him being on duty. That is matter of opinion and subjective. However you were despite reading my repeated caveats peddling in another direction.

If you think he is on authorised break then there is nothing to discuss. My argument was contingent on him being on duty.

I reiterate no soldier has the right or discretion to arrogate unto himself any matters based on beliefs because if that principle is accepted then the army will come crashing down like rotten timber hut.

Beliefs are open to translation and discretionery. A military organization is defined by lack of those rights. Period. That's what military organizations are marked out from civilian organizations.

End of discussion.

So, essentially, your argument was based solely on discipline and the premise of him being on duty - that means you were just going off on a tangent on your whole paragraphs about discretion and how people become ''intermediaries of God'' and get people killed. That also means you admit you were wrong to suddenly decide that throwing the man off a bridge because it looks like he might be on duty is a good idea.

I was not peddling in any direction other than the one you were headed in with all of that which I have quoted below:

We have millions of who owe their allegiance to whatever takes their fancy. Take the religious brigade, they don't have any loyalty to Pakistan. They claim they have loyalty to higher authority Allah. That is well and fine but the problem is who is the 'medium or translater' of the almighty's authority? Qadri who murdered Salman Taseer validates his murder by invoking that very authority himself.

In fact what we have created is perfect recipe for chaos. For everybody can invoke the authority of Almight and regard himself as the 'translator'. Only problem is the next guy does the same thing only his invokation translates into something he feel contradicts with the first person. Result: Two people both feel they have almighty behind thus have no quiver of doubt. That leads to only one thing ... death as they kill each other in the certitude that they alone are extending Islam.

Only few days ago dozens were murdered in Karachi, the people who did it were driven with the faith that they were extending Islam and meting out Islamic justice and defending Islam. That group had arrogated the authority to decide themselves, Salman Taseer's murderer arrogated that right to translate unto himself and in a ever so tiny, minuscule way this soldier is doing the same, namely arrogating the right to this with the knowledge and belief that his has almighty to back him up. With that behind him which mortal dare question him?

Even though all that was based on the premise of him being on duty, it had to be addressed - because this little passage changed the argument from being about the simple principle of military discipline to being about the 'dangers of religion' and some idea of 'enforced secularism'.

Like I said, If your argument is about discipline, I'm all for it. If it's for some kind of 'enforced secularization' that deprives soldiers the right to follow their religion even though they are not compromising duty, I'm not for it.

End of discussion.

 

[Indus Falcon]

All along my argument was premised on him being on duty. That is matter of opinion and subjective. However you were despite reading my repeated caveats peddling in another direction.

If you think he is on authorised break then there is nothing to discuss. My argument was contingent on him being on duty.

I reiterate no soldier has the right or discretion to arrogate unto himself any matters based on beliefs because if that principle is accepted then the army will come crashing down like rotten timber hut.

Beliefs are open to translation and discretionery. A military organization is defined by lack of those rights. Period. That's what military organizations are marked out from civilian organizations.

End of discussion.

Do you know the SOP for Rangers and Armed Forces Personnel, for prayers while on duty?