Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[The Eagle]

To begin with placing the pieces of puzzle called M3 with SD-10, let's ask a few questions:

1- Where are these Mirages III are stationed?​

​

2- What's their duty role ATM?​

3- What's the Radar capability of Mirages III so far?​

​

4- How SD-10 can add an offensive punch to existing Fleet of Mirage III fighters till their time for retirement?​

5- How SD-10 with M-III can add firepower and help in active duties under threat assessment?​

​

6- What could be learning from a flight of pure delta wing loaded with SD-10 type BVR?​

​

7- What could be the detection range by adversary when a delta wing flies with active radar with SD-10 BVR?​

​

8- How can SD-10 helps Mirage III while performing current.duty roles?​

9- How a Mach 2 flying delta Mirage III can be helpful acting as a carrier platform only for BVR where mothership will do the detection and launching duty?​

​

10- is it possible to have more BVRs in the air whereby M-III will be just a fast moving carrier and rest will be done by a separate AC through Link 17?​

​

11- Can it help for learning, experiment and further studies including Delta wing BVR launch characteristics, adversary's detection behavior even they had AESA, Delta Wings with BVR and Radar on mode to note RCS, BVR launch characteristics from Mach capable platform, centerline harnessing and launch pylon validation and possiblity to validate SD-10 type BVR capability relying on AEWACS Radar detection only while outranging Radar of launch platform, in FnF mode so that xyz missile will do its own job?​

Just trying to fuel the discussion whereby knowledgeable members can share their thoughts to help us all.

Pardon for long ranting question. Using cellphone.

 

[SQ8]

To begin with placing the pieces of puzzle called M3 with SD-10, let's ask a few questions:

1- Where are these Mirages III are stationed?​

​

2- What's their duty role ATM?​

3- What's the Radar capability of Mirages III so far?​

​

4- How SD-10 can add an offensive punch to existing Fleet of Mirage III fighters till their time for retirement?​

5- How SD-10 with M-III can add firepower and help in active duties under threat assessment?​

​

6- What could be learning from a flight of pure delta wing loaded with SD-10 type BVR?​

​

7- What could be the detection range by adversary when a delta wing flies with active radar with SD-10 BVR?​

​

8- How can SD-10 helps Mirage III while performing current.duty roles?​

9- How a Mach 2 flying delta Mirage III can be helpful acting as a carrier platform only for BVR where mothership will do the detection and launching duty?​

​

10- is it possible to have more BVRs in the air whereby M-III will be just a fast moving carrier and rest will be done by a separate AC through Link 17?​

​

11- Can it help for learning, experiment and further studies including Delta wing BVR launch characteristics, adversary's detection behavior even they had AESA, Delta Wings with BVR and Radar on mode to note RCS, BVR launch characteristics from Mach capable platform, centerline harnessing and launch pylon validation and possiblity to validate SD-10 type BVR capability relying on AEWACS Radar detection only while outranging Radar of launch platform, in FnF mode so that xyz missile will do its own job?​

Just trying to fuel the discussion whereby knowledgeable members can share their thoughts to help us all.

Pardon for long ranting question. Using cellphone.

1. Will eventually be pushed to a single Mirage base as Masroor transitions to either a JF-17 -J-10base or have 1 squadron stationed there. That being said, operational deployments are very different to where the aircraft normally sits. As an e.g. since 27/2/19 IAF Su-30s have been operating more frequently from what were traditionally Bison bases since they have lost complete confidence in that platform other than for Ambush CAPS.

2. ROSE-I are primarily intercept and CAP.

3. Grifo M3 is equivalent to APG-68v2 in air to air with slightly less range.

4. With a single missile it’s probably best focused on picking out IAF strike aircraft and forcing them to dump their loads and scrub their mission. That being said, the Mirage III has always had only a single hardpoint wired capable of supporting the targeting bus for a radar guided system. When they were delivered first to the PAF Mirage III’s carried a single R-530F which could be considered a BVR weapon in a sense if launched in perfectly optimum condition (does that make the PAF the first airforce in the region to operate such a weapon? Doesn’t matter… just preempting someone claiming it pointlessly)

5. See 3.

6. Nothing - the only thing is that unlike the R-530 which had to be shot off before engaging in WVR the SD-10 can be used in that range pretry effectively

7. Same as with any other aircraft - detection range is of the emissions coming from the Grifo first. The RCS of the M3 gives it away to something like a MKI around 160km or so at 5000ft head on.

