Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[messiach]

Well there was a definite sabotage attempt by internal saboteurs to derail turbine development. Even till last year with mohmand dam, the interest was to purchase OTC solution for HETs. Some houndfaces lit up. & I, as per usual gave a surruptous welcome to the hounds. Apart from IK, i dont think anyone would like to see me back.

The truth is always in the middle. I'm aware, first hand, of conceit/arrogance in some circles (e.g., we tend to make fun of the Turks for some reason, even though they by whatever means are moving ahead, while we haven't).

But I also know of situations where well-meaning PAF efforts were shut down by the US and/or India, e.g., the attempt to buy MBDA & Thales equipment for the JF-17.

Likewise, the M2K/-5 drama can't be reduced to avoiding corruption, I think the fact that Paris wouldn't extend a line-of-credit also played a huge role. There were even efforts for Airbus MRTTs from Europe that got shut down by external pressures on vendors. I think the 1-2 bad apples within seem a lot bigger than they are when you're up against a lot of external pressures.

That said, I do hope we adapt our SOWs for the JF-17. As we've said dozens of times already, if the Ra'ad/II can't fit on the JF-17, then we should figure out a way to make it fit, even if it means creating a new Ra'ad variant.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Getting back to topic. Does anyone know the status of our mirage purchase from Egypt, and possible purchase of mirage 3S from Switzerland?

I'd reckon we'll find out about the Egypt one when (1) when the PAF announces/shows off the planes or (2) when the PAF tells someone at the Dubai Air Show that the deal didn't work out. For now, I'd say the program is actually in progress and, hopefully, (1) will materialize sooner than later.

Well there was a definite sabotage attempt by internal saboteurs to derail turbine development. Even till last year with mohmand dam, the interest was to purchase OTC solution for HETs. Some houndfaces lit up. & I, as per usual gave a surruptous welcome to the hounds. Apart from IK, i dont think anyone would like to see me back.

Indeed. Even if we can't pair gas turbine, semi-conductor, metallurgy, etc to defence, we could've at least let the civilian side of those technologies excel. In that case, we'd have high-value exports to drive-up our hard currency reserves, which we can then use towards defence imports (much like Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, etc).

The other issue is that we didn't leverage defence imports well enough. When it bought arms, not only did Germany require near 100% offsets, but it forced the OEM to drive offset investment to German R&D in critical tech.

To this day, we're punching below our weight. We have a market of 200 m people; how on earth are the likes of Toyota, Honda, etc getting away with CKD/SKD assembly? Why aren't we forcing them to undertake turnkey manufacturing and 51%+ local materials sourcing?

Unfortunately, we've gone way beyond complacency and corruption. It's like low level, short term gains that are pennies vs what other nationals do, yet causes maximum damage to Pakistan. Like, you can do the kind of corruption where you manipulate another country's markets for personal gain, yet our guys prefer manipulating their own home market and earn 1/100 of what they could had they done it elsewhere. It's baffling.

 

[denel]

forget the atlas. think of how incredible it would have been if we got our hands on some of the jewish electronics and gear that they on the kfir. the early 90s was when the backdoor channels with the israelis was conjuring up a few deals here and there

everything is possible.... as we say here 'we will make a plan'.

 

[MastanKhan]

Dear Mastan,

You have been saying this for a decade now on this forum. That PAF high command has been sabotaging the purchase of new fighters. I agree with you they keep fiddling with no clear plan of what they wish to purchase and when. They are happy with what they see. rather than see that the world has moved on to F15s SU35s and F35s.

However, the problem i feel is less with PAF high command or procurement section. The problem i believe solely lies with the Pakistan Army.

The army consumes the major bulk of the budget whatever is left is given to PAF and lastly Pakistan Navy is left to scrap the bottom of the barrel.

So unfortunately i feel the PAF has major budget constraints to procure any major weapons. No one clearly knows the defence budget of Pakistan breakdown as in which branch of the armed forces gets how much money to procure what they require.

Window to procure something to replace Mirage IIIs and Vs is running out since a decade but it seems PAF is helpless.

Hi,

Army has no say in what the air force does---. Nobody has any say in what the air force does---.

