Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[denel]

JF-17 came about because of Tiananman Square Stand off, not due to sanctions. If US Gov't hadn't blocked Grumman from assisting with Saber-II, there probably be no JF-17.

Indeed .

 

[Nasr]

I thought sanctions were imposed on China due to Tianemen Square incident. This prohibited any and all American military sales to China. As I recall, after the Sino-American reproachment during Nixon's time. There were some American military hardware already sold to China, i.e UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters. So it ought to have been sanctions, which prohibited American military hardware manufacturers from dealing with China. Not confining just Grumman Corporation from collaborating with China and Pakistan on the Super-7 project.

 

[MIRauf]

Ghazwa1, you are right, it got all lump summed into one Tianaman Square episode. Imagine if that hadn't happened, it would be Sabre-II being discussed here instead of JF-17. Folks be jumping up and down cause it has 5 hardpoints and not 7/9. Nosecone too small for medium size Radar, range barely better then what F-7 has to offer.

At the end all PAF wanted was to have something in large numbers that would complement and work alongside F-16s.

 

[Nasr]

Ghazwa1, you are right, it got all lump summed into one Tianaman Square episode. Imagine if that hadn't happened, it would be Sabre-II being discussed here instead of JF-17. Folks be jumping up and down cause it has 5 hardpoints and not 7/9. Nosecone too small for medium size Radar, range barely better then what F-7 has to offer.

At the end all PAF wanted was to have something in large numbers that would complement and work alongside F-16s.

Yes you're correct that this is what Pakistan Air Force wanted at the time. It has been mentioned numerous times, various Pakistan Air Force books, that had it not been for the pivotal decision made by the then Pakistan Air Force - ACM Mushaf Ali Mir to "de-couple" the avionics from the air frame in the development phase. That the Thunder Program would have stalled. The mindset at the time, was the urgency for Pakistan to have its own fighter jet which is impervious to Western Sanctions, is what Pakistan Air Force benefitted from.

Today, things are different, due to the decisions made back then. If anyone looks at the indian Air Force, they are on course (250 already built) to fielding 270 Su-30MKi Flankers. To top that, the indians are now working on full MRO set up for the Flankers. They have also managed to integrate a very lethal weapon on the Flankers, which is the Supersonic BrahMos missile system. At present, I do not believe Pakistan Air Force has anything remotely resembling that capability, nor the means to defend against it. BrahMos goes at Mach-5, and to make matters worse, this missile has the ability to evade air defense radars by flying around them and/or dodge incoming air defense missiles. It doesn't end there either, at present the BrahMos missile is not only fielded by the indian Air Force, but also the Army and Navy. But the worst of all news is yet to come, they are now working with the Russians to develop BrahMos-ll which will be a "Hypersonic Missile" capable of dodging incoming SAMs.

The time has come for Pakistan Military (all services) to up their game. Not just in terms of countering the enemy's capabilities, but also to surpass them. Tilt the advantage in our favor by developing hypersonic missiles and HGVs ourselves or in collaboration with China and/or Russia. We need to have the same mindset now, as we did when Pakistan Air Force needed Thunders. But not just Pakistan Air Force now, the Navy, Army and Strategic division need to get their acts together and work on Hypersonic capability, FAST!!!!

 

[syed_yusuf]

The mindset at the time, was the urgency for Pakistan to have its own fighter jet which is impervious to Western Sanctions, is what Pakistan Air Force benefitted from. so far PAF have added 100+ JFT locally produced with local maintenance and upgrade.

Today, things are different, due to the decisions made back then. If anyone looks at the PakistanAir Force, they are on course (112 already built) to fielding 200 JFT. To top that, the Pakistan is now working on full MRO set up for the JFT. They have also managed to integrate a very lethal weapon on the JFT, which is the CM400AKG and RaaD II. missile system. At present, I do not believe Indian Air Force has anything remotely resembling that capability, nor the means to defend against it. CM400 AKG goes at Mach-5, RAAD 2 a subsonic but lethal missile, and to make matters worse, this missile has the ability to evade air defense radars by flying around them and/or dodge incoming air defense missiles. It doesn't end there either, at present the Babur missile is not only fielded by the Pakistan Army but by Navy also in terms of Harba. But the worst of all news is yet to come, they are now working with the Chinese to develop CM302++ which will be a "Hypersonic Missile" capable of dodging incoming SAMs.

The time has come for Indian Military (all services) to up their game. Not just in terms of countering the enemy's capabilities, but also to surpass them. Indian Air Force , the Navy, Army and Bharathi Strategic division need to get their acts together and work on Hypersonic capability, FAST!!!!