9. Not possible with the avionics - however, the ability of the delta to slip into the transonic region at low level is important because that initial kinetic push provides very good range - basically making life difficult for Indian Jaguars trying to sneak in for interdiction and strike missions at tree top.

10. Too complex and not worth it

 

[The Eagle]

@SQ8 first of all; your input adds a lot of information & knowledge to begin with. Thank you.

8- How can SD-10 helps Mirage III while performing current.duty roles?

@SQ8 may I treat your answer same as see 4? I feel that both are same questions in conclusion.

Also,

11- Can it help for learning, experiment and further studies including Delta wing BVR launch characteristics, adversary's detection behavior even they had AESA, Delta Wings with BVR and Radar on mode to note RCS, BVR launch characteristics from Mach capable platform, centerline harnessing and launch pylon validation and possiblity to validate SD-10 type BVR capability relying on AEWACS Radar detection only while outranging Radar of launch platform, in FnF mode so that xyz missile will do its own job?

This question was merely pointing towards the possibility of learning process only in regard to SD-10 on Mirage-III and not to be deployed in active duty, as some of our members pointed out.


Wanted to confirm your response on both these questions as I will compile these starters and your input like a document so may not be lost in conversation.

 

[S-A-B-E-R->]

Here is what I think, maybe it's been said here b4. M3 with sd10 means the centre line pylon can also host other Chinese equipment. EW pods for example. on 27 feb we saw how effective the EW deployment was but now a change in tactics is required in the EW tactics. from my understanding, the EW pods are not just self-protection pods but have effective zone jamming capability. A match 2 aircraft that can slip in and out of engagement zone and can provide EW umbrella to CAS or strike platforms around it seems like an ideal situation. Basically the f 18 growler type situation. SD10 incorporation is maybe a test to see how well PAF can integrate western and Chinese equipment.

 

[SQ8]

@SQ8 first of all; your input adds a lot of information & knowledge to begin with. Thank you.



@SQ8 may I treat your answer same as see 4? I feel that both are same questions in conclusion.

Also,

This question was merely pointing towards the possibility of learning process only in regard to SD-10 on Mirage-III and not to be deployed in active duty, as some of our members pointed out.


Wanted to confirm your response on both these questions as I will compile these starters and your input like a document so may not be lost in conversation.

Really isn’t an analogy to other deltas. The metrics important in BVR launches all relate to energy. The RCS calculations are two different platforms where really it has no bearing as such. The PAF Has done all of those metrics on the M3/5 aa part of a different project some 20-25 years ago.

At the end, its just the need for a strike platform which the Mirages provide. Having the SD-10 might have been a low hanging fruit which was exploited and gives a fairly potent (if limited ammo) weapon for them to use.

It also allows the PAF some leeway to use the JF-17s for stand off strike or escort missions freeing them up from CAPs

 

[m52k85]

To begin with placing the pieces of puzzle called M3 with SD-10, let's ask a few questions:

1- Where are these Mirages III are stationed?​

​

2- What's their duty role ATM?​

3- What's the Radar capability of Mirages III so far?​

​

4- How SD-10 can add an offensive punch to existing Fleet of Mirage III fighters till their time for retirement?​

5- How SD-10 with M-III can add firepower and help in active duties under threat assessment?​

​

6- What could be learning from a flight of pure delta wing loaded with SD-10 type BVR?​

​

7- What could be the detection range by adversary when a delta wing flies with active radar with SD-10 BVR?​

​

8- How can SD-10 helps Mirage III while performing current.duty roles?​

9- How a Mach 2 flying delta Mirage III can be helpful acting as a carrier platform only for BVR where mothership will do the detection and launching duty?​

​

10- is it possible to have more BVRs in the air whereby M-III will be just a fast moving carrier and rest will be done by a separate AC through Link 17?​

​

11- Can it help for learning, experiment and further studies including Delta wing BVR launch characteristics, adversary's detection behavior even they had AESA, Delta Wings with BVR and Radar on mode to note RCS, BVR launch characteristics from Mach capable platform, centerline harnessing and launch pylon validation and possiblity to validate SD-10 type BVR capability relying on AEWACS Radar detection only while outranging Radar of launch platform, in FnF mode so that xyz missile will do its own job?​

Just trying to fuel the discussion whereby knowledgeable members can share their thoughts to help us all.

