Can India & Pakistan come out of the spiral of mutual destruction ?

[Joe Shearer]

Examples please.

• Origins of Indus Valley Civilisation
• The position of Sanskrit in ancient Indian history
• The Aryan question - is Aryan a language or a people?
• Did anyone 'invade' India and bring the Rg Veda with them?
• Did Indo-Aryan, as a language of the Proto-Indo-European language family, come into India or was it always in India, and served as the root for all the other Indo-European languages?
• Are the Ramayana and the Mahabharat real narratives, or imaginary poems?
• Did Buddhism displace Hinduism?
• Were Hindus, and Buddhists, pacifist? Is that the reason why India suffered invasions?
• Was India a country completely at peace in matters of religion, until the Muslims invaded?
  • Indo-Greek Invasion and Rule in the Punjab, and the Doab
  • Saka-Pahlava Invasion and Rule
    • The Northern Satraps
    • The Western Satraps
  • The Kushanas
  • The Huna
    • Kidarite
    • Alchon
• Islam in India before Mohammed bin Qasim
• Was Mahmud of Ghazni the first Turkish chieftain who invaded India?
• Mahmud of Ghazni's 17 raids into India
• Mohammed of Ghor and Prithviraj Chohan
• The Slave Dynasty
  • Destruction of Hindu temples to build Muslim mosques and monuments
  • Forced conversions
• The Khaljis
• The Tughlaqs
• The Sayyids
• The Lodis
• The Mughals
• Were the Mughals, after Babur and Humayun, foreigners?
• Aurangzeb and controversies

I don't want to go beyond Aurangzeb as things get very tense from that point on and it will need very careful consideration about the wording. However, this is a list of topics where many of the distortions sold by the RSS can and should be corrected.

Your comments, please.

Population of muslims is growing....pls do some googling....

It is not. Please ask someone to help you with statistical analysis.

 

[jk007]

• Origins of Indus Valley Civilisation
• The position of Sanskrit in ancient Indian history
• The Aryan question - is Aryan a language or a people?
• Did anyone 'invade' India and bring the Rg Veda with them?
• Did Indo-Aryan, as a language of the Proto-Indo-European language family, come into India or was it always in India, and served as the root for all the other Indo-European languages?
• Are the Ramayana and the Mahabharat real narratives, or imaginary poems?
• Did Buddhism displace Hinduism?
• Were Hindus, and Buddhists, pacifist? Is that the reason why India suffered invasions?
• Was India a country completely at peace in matters of religion, until the Muslims invaded?
  • Indo-Greek Invasion and Rule in the Punjab, and the Doab
  • Saka-Pahlava Invasion and Rule
    • The Northern Satraps
    • The Western Satraps
  • The Kushanas
  • The Huna
    • Kidarite
    • Alchon
• Islam in India before Mohammed bin Qasim
• Was Mahmud of Ghazni the first Turkish chieftain who invaded India?
• Mahmud of Ghazni's 17 raids into India
• Mohammed of Ghor and Prithviraj Chohan
• The Slave Dynasty
  • Destruction of Hindu temples to build Muslim mosques and monuments
  • Forced conversions
• The Khaljis
• The Tughlaqs
• The Sayyids
• The Lodis
• The Mughals
• Were the Mughals, after Babur and Humayun, foreigners?
• Aurangzeb and controversies

I don't want to go beyond Aurangzeb as things get very tense from that point on and it will need very careful consideration about the wording. However, this is a list of topics where many of the distortions sold by the RSS can and should be corrected.

Your comments, please.


It is not. Please ask someone to help you with statistical analysis.

a) If I read *most* of the above points during my primary school, then I *completely* forgot them........
b) I already received 2 warning points from moderator for writing somethings they don't like to see [even though, the points I made during both times are correct and recent]. So, I am careful on what I write.
c) Indian history (used to) depresses me a lot....hence, I have previously read good amount of European history and American history [although I focus mostly on great leaders of the past of those continents].
d) Sometime in my future, I want to read about Indian history.
e) I can not imagine how RSS bought toxicity into history books, as they are never in power and were hounded for the most part of independent India.
f) There is a reason why people are voting for Modi and is so popular - those reasons, I am sure many people including yourself will never accept. Hence, no point in writing them here. Also, this forum has extreme blind hatred for Modi + RSS. I believe - some of such extreme feelings from Pakistanis is owing to their own helplessness.
g) Some of my close friends are hard-core anti-Modi people, but their entire reason for such hatred is the caste my friends are born into. i.e. Blinded by caste. Not sure how much to blame them, as (unfortunately) political economy has become so strong in India and everyone wants someone they know to be in power. Caste politics are one way to have someone your know occupying a chair.
h) Many years ago, I read in a pakistani newspaper that the seed of pakistan is born the day Aurangzeb defeated Dara Shikoh. (In my opinion) Indian intelligentia do not have the courage to dissect the reasons behind partition of India, and come to such conclusions, whether they are correct or wrong.
i) Many years ago, during my first visit to USA, there was a pakistani in my project, I told him that Pakistan is formed due to power struggle between Nehru and Jinnah. My reason is - I wanted to be popular, and took the easy approach on that topic (which by the way, many people I know still hold. Could be general opinion in India, although not sure).