 

[CriticalThought]

The mindset at the time, was the urgency for Pakistan to have its own fighter jet which is impervious to Western Sanctions, is what Pakistan Air Force benefitted from. so far PAF have added 100+ JFT locally produced with local maintenance and upgrade.

Today, things are different, due to the decisions made back then. If anyone looks at the PakistanAir Force, they are on course (112 already built) to fielding 200 JFT. To top that, the Pakistan is now working on full MRO set up for the JFT. They have also managed to integrate a very lethal weapon on the JFT, which is the CM400AKG and RaaD II. missile system. At present, I do not believe Indian Air Force has anything remotely resembling that capability, nor the means to defend against it. CM400 AKG goes at Mach-5, RAAD 2 a subsonic but lethal missile, and to make matters worse, this missile has the ability to evade air defense radars by flying around them and/or dodge incoming air defense missiles. It doesn't end there either, at present the Babur missile is not only fielded by the Pakistan Army but by Navy also in terms of Harba. But the worst of all news is yet to come, they are now working with the Chinese to develop CM302++ which will be a "Hypersonic Missile" capable of dodging incoming SAMs.

The time has come for Indian Military (all services) to up their game. Not just in terms of countering the enemy's capabilities, but also to surpass them. Indian Air Force , the Navy, Army and Bharathi Strategic division need to get their acts together and work on Hypersonic capability, FAST!!!!

Very well written, but we are at a disadvantage that we need to recognize and remove. We have fewer high value targets and taking them out can set us back by decades. Our air defence relies on a mix of Western and Chinese tech. For safeguard of homeland, consider Western tech as compromised. In any future conflict, America and Israel will be fully backing India. So air defence is at the mercy of compromise from manufactures, hacking by India, and saturation from Brahmos. The fact that our Central Air Defence command runs on Windows XP inspires zero trust.

If forward air defence and air bases are lost in a saturation attack, then backbones of our military tech such as PAC, HIT, POF become exposed. Once India takes them out, we will be set back by decades.

For us, an impregnable air defence is an existential necessity. India can absorb the CM-400 in its size, we can't.

And while we are on the topic, giving India the freedom to progress economically with relative internal peace is a failure of epic proportions. A counter regime of internal instability SHOULD have been imposed, and failure to do so is an open question to our generals.

 

[Maxpane]

 

[araz]

Ghazwa1, you are right, it got all lump summed into one Tianaman Square episode. Imagine if that hadn't happened, it would be Sabre-II being discussed here instead of JF-17. Folks be jumping up and down cause it has 5 hardpoints and not 7/9. Nosecone too small for medium size Radar, range barely better then what F-7 has to offer.

At the end all PAF wanted was to have something in large numbers that would complement and work alongside F-16s.

I thought PAF walked out of the project much before fruition. So I am failing to see the relevance of this discussion to PAFs quest for the JFT. Please correct me if my assumptions are wrong.
A

 

[MIRauf]

Don't think PAF Walked out of the project on its own at least not acknowledged as such by small circle of friends in PAF back then. Also nothing that I came across during those days in Flight / AFM and few other magazines at that time, they all indicated the set back on PAF due to Grumman being told to pull out of the project.

Point was that someone stated that Sanctions on Pak / PAF helped JF-17 come about, while actually it was Sanctions placed on China in response to Tianamen Square.

PS: I should have stated Sanctions on China, not Sanctions on Pak in my original statement. Any way, sorry for diverging from Original subject of Mirage III/V.

 

[araz]

Don't think PAF Walked out of the project on its own at least not acknowledged as such by small circle of friends in PAF back then. Also nothing that I came across during those days in Flight / AFM and few other magazines at that time, they all indicated the set back on PAF due to Grumman being told to pull out of the project.

Point was that someone stated that Sanctions on Pak / PAF helped JF-17 come about, while actually it was Sanctions placed on China in response to Tianamen Square.

PS: I should have stated Sanctions on China, not Sanctions on Pak in my original statement. Any way, sorry for diverging from Original subject of Mirage III/V.

Thank you for your reply. There was a article which was published and quoted on the forum regarding the Sabre2 project. It stated to my surprise that PAF had deemed the project nonviable on grounds of escalating costs and cost vs benefit. The Chinese continued on with the work till Tianmen square happened and Grummen walked out. I remember this as I had always been intrigued by why PAF had not thought of upgrading its F7s. One of my mates at Cranfield had mentioned that PAF was not impressed with the Sabre 2 project as it did not give them any significant advantage over the PGs. However this aspect has alaways remained a mystery along with PAFs lack of interest in the F1.
A

 

[MIRauf]

Hi Araz, thank you for the feedback / insight, always great to hear others inside track. Magazines push / publish their own version for the sales, gone are days when their writing could have been taken as gospel as we use to read into it back 20/30 years ago. I had just heard tidbits from some of the PAF Farmer Jockeys about the Sabre-II projects and some of their expectations.

