Can Japan show the West how to live peacefully with Islam?

[LeveragedBuyout]

Why is it not correct? Have you seen the abject poverty peoples in Palestine are placed in? Radicalization is an effect. Please provide me a refute and citation to support your claim.

I already refuted your statement in post 15. This justification does not hold water, and should not be entertained. There is no justification for terrorism.

 

[Aepsilons]

Hmm..and how is their form of government responsible for the racism,violence and radicalisation in them?So you are saying the Saudi royal family is to blame for the various inhuman acts committed by common saudi citizens(or rather subjects).Hmm..Malaysia..maybe you should google Bhumiputra policy instead of tourism ads.To the wise,a sign is enough.
As far as personal remarks are concerned,no one can help someone following ostrich policy.

You know very well that in pure monarchies, civil liberties are not afforded or may even be considered secondary , whereas a more representative government in the case of a Constitutional Monarchy or a Republic places more emphasis on civil liberties. I will not deny that there are civil rights issues that KSA needs to deal with, but using KSA as basis to placate judgment on a majority muslim nation is biased because the country in itself is a monarchy. I would use Indonesia as a better example, which is a Republic of over 256 million, and includes adherents of the Islamic, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu etc faiths; as well as composed of a variety ethnicities and races.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Sorry to post OT, but you make a very interesting observation.

Just like you to know that having experienced Crusades, Forced conversions / expulsions, colonialism, etc.. reflects rather poorly on Europe.

But of course, Muslim invasion of Europe, forced conversions/expulsions, colonialism, etc. from the 8th century onward is perfectly acceptable.

 

[Viper0011.]

I love Japan, and would hate to see it brought down by the same factors that have brought down others.

Wait......are you saying that the Muslims brought down others because of immigration? Your post started somewhat decent and then it got hazzy as fog. Do elaborate. I'd love to see some fact based statistic.....

But of course, Muslim invasion of Europe, forced conversions/expulsions, colonialism, etc. from the 8th century onward is perfectly acceptable.

I don't think either are acceptable or should be acceptable to normal humans. But why are you ignoring what the poster asked you and countering it by adding this here? Does that mean what the Christians did was right and what the Muslims did was wrong? How do two wrongs make a right...??? Seems like in your mind it is

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Wait......are you saying that the Muslims brought down others because of immigration? Your post started somewhat decent and then it got hazzy as fog. Do elaborate. I'd love to see some fact based statistic.....

I am saying mass immigration brought down the other countries, not specifically Muslim immigration (e.g. the tsunami of illegal immigrants into the US). Japan has no experience with mass immigration, so it's absurd to conclude that it can present a model for how to live peacefully with any alien culture, let alone "how to live peacefully with Islam."

What statistic would you like to see?

Wait......are you saying that the Muslims brought down others because of immigration? Your post started somewhat decent and then it got hazzy as fog. Do elaborate. I'd love to see some fact based statistic.....



I don't think either are acceptable or should be acceptable to normal humans. But why are you ignoring what the poster asked you and countering it by adding this here? Does that mean what the Christians did was right and what the Muslims did was wrong? How do two wrongs make a right...??? Seems like in your mind it is

What poster, and what did that poster ask me? What is it that you think I've ignored?

 

[Aepsilons]

I already refuted your statement in post 15. This justification does not hold water, and should not be entertained. There is no justification for terrorism.

That link reflects a paper that was written in 2002 with data samples that was collected from Hezbollah during the 1980s and 1990s. So much has happened in the past 10 years, namely War on Terror. It would be better to develop new data sampling and a thorough multivariate statistical analysis and even Analysis of Variance. In the field of research , we cannot rely on data that is over 20 years old. Variables changes within a whim.

Thanks for your link tho.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

That link reflects a paper that was written in 2002 with data samples that was collected from Hezbollah during the 1980s and 1990s. So much has happened in the past 10 years, namely War on Terror. It would be better to develop new data sampling and a thorough multivariate statistical analysis and even Analysis of Variance. In the field of research , we cannot rely on data that is over 20 years old. Variables changes within a whim.

