Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[randomradio]

The recent event of February 2019 have demonstrated the PAF need to stay capable of engaging in not only air to air combat but air to ground strike, with the threat of enemy air defense ever present. After this brief but eventful episode, the humiliated Indians have re-doubled their plans to acquire modern air defenses, as well as modern war planes. The PAF has always sought to maintain the qualitative edge with better pilot training and exchange programs with friendly air forces. Despite this, there comes a point where our well trained pilots need an aircraft that is at least adequate enough to allow our pilots to face modern threats and still complete its mission. The mirage III and V of the PAF are still better suited for the strike role then the more modern JF-17, if only for their ability to carry heavier loads.

Due to the current economic crisis, the PAF will continue to rely on these aircraft to carry out strikes in time of conflict. In order to assure it will be able to do so in the face of the S-400 and Rafale Fighters, the PAF should consider upgrading these planes soon. The recent purchase of 30 Mirage Vs from Egypt includes a few Horus Mirages. These were upgraded in 2008-2010 with the following features:

A modern Pulse Doppler radar (RC-400)
HMD
Mission pods
MAWS
Night strike capability (visible and infrared optronics)
modern avionics overhaul (hopefully this includes a modern mission computer and modern glass cockpit)
inertial navigation equipement
on board and ground-based digital processing systems (for weapon systems and mission planning systems, respectively)


This is a decent upgrade package, but the PAF may need capabilities beyond these to allow the planes to stay relevant for the next 20 years. It should consider implementing the following on all flight-worthy mirages in its fleet:

Structural improvements (fixed canard and zeroing the air frame while strengthening the wings by selective use of composites)
Upgrading the engine (from the Atar-9c to not just the Atar9K50 but the Super Atar)
A Modern EW suite to include a modern jamming pod
A modern CNI suite (communication, Navigation, Identification) with modern Datalinks
single piece front canopy for better visibility
HOTAS
as well as other upgrades featured on the Cheetah and similar aircraft like the Kfir Block 60

Pakistan's good relations with Denel of South Africa, and it would make it a lot easier to approach them to consultant on applying these upgrades to our mirages in short order. Denel has gone through all the R&D, and even have aircraft in mothballs ready to sell. It behooves the PAF to look into it. PAF already has has the engine maintenance facilities at Kamra ready to do the upgrades on the Atar (https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/engi...ost-1942255)(https://www.pac.org.pk/atar.html), and it has trained technicians waiting for work. We have a mirage rebuild facility, so we can carry out air-frame upgrades in house. Also this would be a great project for Pakistan to work on right away at the joint Sino-Pak Aviation city. We could make the compressor blades for the upgraded engines, the radars, avionics, pods, EW equipment, communication equipment, HMD, and all other small components, all in Pakistan. Upgrading nearly 200 planes, along with maintaining the JF-17s will keep Kamra going for the next 10 years, all allowing skills to be built up while we transition to project AZM.

Upgrading 25% of the Fleet to house the air cooled LKF601E AESA radar will allow these strike planes to use the radars ground mapping capabilities to not only fly safely under enemy radar and over terrain, but to positively identify enemy targets quickly and get battle damage assessments in one pass. The Aesa Radar would allow the mirage to have EW support when operating alone and facing down enemy air defenses (Sams and aircraft). The remainder of the fleet can house the KLJ-7 radars coming off the JF-17s being upgraded with the LKF601E AESA radar, and allow the PAF to not waste perfectly good radars. Datalinks would share data from the Aesa equipped aircraft to their non-Aesa teammates.

Finally, another major upgrade that we should implement is modernizing the engine. The engine doesn't need to be replaced, but components can be swapped out for more modern ones to increase the thrust significantly. The current Atar-9C on the PAF mirage has a max thrust of 59KN while the mirage 2000's M53 engine has a max thrust of 95kn. The PAF could re-engine the plane with the RD-93/Ws-13 or even the WS-19 under development, but that would slow down upgrades and cost huge amounts (not to mention the South Africans tried on a Russian engine similar to the Rd-93 and failed to make it work). While not nearly as powerful, simply upgrading the engine is a more cost effective manner of reaching close to the thrust of the modern turbofans. The south Africans upgraded their Atar-9C to the Atar-9K50 standard and achieved a max thrust of 70kn. On one experimental aircraft they went one step further, and implemented the Super Atar upgrade, where it is said they saw a further 12% increase in thrust; 78 kn. This is a nearly 33% increase in thrust, and would allow these upgraded mirages to carry heavier loads and go further; so they can strike deeper and harder then ever before.