But such a directionless entity the PAF is---I could never in my wildest of dreams could imagine that---but then when I put all the things together from 55 years ago---I realized that it is all intentional---.

This sabotage has treason written allover it---and it is wilfully being done one air chief marshal after the other---.

 

[MastanKhan]

F35 does..i assume others will as well

Hi,

Are you saying that F35 is capable of mounting a 1000 KG + Ashm on each external pylon

Here I would humbly disagree. I dont consider an aircraft upgraded unless it is integrated to command and control infrastructure along with link 17 and jh7a having radar and avionics different therefore it will take significant time and only after that trainnig will begin. By looking at the past history i think just the contract negotiation and delivery will take atleast a year even if we start on fast track basis today.

Plus I feel today priority is upgradation of air superiroity fighter. F16s cant compete meteor and rafael combo and they are coming this year and will take max 2 years to get fully capable deployment.

If I had money and decision making power I will go for Viper (block 70) or Typhoon to counter Rafael otherwise PAF will be on same status as we were during kargil war i.e. retreat

Hi,

If it was not for me---you pakistani kids would not even know or understand what " integration " is---. So please don't teach me about integration---.

Now you want to talk about " I feel "---this is fcking war---these are weapons of war---and not how you feel---your feel does not mean sh-it---.

Talk with historical precedence---why did the Roman armies had heavy fighting force along with light and fast ---why did the mongols have heavy fighting troops along with light and fast---.

The greatest fighting forces of the world had both light and heavy troops for combat in the past---.

Modern combat has not changed anything---even the mighty US has reverted back to its obsolte heavy aircraft the B52 and made it a modern day monster with the likes of nothing else on the planet---.

It would not take 1 year for Israel to get a much needed weapon from america---then why would it take 1 year for you to get the JH7A from china---.

It took less than 72 hours for Israel to get the Thaad anti missile system in israel after the 27th---so why would you not be able to get something from 'big brother' china on a snap---.

But I also know of situations where well-meaning PAF efforts were shut down by the US and/or India, e.g., the attempt to buy MBDA & Thales equipment for the JF-17.

Likewise, the M2K/-5 drama can't be reduced to avoiding corruption, I think the fact that Paris wouldn't extend a line-of-credit also played a huge role. There were even efforts for Airbus MRTTs from Europe that got shut down by external pressures on vendors. I think the 1-2 bad apples within seem a lot bigger than they are when you're up against a lot of external pressures.

That said, I do hope we adapt our SOWs for the JF-17. As we've said dozens of times already, if the Ra'ad/II can't fit on the JF-17, then we should figure out a way to make it fit, even if it means creating a new Ra'ad variant.

Hi,

I knew long before that france won't come true---I mentioned it---but no one listened---.

Pakistan & Paf tried to trick fck france---playing with them get the M2K's and then toying with Rafale---screwing the french up on the submarine deal after getting the Augusta 90 and rejecting the scorpene and going for the german subs---ended up with nothing---.

I mean to ask---who was pakistan trying to fool---you fck the french up good multiple times and yet you want a favor from them---and when they poke you in the eye---you want to cry murder--- cry me a river---.

Even in that case JH7A dont fill the bill. J10A cant face rafael. So your logic is still flawed

Hi,

I apologize up front---please don't be upset---.

Who the fck wanted the JH7A to fight the Rafale---which moron wanted the JH7A for air to air---.

I know I asked for the JH7A---but that was to have the ability to carry at least two CM400 AKG 1000 KG + AShM or ASM or have the possibility of carrying 2 babur type ALCM or two Hatf V111 ALCM for standoff delivery on indian coastal cities or against indian navy ships---

 

[ziaulislam]

Hi,

SOM (missile)

2 carried internally in stealth mode, has 500lb+ warhead(larger the both exocet and harpoon) and variety of other subammunition

 

[The Accountant]

Hi,

Are you saying that F35 is capable of mounting a 1000 KG + Ashm on each external pylon



Hi,

If it was not for me---you pakistani kids would not even know or understand what " integration " is---. So please don't teach me about integration---.

Now you want to talk about " I feel "---this is fcking war---these are weapons of war---and not how you feel---your feel does not mean sh-it---.