Pardon for long ranting question. Using cellphone.

I would also add, how does this complicate IAF's mission planning and response? How do they respond when they see a flight of Mirages on their Early Warning ground/ air radars? Mind you radars cann't tell Mirage ROSE I apart from all other Mirages in PAF inventory. Do they still assume they can scramble Mig-21s to deal with such a flight?

If we can understand the answers to these questions we can understand the capability multiplication such an integration brings. Hell, I wouldnt be surprised if Major Panzer breaks the same news on PGs next.

7. Same as with any other aircraft - detection range is of the emissions coming from the Grifo first. The RCS of the M3 gives it away to something like a MKI around 160km or so at 5000ft head on.

Only if the Grifo is always emitting. I dont think thats a fair assumption.

 

[HRK]

IF I am not wrong it was Mirage jet which lured Abhinandan into Pakistan he was trying to shoot down the Mirage which was returning back to Pakistan after successfully guiding the H-4 glide weapon.

So in this case we can understand that our Mirage Jets were toothless against the incoming MiG-21 interception package and was saved only by the launch of AIM-120 from F-16 which was flying CAP near LOC, therefore this attempt of integrating SD-10 with Mirage might be the lesson PAF learned after analysing the events of 27 Feb, 2019. This is where we should focus in our discussion related to the integration of SD-10 with Mirage jets.

BUT in this scenario the question which still I can not comprehend is:

The Centerline hardpoint of the Mirage Jet is the only hardpoint which could carry H-2/H-4 and its guidance and communication pod so if SD-10 is also integrated on centerline than how its is useful .... ???

We could either carry guidance & communication pod or SD-10 BVR on the centerline hardpoint of the Mirage strike team, keep in mind the employment of H-series weapon take two Mirage Jets one for the launch of H-2/H-4 and second for the guidance of H-series weapon. This leave no space for SD-10 on centerline hard point, on the reverse of this guidance/communication pod would have to be left If SD-10 is to be carried on that hardpoint.

I am really getting more confused thinking on this lines.

 

[Talon]

IF I am not wrong it was Mirage jet which lured Abhinandan into Pakistan he was trying to shoot down the Mirage which was returning back to Pakistan after successfully guiding the H-4 glide weapon.

So in this case we can understand that our Mirage Jets were toothless against the incoming MiG-21 interception package and was saved only by the launch of AIM-120 from F-16 which was flying CAP near LOC, therefore this attempt of integrating SD-10 with Mirage might be the lesson PAF learned after analysing the events of 27 Feb, 2019. This is where we should focus in our discussion related to the integration of SD-10 with Mirage jets.

BUT in this scenario the question which still I can not comprehend is:

The Centerline hardpoint of the Mirage Jet is the only hardpoint which could carry H-2/H-4 and its guidance and communication pod so if SD-10 is also integrated on centerline than how its is useful .... ???

We could either carry guidance & communication pod or SD-10 BVR on the centerline hardpoint of the Mirage strike team, keep in mind the employment of H-series weapon take two Mirage Jets one for the launch of H-2/H-4 and second for the guidance of H-series weapon. This leave no space for SD-10 on centerline hard point, on the reverse of this guidance/communication pod would have to be left If SD-10 is to be carried on that hardpoint.

I am really getting more confused thinking on this lines.

If and only if PAF wants to give BVR capability to Mirages in the light of 27 Feb events, then it makes sense to first make sure this ft is achievable or not. Which as per OPs claim has been achieved. PAF can then move on to upgrading HPs on wings and make them capable to carry and host BVR missiles. So doing initial testing on center line makes sense instead of wiring the wing HPs and then testing if it's achievable or not.