Thanks for your link tho.

I agree, please present a more modern study that supports your hypothesis. I've shown you mine, it's time for you to show me yours.

 

[Aepsilons]

I am saying mass immigration brought down the other countries, not specifically Muslim immigration (e.g. the tsunami of illegal immigrants into the US). Japan has no experience with mass immigration, so it's absurd to conclude that it can present a model for how to live peacefully with any alien culture, let alone "how to live peacefully with Islam."

What statistic would you like to see?



What poster, and what did that poster ask me? What is it that you think I've ignored?

You're kidding me right? We've been handing issues of illegal immigration , my friend, and the number has exceeded in the tens of thousands. Given, we are not dealing with millions of illegal immigration as the United States is with Latinos crossing the porous border -- per annum.

I agree, please present a more modern study that supports your hypothesis. I've shown you mine, it's time for you to show me yours.

I suggest you look into social cleavage theory as an explanation to link economics and terrorism.

http://www.relooney.info/0_New_569.pdf

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

You're kidding me right? We've been handing issues of illegal immigration , my friend, and the number has exceeded in the tens of thousands. Given, we are not dealing with millions of illegal immigration as the United States is with Latinos crossing the porous border -- per annum.

Let's back up for a second and look at the big picture. I've stayed relentlessly focused on the topic, but there has been a repeated attempt in this thread to distract from the topic.

Article hypothesis: Japan can show the West how to live peacefully with Islam.
Major premise: Japan lives peacefully with Islam.

The major premise is false, on its face. It does not live peacefully with Islam, because it has virtually no Muslims on which to draw such a conclusion. The West has one to two orders of magnitude more Muslims, both on a numbers and a percent of population basis, and can draw valid conclusions about its Muslim population.

Japan cannot show the West how to live peacefully with Islam. Japan needs to learn itself how to live peacefully with Islam before it can teach anything.

Anything else (why populations are radicalized, whether the West has treated Muslims poorly, the type of immigrants flooding the US) is irrelevant.

And to directly answer your question, no, I am not kidding. Japan, with its tens of thousands of illegal immigrants, cannot teach anything to the US, with its tens of millions of illegals, and almost three hundred years of assimilating some of the most diverse populations on earth, about living in peace with an Islam.

 

[Aepsilons]

@LeveragedBuyout ,

Poverty bears indirectly on terrorism by sparking conflict and eroding state capacity, both of which create conditions that can facilitate terrorist activity. Conflict zones not only cost lives, but
they can incubate virtually every type of transnational security threat by creating the optimal anarchic environment for external predators. While low per-capita income increases the likelihood of civil conflict, conflict zones in turn have been exploited by terrorists to lure foot soldiers and train new cadres-as in Bosnia, the Philippines and Central Asia.


In extreme cases, conflict results in state failure, as happened in Somalia and Afghanistan. When states collapse, the climate for predatory transnational actors is improved exponentially. Economic privation is an important indicator of state failure. The CIA's State Failure Task Force found that states in which human suffering is rampant (as measured by high infant mortality) are 2.3 times more likely to fail than others. State failure is also substantially correlated with uneven distribution of income within societies, as well as a lack of openness to trade. While poor economic conditions are not the only major risk factor for state weakness and failure, they are widely understood to be an important contributor, along with partial democratization, corrupt governance, regional instability and ethnic tension.




Reference: Rice, Susan. (2006). The Threat of Global Poverty. Retrieved from:
http://www.relooney.info/0_New_569.pdf

 

[Abotani]

You know very well that in pure monarchies, civil liberties are not afforded or may even be considered secondary , whereas a more representative government in the case of a Constitutional Monarchy or a Republic places more emphasis on civil liberties. I will not deny that there are civil rights issues that KSA needs to deal with, but using KSA as basis to placate judgment on a majority muslim nation is biased because the country in itself is a monarchy. I would use Indonesia as a better example, which is a Republic of over 256 million, and includes adherents of the Islamic, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu etc faiths; as well as composed of a variety ethnicities and races.