An upgrade of this magnitude would give the PAF as much breathing room in the A2G role as the JF-17 has given in the A2A role. Securing this capability in house would buy the nation time to build up its economy without skimping on defense.

I don't believe PAF Mirages have much life left in them now.

 

[FuturePAF]

Thank you; we were looking for this back 20+ yrs back.

unfortunately the time is long gone and complete opportunities a long lost dream. Truly breaks my heart even today what could have been....

While its not the ideal solution, if it can be done for a relatively modest sum the PAF should still consider it. the alternative is either buying a small number of J-10CEs for the price of modernizing the entire Mirage Fleet. Either way, we are looking for a stop gap until Project AZM creates a platform that the PAF can hopefully afford when it becomes available.

I don't believe PAF Mirages have much life left in them now.

Hence the need to rebuild those that can be rebuilt, to keep up fighter/bomber numbers. While we are rebuilding using the Egyptian mirages for canalization, we might as well upgrade them so they can stay relevant, until we can afford to replace them.

Pakistan should be planning to retire the Mirages, forget upgrades.

I too wish we could retire the mirages, and buy J-10CEs, but we don't have the funds. At the same time, the threat is only getting worse, so we need to look for affordable ways to manage the threat.

 

[ANG]

Hi, I wanted to add a couple of points to the excellent post by Mr. FuturePAF. The following link covers the first in three articles on the upgrade of Mirages by the South African Air Force. I posted this link quite a few years ago.

https://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2011/06/weekend-wings-39-south-africas-franken.html?m=1

A key takeaway is that the SMR-95, the precursor to the RD93 engine, was fitted to Mirage 3 and F1 aircraft. The issue was cost, lack of interest by clients and slight center of gravity issues (which could easily be rectified). The combat potential of these prototype planes increased dramatically.

I also specifically remember reading in an issue of Aviation Week and Space Technology in the 90s, that Pakistan was interested in reengining their Mirages and had spoken to South Africa about this topic. Moreover, relations with Russia are much better now, than they were back in 90s, when the cool war had just ended.

In addition, South Africa in their Cheetah upgrade zeroed the hours on the airframe and even added a small insert to the fuselage between the cockpit and air intakes, and lengthened the nose of the plane. South Africa even tested out an advanced combat wing with flaps and wing tip missile stations.

A complete remake of the PAF Mirages is possible, but the issue is cost. However, the planes coming out will have a zero hours airframe and huge comat improvement. Thanks!

 

[randomradio]

Hence the need to rebuild those that can be rebuilt, to keep up fighter/bomber numbers. While we are rebuilding using the Egyptian mirages for canalization, we might as well upgrade them so they can stay relevant, until we can afford to replace them.

The oldest Egyptian Mirage V is from 1975 and the newest from 1983. The rest of the Mirage III/V fleet in PAF was built in the 70s. So the newest aircraft is already more than 35 years old, whereas a large chunk of the fleet is already more than 45 years old. The oldest is, I believe, 52 years old now.

Last I heard, the entire fleet is to be phased out between 2025 and 2030. With such a small window, an upgrade is not feasible. You might be able to manage if you get at least 2 squadrons that were built post 80s though, which may survive up to 2035, but the cost of operating such a small fleet could make it unrealistic.

It increasingly looks like your best hope would be to absorb more second hand F-16s, and of course, the JF-17.

 

[FuturePAF]

The oldest Egyptian Mirage V is from 1975 and the newest from 1983. The rest of the Mirage III/V fleet in PAF was built in the 70s. So the newest aircraft is already more than 35 years old, whereas a large chunk of the fleet is already more than 45 years old. The oldest is, I believe, 52 years old now.