Talk with historical precedence---why did the Roman armies had heavy fighting force along with light and fast ---why did the mongols have heavy fighting troops along with light and fast---.

The greatest fighting forces of the world had both light and heavy troops for combat in the past---.

Modern combat has not changed anything---even the mighty US has reverted back to its obsolte heavy aircraft the B52 and made it a modern day monster with the likes of nothing else on the planet---.

It would not take 1 year for Israel to get a much needed weapon from america---then why would it take 1 year for you to get the JH7A from china---.

It took less than 72 hours for Israel to get the Thaad anti missile system in israel after the 27th---so why would you not be able to get something from 'big brother' china on a snap---.



Hi,

I knew long before that france won't come true---I mentioned it---but no one listened---.

Pakistan & Paf tried to trick fck france---playing with them get the M2K's and then toying with Rafale---screwing the french up on the submarine deal after getting the Augusta 90 and rejecting the scorpene and going for the german subs---ended up with nothing---.

I mean to ask---who was pakistan trying to fool---you fck the french up good multiple times and yet you want a favor from them---and when they poke you in the eye---you want to cry murder--- cry me a river---.



Hi,

I apologize up front---please don't be upset---.

Who the fck wanted the JH7A to fight the Rafale---which moron wanted the JH7A for air to air---.

I know I asked for the JH7A---but that was to have the ability to carry at least two CM400 AKG 1000 KG + AShM or ASM or have the possibility of carrying 2 babur type ALCM or two Hatf V111 ALCM for standoff delivery on indian coastal cities or against indian navy ships---

I don't know what do you think of yourself, but you are not the only one who knows the war strategies. Romans were the fucking super power so were the mongols. this is not classical era anymore where mere muscle power is going to take you at the place you want to be and you can loot all the wealth you want ...

The moment we start making campaign of invading other countries like mongols, Persians or Romans we will bombed to stone age.

Today's world biggest weapons are economic power, media power, political alliances. Where are we on those front? Lets face the reality that economically we are crooked and we can't purchase all the weapons at our will.

You are giving me lecture on integration and here you are claiming that JH7A will cost us 1 to 2 million a piece. You can give this shit to some newbie who don't have knowledge of defense equipment. First of all nobody is going to give you a fighter at 1 million dollar piece furthermore, whatever the per piece cost is try sending an un-integrated JH7A into battle field and it will end up no better than Abhinandan's Mig.

Can you please tell the kids like me what will be the estimated cost of training and integration of JH7A into existing command and control infrastructure of Pakistan?

If you have to invest 500 to 800 million dollars on just training and integration of an obsolete aircraft why the **** you cant buy 2 squadrons of multirole JF17 that can not only fire stand off weapons but can also survive on its own and is not a maintenance nightmare.

 

[denel]

I don't think the PAF anticipated flying the Mirage 3/5 this late. Even with the Ra'ad ALCM and H-2/H-4 SOWs in the pipeline, the PAF probably expected another fighter to use those weapons. According to the PAF's official 1999-2009 book, the J-10A/FC-20 was supposed to take-up the strike role. We also know that from 1996-2004, the PAF wanted the Mirage 2000-5 Mk2, but the French ended its production, leading the PAF to the FC-20.

Yes neither

I don't know what do you think of yourself, but you are not the only one who knows the war strategies. Romans were the fucking super power so were the mongols. this is not classical era anymore where mere muscle power is going to take you at the place you want to be and you can loot all the wealth you want ...

The moment we start making campaign of invading other countries like mongols, Persians or Romans we will bombed to stone age.

Today's world biggest weapons are economic power, media power, political alliances. Where are we on those front? Lets face the reality that economically we are crooked and we can't purchase all the weapons at our will.

You are giving me lecture on integration and here you are claiming that JH7A will cost us 1 to 2 million a piece. You can give this shit to some newbie who don't have knowledge of defense equipment. First of all nobody is going to give you a fighter at 1 million dollar piece furthermore, whatever the per piece cost is try sending an un-integrated JH7A into battle field and it will end up no better than Abhinandan's Mig.

Can you please tell the kids like me what will be the estimated cost of training and integration of JH7A into existing command and control infrastructure of Pakistan?