But yes a lot of factors like cost would need to be considered as well.

Anyways, in a what if scenario of PAF being able to operationalize SD-10 on Mirage's wings HPs, this loadout could be promising and fill some gaps :
2 SD-10
2 DPTs
1 H4/Pod

Someone here on the forum said that PAF plans to keep Mirages flying till 2038 ( not sure if it was a pun? ) .. in that case this project makes sense.. No?

P.s These are just my thoughts.. I am not even aware if wing HPs can be wired for this purpose or not.

 

[PanzerKiel]

If and only if PAF wants to give BVR capability to Mirages in the light of 27 Feb events, then it makes sense to first make sure this ft is achievable or not. Which as per OPs claim has been achieved. PAF can then move on to upgrading HPs on wings and make them capable to carry and host BVR missiles. So doing initial testing on center line makes sense instead of wiring the wing HPs and then testing if it's achievable or not.

But yes a lot of factors like cost would need to be considered as well.

Anyways, in a what if scenario of PAF being able to operationalize SD-10 on Mirage's wings HPs, this loadout could be promising and fill some gaps :
2 SD-10
2 DPTs
1 H4/Pod

Someone here on the forum said that PAF plans to keep Mirages flying till 2038 .. in that case this project makes sense.. to me atleast.

P.s These are just my thoughts.. I am not even aware if wing HPs can be wired for this purpose or not.

Present ones have been configured for 1 SD10, 2 DPTs, 2 AIM9s.

 

[Talon]

Also, are Ghazis equipped with Rose-1?

Present ones have been configured for 1 SD10, 2 DPTs, 2 AIM9s.

Yes but I am talking about a strike package loadout as @HRK mentioned 27th February events.

The loadout you mentioned is totally AA config and imo PAF doesn't need that . F-16 ,J-10 and JF-17 can already do that job effectively.

To me, the issue is vulnerability of Mirages so making them capable enough to not totally relay on escort/sweep needs to be addressed.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Also, are Ghazis equipped with Rose-1?

7 mirage squadrons
7 squadron ROSE 1
CCS Mirage squadron ROSE 1
8 squadron NON ROSE
15 squadron (now 50 squadron as 15 cobras will be J10 now) NON ROSE
22 squadron NON ROSE
25 squadron ROSE 2
27 squadron ROSE 3

Al

The loadout you mentioned is totally AA config and imo PAF doesn't need that .

There is a special need which has freshly come up. Lets wait for another 27 Feb.

 

[Talon]

7 mirage squadrons
7 squadron ROSE 1
CCS Mirage squadron ROSE 1
8 squadron NON ROSE
15 squadron (now 50 squadron as 15 cobras will be J10 now) NON ROSE
22 squadron NON ROSE
25 squadron ROSE 2
27 squadron ROSE 3


There is a special need which has freshly come up. Lets wait for another 27 Feb.

So both H weapon equipped squadrons are Non ROSE .. hmmm , my what if scenario doesn't make sense then lol , unless PAF makes some changes in deployments.

 

[Gripen9]

If the Grifo-M / SD-10 mating works, better would be to interface with Grio-7 on PGs. A PG armed with 2xAim9L, 2xSD-10 will give any incomming Jag or M2k a headache.

 

[JamD]

If the Grifo-M / SD-10 mating works, better would be to interface with Grio-7 on PGs. A PG armed with 2xAim9L, 2xSD-10 will give any incomming Jag or M2k a headache.

The Grifo-M is able to look much further out than the Grifo-7. @PanzerKiel has said that the SD-10 has been mated to the radar so it wouldn't just be fired in active mode and thus limited range of the Grifo-7 probably limits the utility of an SD-10 on it.

 

[Gripen9]

The Grifo-M is able to look much further out than the Grifo-7. @PanzerKiel has said that the SD-10 has been mated to the radar so it wouldn't just be fired in active mode and thus limited range of the Grifo-7 probably limits the utility of an SD-10 on it.

Yes you are right. Grifo-7 is a smaller radar. But how much is the tracking range variance? PGs are very potent knife fighters with decent airframe life on them.