Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[CriticalThought]

Only in a dive brother, in level flight its hard pressed as it is.

I don't disagree with that, but I still wonder... it's been a while since KT tested it in dive mode. PAC has a full overhaul facility for the SNECMA. Have they made any mods? Who knows. I'm just speculating.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Mach-2 is possible for a limited time only in certain diving maneuver from the point of service ceiling in clean configuration.

This was confirmed by Kaiser Tufail in one of his blog related to his flying of Mirage at Mach-2

Yep, actually even in the shows aired in the past few days the Mach 2 was the aspect raised by the hosts but one of the pilots mentioned the instantaneous turn rate while the other talked about the acceleration at low levels.

 

[Blacklight]

I totally understand brother, and I grieve for every one of our shaheeds. Inna Lillahi Wa Inna Iliahi Raji'oon.

But I also grieve when my countrymen have no problems with the USAF upgrading 50 year old B-52s to keep them flying, yet don't like PAF doing the same with Mirages. The PAF holds them for good reasons, I am sure everyone will agree.

In the program aired a few days ago about the Mirages, the pilots were absolutely raving about it. And I tend to agree, it is truly unique in the capabilities it provides. They practice air combat, so if push comes to shove, they can definitely defend themselves. In a WVR fight, the Mirage is no slouch if proper energy management is followed. Also, they will be used in stand-off configuration, so they may not even see an aerial fight, and may not need top cover.

As far as jamming is concerned, the textbook approach to deal with it is to first take out the jammers. You would do that for any remotely guided stand-off weapon, even if deployed from F-35.

Finally, the distance of stand-off weapons increases with the altitude of the deploying aircraft and its speed. The Mirages are perfect for developing strategies to deploy weapons at supersonic speeds. They have their solid build going for them. Once deployed, if you create sat link, they can guide the weapon from a lower altitude thus avoiding radar detection.

But I also grieve when my countrymen have no problems with the USAF upgrading 50 year old B-52s to keep them flying, yet don't like PAF doing the same with Mirages.

You are comparing bombers to front line fighter aircrafts? Ones that come into play when SEAD / DEAD has been achieved?

No point in me continuing this debate with you. Disengaging now.

 

[Talon]

Why so much debate about Mach 2? Aircrafts can achieve Mach 2 even at 350kts, its all about the angles aircraft is flying at, so what's the big deal? And what will Mach 2 achieve you any ways? If the aircraft is inbound for a mission Mach 2 won't be recommended anyhow

Concern should be about the replacement of Mirages and making JF-17 compatible with Raptor bombs and RAAD.

You are comparing bombers to front line fighter aircrafts? Ones that come into play when SEAD / DEAD has been achieved?

No point in me continuing this debate with you. Disengaging now.

Even though PAF has implemented SEAD/DEAD profiles but we have yet to see it in action, which I really am desperate to see

 

[CriticalThought]

You are comparing bombers to front line fighter aircrafts? Ones that come into play when SEAD / DEAD has been achieved?

No point in me continuing this debate with you. Disengaging now.

Please, feel free to make a quick exit. But your initial complaint about the Mirages was that they are 'disintegrating in mid-air', not that they will disintegrate during combat. In that respect, the comparison with B-52s is quite relevant.

If you are trying to say that Mirage airframes are not worthy for the stresses of air to air combat, that is a serious allegation against PAF. And one that is highly doubtful given the manufacturing facilities now available in PAC. They can re-create the entire structure of the aircraft if needed. And even here, the comparison with B-52 remains relevant because the total amount of stresses generated in a light combat aircraft at supersonic speeds are still less than the stresses in a strategic bomber at max take-off capacity. These are the characteristics of the B-52:

Boeing B-52 Stratofortress - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

• Empty weight: 185,000 lb (83,250 kg)
• Gross weight: 265,000 lb (120,000 kg)
• Max takeoff weight: 488,000 lb (219,600 kg)

The 50 year old B-52 airframe needs to tolerate forces generated from that type of load. These are the characteristics of the Mirage

Dassault Mirage III - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

• Empty weight: 7,050 kg (15,543 lb)
• Gross weight: 9,600 kg (21,164 lb)
• Max takeoff weight: 13,700 kg (30,203 lb)

Even if we imagine the Mirage pulling 9 Gs (which it isn't even designed for), the equivalent max weight would be 9 * 13,700 = 123,300 kg equivalent weight (NOTE: The word 'weight' is being used in these sentences to give an idea of the equivalent G-forces that will be acting on the airframe). That is below the empty weight of the B-52.