If you have to invest 500 to 800 million dollars on just training and integration of an obsolete aircraft why the **** you cant buy 2 squadrons of multirole JF17 that can not only fire stand off weapons but can also survive on its own and is not a maintenance nightmare.

friend, there is a difference here; comparing a lightweight vs heavy weight. lightweight range will degrade as soon as it has weight to carry; heavy weight will go the full range based on the load. jf-17 is limited in that capability when loaded; again you will expose tankers to refuel etc.
mastankhan is right - of course it wont be a 1mil a piece but everything is negotiable. any aircraft will have a bleed in period; same goes for jf-17b as well. plus with the recent upgrades jh7 remains a very potent aircraft for what it delivers - think of it like a mini strategic bomber/carrier.

 

[The Accountant]

Yes neither

friend, there is a difference here; comparing a lightweight vs heavy weight. lightweight range will degrade as soon as it has weight to carry; heavy weight will go the full range based on the load. jf-17 is limited in that capability when loaded; again you will expose tankers to refuel etc.
mastankhan is right - of course it wont be a 1mil a piece but everything is negotiable. any aircraft will have a bleed in period; same goes for jf-17b as well. plus with the recent upgrades jh7 remains a very potent aircraft for what it delivers - think of it like a mini strategic bomber/carrier.

There is ni dispute over need of a heavy weight. The issue is with the priorities. With rafael and meteor start joining in a few months what is the priority ? A naval bomber or an air superiority fighter that can counter rafael? we have limited resources and already have invested much on Navy in terms of type 54, Milgem, 8 AIP submarines, Anti ship coastal batteries and planned upgradation of F22_ and Agusta.

Our priority is to get a decent number of multi-role capable fighters first and then we can focus on bombers. Plus JH7A are not integrated into our fleet therefore, their integration, training and setting up maintenance infrastructure will be a huge cost...

Even if we want a heavy I would prefer a multirole heavy over strike aircraft given the limited resources

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi,

I knew long before that france won't come true---I mentioned it---but no one listened---.

Pakistan & Paf tried to trick fck france---playing with them get the M2K's and then toying with Rafale---screwing the french up on the submarine deal after getting the Augusta 90 and rejecting the scorpene and going for the german subs---ended up with nothing---.

I mean to ask---who was pakistan trying to fool---you fck the french up good multiple times and yet you want a favor from them---and when they poke you in the eye---you want to cry murder--- cry me a river---.

The PAF asked the French for the M2K-5/9 in 2002/2003, and the French made it clear to them (plus India, Taiwan, Greece, UAE, Qatar, etc) that the M2K line was ending. Then at some point (2004?) it seemed efforts were made to get used M2K/-5s from Qatar plus various sources, but that fell through because it was clear back then that no one (including the French) wanted to 'upset India.'

As for the Rafale, are you aware that the T1/F1 variants of the Rafale and Typhoon didn't offer a progression track for AESA radar and true multi-role upgrades? Every Typhoon T1 user today is trying to off-load their T1s as it has become a maintenance white elephant. France only got off to a good start with F2/F3 sales, at which point Pak-French ties were a non-factor.

As for the Marlin/Scorpene. In 2005-2006 the PN actually had multiple programs, among them the SSP (which went to the German Type 214) but also a next-gen frigate. The French FREMM was in the running right until Zardari/PPP came in and signed an IMF deal, which permanently scuttled credit lines from Germany and France for these items. But no, the PN didn't leave France in the dust, it was the other way around.

Germany/France's loss became China's gain via the Hangor SSP and Type 054A. And sensing the opportunity, the Turks and Dutch walked in with creative layaway-type financing arrangements.

Anyways, the PAF's mistake was probably back in the late 1970s when Carter offered to help find a third-party EXIM loan for a M2K & F-1 purchase from France.

 

[araz]

The PAF asked the French for the M2K-5/9 in 2002/2003, and the French made it clear to them (plus India, Taiwan, Greece, UAE, Qatar, etc) that the M2K line was ending. Then at some point (2004?) it seemed efforts were made to get used M2K/-5s from Qatar plus various sources, but that fell through because it was clear back then that no one (including the French) wanted to 'upset India.'