Last I heard, the entire fleet is to be phased out between 2025 and 2030. With such a small window, an upgrade is not feasible. You might be able to manage if you get at least 2 squadrons that were built post 80s though, which may survive up to 2035, but the cost of operating such a small fleet could make it unrealistic.

It increasingly looks like your best hope would be to absorb more second hand F-16s, and of course, the JF-17.

The reason I bring it up, is because PAF is buying second hand mirages and therefore plans to keep at least a portion of the fleet going. The need for a dedicated strike fighter/bomber is still there, and while used F-16s are ideal, they would be prioritized for the A2A role when and if they became available. The JF-17 would be great but it flys slower and has a lower weapons load.

The PAF has the mirage rebuild factory and Atar engine overhaul facility at Kamra. It may turn out they only upgrade a smaller portion of the fleet, as we did with the Rose Mirages, but we need the capability and need to cover it with our limited budget.

If the PAF can afford it, re-engineing the planes with the Rd-93/WS-13 would be better, but we can save money and time just upgrading the components of the Atar to the Super Atar standard. If we carry out these upgrades and have at least 3 squadrons available in the next 3-5 years, and they serve until 2035, then we will have had modern capabilities and can invest that money in other projects like Project AZM, without sacrificing capability.

3 Squadrons would be decent enough if you consider the IAF trusts its Mirage 2000s for the Strike role and they operate the same number: 3 Squadrons of Mirages.

P.S. A lot of the components for the upgrade will be those used in the JF-17 program. We will no longer have to buy French weapons. When these air frames are no longer flight-worthy their components (radar, EW equipement, comms, etc.) can be swapped into another second hand Mirage, and ultimately as spares for the JF-17s.

 

[denel]

The reason I bring it up, is because PAF is buying second hand mirages and therefore plans to keep at least a portion of the fleet going. The need for a dedicated strike fighter/bomber is still there, and while used F-16s are ideal, they would be prioritized for the A2A role when and if they became available. The JF-17 would be great but it flys slower and has a lower weapons load.

The PAF has the mirage rebuild factory and Atar engine overhaul facility at Kamra. It may turn out they only upgrade a smaller portion of the fleet, as we did with the Rose Mirages, but we need the capability and need to cover it with our limited budget.

If the PAF can afford it, re-engineing the planes with the Rd-93/WS-13 would be better, but we can save money and time just upgrading the components of the Atar to the Super Atar standard. If we carry out these upgrades and have at least 3 squadrons available in the next 3-5 years, and they serve until 2035, then we will have had modern capabilities and can invest that money in other projects like Project AZM, without sacrificing capability.

3 Squadrons would be decent enough if you consider the IAF trusts its Mirage 2000s for the Strike role and they operate the same number: 3 Squadrons of Mirages.

P.S. A lot of the components for the upgrade will be those used in the JF-17 program. We will no longer have to buy French weapons. When these air frames are no longer flight-worthy their components (radar, EW equipement, comms, etc.) can be swapped into another second hand Mirage, and ultimately as spares for the JF-17s.

Friend, your desire is well understood but if it was done 20yrs back when a lot of input was being given by Atlas to Kamra including secure comms/datalink + IFRs + SoW retrofitting; this was laid out but we can only hypothesis why they chose not to go the Cheetah route. It would have resulted in overall successful platform even if it meant 60% were converted over or shall i say re-built over with a newer 9k50 engine.

 

[FuturePAF]

Friend, your desire is well understood but if it was done 20yrs back when a lot of input was being given by Atlas to Kamra including secure comms/datalink + IFRs + SoW retrofitting; this was laid out but we can only hypothesis why they chose not to go the Cheetah route. It would have resulted in overall successful platform even if it meant 60% were converted over or shall i say re-built over with a newer 9k50 engine.

Good Point, but what prevents Denel, on their part, from consulting on a modest upgrade program for a few squadrons of the PAF mirage fleet. With current electronics being a lot cheaper then 20 years ago and avionics work being done in house for the JF-17, wouldn't a relatively basic upgrade program keep our fleet relevant for the next 10-15 years for only a modest sum?