 

[Blacklight]

Please, feel free to make a quick exit.

I have absolutely zero interest in indulging in speculation and conjectures. Please feel free to continue with your hypothesis.

 

[Reichmarshal]

I don't disagree with that, but I still wonder... it's been a while since KT tested it in dive mode. PAC has a full overhaul facility for the SNECMA. Have they made any mods? Who knows. I'm just speculating.

I'd like to correct that to....."may be in a dive".
The last time that it did so was on the 27th of feb 99.

 

[Abid123]

Can somebody explain why PAF bought such a huge number of Mirages back in the days? Like 250+ Mirages? What was the point of buying so many?

 

[Yasser76]

Can somebody explain why PAF bought such a huge number of Mirages back in the days? Like 250+ Mirages? What was the point of buying so many?

Because the IAF was literally 3 times our size.

 

[Keysersoze]

Can somebody explain why PAF bought such a huge number of Mirages back in the days? Like 250+ Mirages? What was the point of buying so many?

They bought them over time (since the 1960's) and some were just for spare parts (The Libyan deal was for 50 planes and 150 engine IIRC. The Australian deal was for 50 planes)

 

[SQ8]

The mirage is still one of the finest attack platforms available due to the inherent low level stability of the delta due to wing loading factors.
However, the airframe age is beginning to show more and more which unless there is a complete reproduction of the aircraft from the ground up
will remain a life taker.

Wonder why there isn’t a Kfir type rerun done with them? Budget aside doing a Cheetah or Kfir type program would have given the PAF a potent strike fighter. But then economies of scale would have pushed the unit price above $65 million incl amortized costs of the R&D so it was probably better to buy off the shelf.

 

[khanasifm]

They bought them over time (since the 1960's) and some were just for spare parts (The Libyan deal was for 50 planes and 150 engine IIRC. The Australian deal was for 50 planes)

Per paf history book it was over 70ish only dual seaters recovered less than 10ish rest all going to spares why you have mirages still good for next decade or so

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The mirage is still one of the finest attack platforms available due to the inherent low level stability of the delta due to wing loading factors.
However, the airframe age is beginning to show more and more which unless there is a complete reproduction of the aircraft from the ground up
will remain a life taker.

Wonder why there isn’t a Kfir type rerun done with them? Budget aside doing a Cheetah or Kfir type program would have given the PAF a potent strike fighter. But then economies of scale would have pushed the unit price above $65 million incl amortized costs of the R&D so it was probably better to buy off the shelf.

I think this may boil down to 2 issues: (1) the PAF itself didn't expect the Mirage III/5 to endure for this long and (2) the PAF didn't foresee its air-launched strike capabilities evolving to the extent that it did in the last 10-15 years. Generally, a SOW strike was likely a very limited (in scale) tool, but now, large-scale SOW employment is a difference-maker that could buy the PAF valuable time and space in a conflict. The current ASR of the NGFA clearly asks for a very capable strike platform. IMO, "deep strike" (via SOW, large platforms, etc) will be the new "next thing" the PAF will seek moving forward (as it had for BVR a couple decades back).

If the PAF could run it back, I think it would have pursued a Cheetah-type project back in the mid-1990s (instead of ROSE) across 100+ airframes so as to build a large deep-strike capability.

 

[ziaulislam]

There's still no replacement for Mirage's role...

J10 is..can carry same payload at same distance or more..
Startegic part should be given to jf17/raad2 combo

 

[Chak Bamu]

I'd like to correct that to....."may be in a dive".
The last time that it did so was on the 27th of feb 99.

Yes, it was not a dive. The advise Kaisar Tufail sb followed to achieve Mach 2 in a Mirage Functional Check Flight was as follows - from his blog:

"Cerveau, who knew his job well, had a little laugh at my brute force approach and, with a nationalistic slant to his explanation, told me how the French do it. “You climb at the optimum speed to the tropopause[4], the altitude of which varies with ambient surface temperature; you will have to calculate it accordingly. Then, accelerate to Mach 1.6 while maintaining altitude. After reaching this speed, put the aircraft in a very shallow dive till you reach Mach 1.8. Next, gently raise the nose a few degrees above the horizon and maintain it there. You will see the Mach-meter registering a steady rise while still in a climb. On a cold day, you will hit Mach 2 or even beyond, before you reach the aircraft ceiling of 50,000 ft above mean sea level (AMSL)."