As for the Rafale, are you aware that the T1/F1 variants of the Rafale and Typhoon didn't offer a progression track for AESA radar and true multi-role upgrades? Every Typhoon T1 user today is trying to off-load their T1s as it has become a maintenance white elephant. France only got off to a good start with F2/F3 sales, at which point Pak-French ties were a non-factor.

As for the Marlin/Scorpene. In 2005-2006 the PN actually had multiple programs, among them the SSP (which went to the German Type 214) but also a next-gen frigate. The French FREMM was in the running right until Zardari/PPP came in and signed an IMF deal, which permanently scuttled credit lines from Germany and France for these items. But no, the PN didn't leave France in the dust, it was the other way around.

Germany/France's loss became China's gain via the Hangor SSP and Type 054A. And sensing the opportunity, the Turks and Dutch walked in with creative layaway-type financing arrangements.

Anyways, the PAF's mistake was probably back in the late 1970s when Carter offered to help find a third-party EXIM loan for a M2K & F-1 purchase from France.

I do wonder whether there was ever an opportunity to buy the whole assembly line of the M2K5s from France. I know it would have cost an arm and a leg, and we would still be dependent on the french and bleeding money, but by now we could have access to a decent manufacturing base and the lessons learnt could have been incorporated into the JFT.
A

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I do wonder whether there was ever an opportunity to buy the whole assembly line of the M2K5s from France. I know it would have cost an arm and a leg, and we would still be dependent on the french and bleeding money, but by now we could have access to a decent manufacturing base and the lessons learnt could have been incorporated into the JFT.
A

I think it would have been in the late 1970s. In fact, after the PAF selected the F-16, the Indians were seriously thinking about locally manufacturing the M2K. But for some reason they went full ham on the Su-30MKI (a huge blessing in disguise, the M2K-H is their best asset for Indo-Pak fights IMO).

So, if the US just said "no" to the F-16, then the 110 fighters would've been the M2K instead of the F-16, and I'd imagine the PAF would've brought up local assembly.

But in the late 1980s, the PAF started looking for a F-6 replacement and lightweight multi-role complement to the F-16. There was the Grumman-Chengdu Sabre II, but Dassault also offered the Mirage F-1 production line with every ATAR turbojet available (as per AC Kaiser Tufail).

Had the PAF took Dassault up on that offer, then in the 1990s they could have made a F-1 variant with the Klimov SMR-95 turbofan engine and, in turn, gotten a Block-1 JF-17 15-20 years earlier. It would've also made the actual JF-17 program more ambitious in scope (no urgency).

 

[MIRauf]

Only Multi-Role heavy available or has a chance of being available is EFT, I wouldn't count on Ruskies to supply any warbirds, least not right now.

Your best bet is to work with Ruskies to get NOB on J-16 and have Chinese be willing to supply you. J-16 can defend itself, it will be common with PLAAf and PLAN which is opting it over JF-7 types.

 

[syed_yusuf]

Only Multi-Role heavy available or has a chance of being available is EFT, I wouldn't count on Ruskies to supply any warbirds, least not right now.

Your best bet is to work with Ruskies to get NOB on J-16 and have Chinese be willing to supply you. J-16 can defend itself, it will be common with PLAAf and PLAN which is opting it over JF-7 types.

Russian can provide NoC for J16 provided chinese and pakistan provide enough pressure. after all J16 is puerly chini mal. and has no ruski parts/equipment/avionics etc.

and for future PAF should invest in JF33 a Pakistani customize version of FC-31. this is immencely needed to keep the upper edge an negate s400 and like advantage

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Only Multi-Role heavy available or has a chance of being available is EFT, I wouldn't count on Ruskies to supply any warbirds, least not right now.

Your best bet is to work with Ruskies to get NOB on J-16 and have Chinese be willing to supply you. J-16 can defend itself, it will be common with PLAAf and PLAN which is opting it over JF-7 types.

It'd be better to for the J-16 et. al as it would (probably) mean quick integration work for the SD-10A, C-802, and a Chinese supersonic AShM (e.g., HD-1A, CM-302, CX-1, etc).

One way to get Russian approvals could be to just pay them a licensing fee for each J-16 we buy from China. The Russians can get $10-15 m extra for every plane they weren't planning to sell to Pakistan.