Which still doesn't answer why the saudi muslims are so radicalised and discriminatory to others.Why the migrants who are treated as completely like dirt don't resort to violence or get radicalised while the saudi citizens who have much better lives do?
Or for that matter,let's take the situation in Pakistan,where the civil liberties are pretty non-existent.The citizens suffer from their oppressive authorities,from military to pseudo-democratic ones.The muslim pakistanis are pretty radicalised while the hindus,christians and other minorities(if they are still alive) are not.Now we see different groups of people,all under the same oppressive system..in which the muslims are in majority and yet radical and discriminatory to their minorities.
May want to update yourself on Indonesia.The religious bigotry and radicalisation there is only growing even when they enjoy significant civil liberties and economic prosperity.
Now please don't say we need to realise utopia for the muslims to become tolerant as a group.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

@LeveragedBuyout ,

Poverty bears indirectly on terrorism by sparking conflict and eroding state capacity, both of which create conditions that can facilitate terrorist activity. Conflict zones not only cost lives, but
they can incubate virtually every type of transnational security threat by creating the optimal anarchic environment for external predators. While low per-capita income increases the likelihood of civil conflict, conflict zones in turn have been exploited by terrorists to lure foot soldiers and train new cadres-as in Bosnia, the Philippines and Central Asia.


In extreme cases, conflict results in state failure, as happened in Somalia and Afghanistan. When states collapse, the climate for predatory transnational actors is improved exponentially. Economic privation is an important indicator of state failure. The CIA's State Failure Task Force found that states in which human suffering is rampant (as measured by high infant mortality) are 2.3 times more likely to fail than others. State failure is also substantially correlated with uneven distribution of income within societies, as well as a lack of openness to trade. While poor economic conditions are not the only major risk factor for state weakness and failure, they are widely understood to be an important contributor, along with partial democratization, corrupt governance, regional instability and ethnic tension.




Reference: Rice, Susan. (2006). The Threat of Global Poverty. Retrieved from:
http://www.relooney.info/0_New_569.pdf

I am reading this study (thank you for that), and will follow up here when I am finished. I just happened to read the section you posted just before you posted it. I was shaking my head in disappointment when I read it, so I was surprised you chose that section as support. I've emphasized in bold the key sentences. Here are my objections:
1) It is extremely difficult to separate tribalism and crime from terrorism in a failed state, as there is no order, and no institutions to attack
2) Poverty is a symptom of a failed state, not a cause of the failed state
3) The final sentence claims that poverty is an important contributor, but there are other major, easier to justify reasons for terrorism
4) So far, this article has been focused on trans-national terrorism (e.g. al-Qaeda attacking the US), not domestic terrorism. Domestic terrorism is the concern in Europe, not trans-national terrorism. Domestic terrorism would be the concern in Japan, if it had a significant number of Muslims to be concerned about.

In any case, I haven't read anything yet that has dissuaded me, but I'll let you know when I finish the paper.

 

[Aepsilons]

@LeveragedBuyout opined the following:


A) The major premise is false, on its face. It does not live peacefully with Islam, because it has virtually no Muslims on which to draw such a conclusion. The West has one to two orders of magnitude more Muslims, both on a numbers and a percent of population basis, and can draw valid conclusions about its Muslim population.

B) Japan cannot show the West how to live peacefully with Islam. Japan needs to learn itself how to live peacefully with Islam before it can teach anything.

C) Japan, with its tens of thousands of illegal immigrants, cannot teach anything to the US, with its tens of millions of illegals, and almost three hundred years of assimilating some of the most diverse populations on earth, about living in peace with an Islam.

[My reply is based on a color-coordinated scheme, my answer will be same color as the question being answered]

Answer to A) Of course Japan has the right to draw such conclusion because there is Muslim presence in Japan, one that numbers over 100,000, and this minority has grown and have been a presence in Japan for over 40 years. During the 40 some years, there have been no instance of terrorism or radicalization as seen in the West.


Answer to B) Of course Japan can, it has a thriving and cooperative Muslim community living in the country, as with other religious minorities. Japan is living peacefully with religious minorities, Muslims included.