Do you think the PAF believes these mirages are no longer worth upgrading? That they are saving up money to buy used Mirage 2000s from Gulf Arab allies or new J-10CEs from China?

 

[The Accountant]

Good Point, but what prevents Denel, on their part, from consulting on a modest upgrade program for a few squadrons of the PAF mirage fleet. With current electronics being a lot cheaper then 20 years ago and avionics work being done in house for the JF-17, wouldn't a relatively basic upgrade program keep our fleet relevant for the next 10-15 years for only a modest sum?

Do you think the PAF believes these mirages are no longer worth upgrading? That they are saving up money to buy used Mirage 2000s from Gulf Arab allies or new J-10CEs from China?

No ... first of all airframes r really old so r risky from failure point of view ... secondly they use turbo jet engines which r fuel hungry ... last but not the least new avionics means alot of integration and testing of new weapon systems which will take at minimum 3 to4 years ... cost will be much higher than the benefits

 

[FuturePAF]

No ... first of all airframes r really old so r risky from failure point of view ... secondly they use turbo jet engines which r fuel hungry ... last but not the least new avionics means alot of integration and testing of new weapon systems which will take at minimum 3 to4 years ... cost will be much higher than the benefits

We have the experience of the Rose Mirages and have acquired the Horus Mirages from Egypt. The key upgrades to maximize performance for the least cost are the radar, EW equipement, Night strike capability (visible and infrared optronics) in the form of an advanced targeting pod, a helmet mounted display, and MAWS. In order to get the full benefits we need to at least reach the upgrades the Horus mirages have achieved; modern avionics overhaul (hopefully this includes a modern mission computer and modern glass cockpit), inertial navigation equipement on board and ground-based digital processing systems (for weapon systems and mission planning systems, respectively)

We don't need to rehabilitate the entire fleet but should focus on the 3-4 squadrons worth of the best air frames. We should integrate the used KLJ-7 radars from the Block I and II JF-17s being upgraded with the LKF601E AESA from China. We can add a modern EW jamming pod to at least 25% of the air craft in each squadron, The Aselpod targetting pod for another 25% of the fleet, HMD so that pilots get the avionics data directly on their helmets, and MAWs sensors so they can avoid getting shot down.

As far as the avionics work, after studying the Horus Mirages, we could start a rushed program along with the Chinese avionics manufacturers to quickly integrate the upgrade. 3-4 years would mean avionics we have never tested, but I'm suggesting we integrate the same avionics developed for the JF-17. Hopefully we could get a prototype up and flying within 12-18 months of the start of such a program, and start upgrading mirages within 24 months of the start of the program. If we did a dozen aircraft a year (similar to JF-17 production rates), we could have 3 full strength squadrons at the end of the 6th year of the decision to start such a program.

Our pilots are trained on the mirages, and can train on the Horus mirages to get the feel of what the final products will look like. If the PAF feels it needs more planes, it can keep acquiring or refurbishing its own planes to continue at 12 planes a year. Along side 12 JF-17s produced a year, we would have two production lines running, keeping our fighter numbers strong enough till we can afford to replace the mirages.

 

[ssethii]

They will surely be upgraded beyond Cheetah standard anyway.

MRF would push life of these airframes to their maximum limits

 

[The Accountant]

We have the experience of the Rose Mirages and have acquired the Horus Mirages from Egypt. The key upgrades to maximize performance for the least cost are the radar, EW equipement, Night strike capability (visible and infrared optronics) in the form of an advanced targeting pod, a helmet mounted display, and MAWS. In order to get the full benefits we need to at least reach the upgrades the Horus mirages have achieved; modern avionics overhaul (hopefully this includes a modern mission computer and modern glass cockpit), inertial navigation equipement on board and ground-based digital processing systems (for weapon systems and mission planning systems, respectively)

We don't need to rehabilitate the entire fleet but should focus on the 3-4 squadrons worth of the best air frames. We should integrate the used KLJ-7 radars from the Block I and II JF-17s being upgraded with the LKF601E AESA from China. We can add a modern EW jamming pod to at least 25% of the air craft in each squadron, The Aselpod targetting pod for another 25% of the fleet, HMD so that pilots get the avionics data directly on their helmets, and MAWs sensors so they can avoid getting shot down.