On F-1, what I was told by an Pak Gov't insider (ZAB's guy, during Shah's era ) who moved to US that Egypt threw the Monkey ranch in the F-1 project. They wanted to be the leader of Arab world and wanted the Production plant only in Egypt, while Pak wanted it in Pakistan ( PAC ) and had the backing of the Shah. Then around that time the once in a life time chance for the F-16s came about and rest as they say was history on the F-1s for PAF. Now the guy did admit that he was not with the Ministry of Defense but they did dine and wine with Gov't and Military higher up as his spouse was an Executive with the World Bank, which left little reason for any of us to doubt him.

Now about the Egyptians, this is one of the thing we saw first hand in Kuwait during the 70s and early to mid 80s that Egyptian as Arabic speaking thought of themselves above the rest of the non-Caucasian foreigners. We as kids were much better treated by Kuwaitis of Iraqi decedent then the Egyptian expats.

Any ways, sorry for the distracting from Mirage thread, but PAFs original choice of A-7s as bomb truck was much better in my opinion then the Mirage F1s, but that is an story for another thread.

 

[Maxpane]

 

[araz]

Hi Araz, thank you for the feedback / insight, always great to hear others inside track. Magazines push / publish their own version for the sales, gone are days when their writing could have been taken as gospel as we use to read into it back 20/30 years ago. I had just heard tidbits from some of the PAF Farmer Jockeys about the Sabre-II projects and some of their expectations.

On F-1, what I was told by an Pak Gov't insider (ZAB's guy, during Shah's era ) who moved to US that Egypt threw the Monkey ranch in the F-1 project. They wanted to be the leader of Arab world and wanted the Production plant only in Egypt, while Pak wanted it in Pakistan ( PAC ) and had the backing of the Shah. Then around that time the once in a life time chance for the F-16s came about and rest as they say was history on the F-1s for PAF. Now the guy did admit that he was not with the Ministry of Defense but they did dine and wine with Gov't and Military higher up as his spouse was an Executive with the World Bank, which left little reason for any of us to doubt him.

Now about the Egyptians, this is one of the thing we saw first hand in Kuwait during the 70s and early to mid 80s that Egyptian as Arabic speaking thought of themselves above the rest of the non-Caucasian foreigners. We as kids were much better treated by Kuwaitis of Iraqi decedent then the Egyptian expats.

Any ways, sorry for the distracting from Mirage thread, but PAFs original choice of A-7s as bomb truck was much better in my opinion then the Mirage F1s, but that is an story for another thread.

Thank you for your response.
Your friend is not the former AC who was ADC to Bhutto currently in US with a son in the PAF who was discharged ?

 

[MIRauf]

Hi Araz, Sorry no, he is / was a Civi, just well connected due to his Spouse. He came here for his M.Sc, during that time his Spouse got job offer from World Bank in the US and stayed here.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Araz, thank you for the feedback / insight, always great to hear others inside track. Magazines push / publish their own version for the sales, gone are days when their writing could have been taken as gospel as we use to read into it back 20/30 years ago. I had just heard tidbits from some of the PAF Farmer Jockeys about the Sabre-II projects and some of their expectations.

On F-1, what I was told by an Pak Gov't insider (ZAB's guy, during Shah's era ) who moved to US that Egypt threw the Monkey ranch in the F-1 project. They wanted to be the leader of Arab world and wanted the Production plant only in Egypt, while Pak wanted it in Pakistan ( PAC ) and had the backing of the Shah. Then around that time the once in a life time chance for the F-16s came about and rest as they say was history on the F-1s for PAF. Now the guy did admit that he was not with the Ministry of Defense but they did dine and wine with Gov't and Military higher up as his spouse was an Executive with the World Bank, which left little reason for any of us to doubt him.

Now about the Egyptians, this is one of the thing we saw first hand in Kuwait during the 70s and early to mid 80s that Egyptian as Arabic speaking thought of themselves above the rest of the non-Caucasian foreigners. We as kids were much better treated by Kuwaitis of Iraqi decedent then the Egyptian expats.

Any ways, sorry for the distracting from Mirage thread, but PAFs original choice of A-7s as bomb truck was much better in my opinion then the Mirage F1s, but that is an story for another thread.

Hi,

Thanks for the information---. It is amazing when you throw something up in the wind---or into a twister and something amazing pops up---.