Answer to C) Of course Japan can. Japan's established criterium in immigration policy that has stressed the necessity of immigrants having technical expertise in the job industry they're applying for, educational background, and satisfaction of criminal background checks -- has proven exemplary in bringing in the kinds of immigrants that can perfectly assimilate into Japanese society. Japan places more importance of skilled labor immigrants than non-skilled labor/ unskilled refugee applicants. In addition, Japan's strict border security should be emulated by countries with very porous borders -- resulting in waves upon waves of undocumented / illegal immigrants.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Reference: Rice, Susan. (2006). The Threat of Global Poverty. Retrieved from:
http://www.relooney.info/0_New_569.pdf

Finished reading. I don't have much to add to my previous comment, except to say that Susan Rice is approaching this from a political perspective, not an anthropological perspective. She makes a lot of claims about how X factor affects the development of terrorism, without presenting any data to support such claims. I'm afraid this paper doesn't cut it.

I like to think of myself as an open-minded person, so I thought, if a paper from 2002 doesn't satisfy my friend @Nihonjin1051, I should find a more recent one. From 2010:

Economic Conditions and the Quality of Suicide Terrorism

I'm afraid it's reached the same conclusions--little correlation between poverty / low education and terrorism. And this makes sense, because we see it in reality. Osama bin Laden was, of course, from a wealthy family. Mohammed Atta was an engineer and architect, and came from a wealthy family. Ziad Jarrah was from a wealthy family and studied aerospace engineering. Et cetera.

Even if Japan selects only the highly educated and wealthy, there is no guarantee it won't have another Hamburg Cell on its hands at some point.

@LeveragedBuyout opined the following:


A) The major premise is false, on its face. It does not live peacefully with Islam, because it has virtually no Muslims on which to draw such a conclusion. The West has one to two orders of magnitude more Muslims, both on a numbers and a percent of population basis, and can draw valid conclusions about its Muslim population.

B) Japan cannot show the West how to live peacefully with Islam. Japan needs to learn itself how to live peacefully with Islam before it can teach anything.

C) Japan, with its tens of thousands of illegal immigrants, cannot teach anything to the US, with its tens of millions of illegals, and almost three hundred years of assimilating some of the most diverse populations on earth, about living in peace with an Islam.

[My reply is based on a color-coordinated scheme, my answer will be same color as the question being answered]

Answer to A) Of course Japan has the right to draw such conclusion because there is Muslim presence in Japan, one that numbers over 100,000, and this minority has grown and have been a presence in Japan for over 40 years. During the 40 some years, there have been no instance of terrorism or radicalization as seen in the West.


Answer to B) Of course Japan can, it has a thriving and cooperative Muslim community living in the country, as with other religious minorities. Japan is living peacefully with religious minorities, Muslims included.


Answer to C) Of course Japan can. Japan's established criterium in immigration policy that has stressed the necessity of immigrants having technical expertise in the job industry they're applying for, educational background, and satisfaction of criminal background checks -- has proven exemplary in bringing in the kinds of immigrants that can perfectly assimilate into Japanese society. Japan places more importance of skilled labor immigrants than non-skilled labor/ unskilled refugee applicants. In addition, Japan's strict border security should be emulated by countries with very porous borders -- resulting in waves upon waves of undocumented / illegal immigrants.

A&B) America has successfully assimilated and knows how to live in peace with Martians. The proof is that we have never been attacked by Martians. The US can thus teach the world how to live in peace with Martians.

C) I can only answer: if mono-cultural Japan, with immigrants comprising 1.9% of its population, believes it can teach the multi-cultural US--with immigrants comprising 14.3% of its population--something about assimilation, I would like to hear it. I hope the last sentence of your post, "Japan's strict border security should be emulated by countries with very porous borders -- resulting in waves upon waves of undocumented / illegal immigrants" was said in jest. Japan's border security cannot be emulated by countries with porous borders, because Japan is an island nation, without porous borders.

 

[Falcon29]

I already refuted your statement in post 15. This justification does not hold water, and should not be entertained. There is no justification for terrorism.

Define 'terrorism' for me.