As far as the avionics work, after studying the Horus Mirages, we could start a rushed program along with the Chinese avionics manufacturers to quickly integrate the upgrade. 3-4 years would mean avionics we have never tested, but I'm suggesting we integrate the same avionics developed for the JF-17. Hopefully we could get a prototype up and flying within 12-18 months of the start of such a program, and start upgrading mirages within 24 months of the start of the program. If we did a dozen aircraft a year (similar to JF-17 production rates), we could have 3 full strength squadrons at the end of the 6th year of the decision to start such a program.

Our pilots are trained on the mirages, and can train on the Horus mirages to get the feel of what the final products will look like. If the PAF feels it needs more planes, it can keep acquiring or refurbishing its own planes to continue at 12 planes a year. Along side 12 JF-17s produced a year, we would have two production lines running, keeping our fighter numbers strong enough till we can afford to replace the mirages.

The systems u mentioned cost half of the aircraft ... mirrage engines r outdated ...
Airframes r weak and also not very expensive as compared to cost of whole aircraft ...

 

[FuturePAF]

The systems u mentioned cost half of the aircraft ... mirrage engines r outdated ...
Airframes r weak and also not very expensive as compared to cost of whole aircraft ...

How many air frames do you suppose are still flight worthy to survive another 10-15 years? This is the real question that needs to be asked. Beyond this number, we know will need to be replaced. For the flight worthy air frames left, If we can at least swap the radar for the KLJ-7 from the JF-17 Block I and II about to get upgraded to the LKE601E Aesa, we can save on the cost of the Radar. Add 4 EW pods per squadron and 4 modern targeting pods per squadron and you have a decent enough force to carry on the strike role.

Like I said earlier, If we had the money I would like to see all the Mirages replaced with J-10CE on a one for one basis, but that isn't going to happen unless we find out we have actually discovered huge oil reserves, or the economy dramatically recovers in the next 3-4 years. I agree that after a certain point the fatigue on an air-frame makes the aircraft beyond hope.

 

[denel]

How many air frames do you suppose are still flight worthy to survive another 10-15 years? This is the real question that needs to be asked. Beyond this number, we know will need to be replaced. For the flight worthy air frames left, If we can at least swap the radar for the KLJ-7 from the JF-17 Block I and II about to get upgraded to the LKE601E Aesa, we can save on the cost of the Radar. Add 4 EW pods per squadron and 4 modern targeting pods per squadron and you have a decent enough force to carry on the strike role.

Like I said earlier, If we had the money I would like to see all the Mirages replaced with J-10CE on a one for one basis, but that isn't going to happen unless we find out we have actually discovered huge oil reserves, or the economy dramatically recovers in the next 3-4 years. I agree that after a certain point the fatigue on an air-frame makes the aircraft beyond hope.

It is all about ROI. Right now, there is no appetite to keep Mirages affloat but it is from what i gather lack of funds overall but still there is no credible option for SOW carriers; only exception being Jh-7 which we keep on being scoffed at. While ROSE added better capabilities it did not address the core airframe/engine challenges.

 

[M.AsfandYar]

I don't believe PAF Mirages have much life left in them now.

Fortunately, your disbelief is irrelevant.

It is all about ROI. Right now, there is no appetite to keep Mirages affloat but it is from what i gather lack of funds overall but still there is no credible option for SOW carriers; only exception being Jh-7 which we keep on being scoffed at. While ROSE added better capabilities it did not address the core airframe/engine challenges.

Hence the new purchase. PAF plans to keep them in air till the very last moment.
Though as people keep talking about upgrades. That truly does make no sense. The new purchase is purely for cannibalization.

 

[SQ8]

It is all about ROI. Right now, there is no appetite to keep Mirages affloat but it is from what i gather lack of funds overall but still there is no credible option for SOW carriers; only exception being Jh-7 which we keep on being scoffed at. While ROSE added better capabilities it did not address the core airframe/engine challenges.

JH-7 was evaluated and found to be lacking in terms of a RoI.
The Mirages are extremely customizable after the JF-17 and so far the only ones qualified for Raptor carriage.