 

[TheDarkKnight]

• Origins of Indus Valley Civilisation
• The position of Sanskrit in ancient Indian history
• The Aryan question - is Aryan a language or a people?
• Did anyone 'invade' India and bring the Rg Veda with them?
• Did Indo-Aryan, as a language of the Proto-Indo-European language family, come into India or was it always in India, and served as the root for all the other Indo-European languages?
• Are the Ramayana and the Mahabharat real narratives, or imaginary poems?
• Did Buddhism displace Hinduism?
• Were Hindus, and Buddhists, pacifist? Is that the reason why India suffered invasions?
• Was India a country completely at peace in matters of religion, until the Muslims invaded?
  • Indo-Greek Invasion and Rule in the Punjab, and the Doab
  • Saka-Pahlava Invasion and Rule
    • The Northern Satraps
    • The Western Satraps
  • The Kushanas
  • The Huna
    • Kidarite
    • Alchon
• Islam in India before Mohammed bin Qasim
• Was Mahmud of Ghazni the first Turkish chieftain who invaded India?
• Mahmud of Ghazni's 17 raids into India
• Mohammed of Ghor and Prithviraj Chohan
• The Slave Dynasty
  • Destruction of Hindu temples to build Muslim mosques and monuments
  • Forced conversions
• The Khaljis
• The Tughlaqs
• The Sayyids
• The Lodis
• The Mughals
• Were the Mughals, after Babur and Humayun, foreigners?
• Aurangzeb and controversies

I don't want to go beyond Aurangzeb as things get very tense from that point on and it will need very careful consideration about the wording. However, this is a list of topics where many of the distortions sold by the RSS can and should be corrected.

Couple more:
- Was India ever a country.
- Were there conflicts based on religion before British?
- Did muslims or hindus fought each other or fought together in an army?

Few things Pakistanis also need to fix in their head is:
Reality of Mohammed bin Qasim. What was the ‘real’ reason for Raja Dahir to give refuge to some Muslims. What a prick and suppressor Hajaj bin Yusuf was actually to own Muslims and how was Mohammed bin Qasim executed.

 

[hussain0216]

Pakistan as a political entity and independent nation is a reality.....all Indians accept it. No one wants Pak back into India.

For Indians, the idea of 2 nation theory is hard to accept.......the reason being - If India accepts then doesn't it mean the 2nd partition is inevitable with 22% or so muslims??

It's already inevitable, Jinnah was right and India is descending into a communal pit that it can't get out of

 

[RescueRanger]

I think it is possible but needs a thought change and sincerity. But maybe not in my lifetime sadly.

 

[Joe Shearer]

a) If I read *most* of the above points during my primary school, then I *completely* forgot them........
b) I already received 2 warning points from moderator for writing somethings they don't like to see [even though, the points I made during both times are correct and recent]. So, I am careful on what I write.
c) Indian history (used to) depresses me a lot....hence, I have previously read good amount of European history and American history [although I focus mostly on great leaders of the past of those continents].
d) Sometime in my future, I want to read about Indian history.
e) I can not imagine how RSS bought toxicity into history books, as they are never in power and were hounded for the most part of independent India.
f) There is a reason why people are voting for Modi and is so popular - those reasons, I am sure many people including yourself will never accept. Hence, no point in writing them here. Also, this forum has extreme blind hatred for Modi + RSS. I believe - some of such extreme feelings from Pakistanis is owing to their own helplessness.
g) Some of my close friends are hard-core anti-Modi people, but their entire reason for such hatred is the caste my friends are born into. i.e. Blinded by caste. Not sure how much to blame them, as (unfortunately) political economy has become so strong in India and everyone wants someone they know to be in power. Caste politics are one way to have someone your know occupying a chair.
h) Many years ago, I read in a pakistani newspaper that the seed of pakistan is born the day Aurangzeb defeated Dara Shikoh. (In my opinion) Indian intelligentia do not have the courage to dissect the reasons behind partition of India, and come to such conclusions, whether they are correct or wrong.
i) Many years ago, during my first visit to USA, there was a pakistani in my project, I told him that Pakistan is formed due to power struggle between Nehru and Jinnah. My reason is - I wanted to be popular, and took the easy approach on that topic (which by the way, many people I know still hold. Could be general opinion in India, although not sure).

a) If I read *most* of the above points during my primary school, then I *completely* forgot them........
b) I already received 2 warning points from moderator for writing somethings they don't like to see [even though, the points I made during both times are correct and recent]. So, I am careful on what I write.
c) Indian history (used to) depresses me a lot....hence, I have previously read good amount of European history and American history [although I focus mostly on great leaders of the past of those continents].
d) Sometime in my future, I want to read about Indian history.
e) I can not imagine how RSS bought toxicity into history books, as they are never in power and were hounded for the most part of independent India.
f) There is a reason why people are voting for Modi and is so popular - those reasons, I am sure many people including yourself will never accept. Hence, no point in writing them here. Also, this forum has extreme blind hatred for Modi + RSS. I believe - some of such extreme feelings from Pakistanis is owing to their own helplessness.
g) Some of my close friends are hard-core anti-Modi people, but their entire reason for such hatred is the caste my friends are born into. i.e. Blinded by caste. Not sure how much to blame them, as (unfortunately) political economy has become so strong in India and everyone wants someone they know to be in power. Caste politics are one way to have someone your know occupying a chair.
h) Many years ago, I read in a pakistani newspaper that the seed of pakistan is born the day Aurangzeb defeated Dara Shikoh. (In my opinion) Indian intelligentia do not have the courage to dissect the reasons behind partition of India, and come to such conclusions, whether they are correct or wrong.
i) Many years ago, during my first visit to USA, there was a pakistani in my project, I told him that Pakistan is formed due to power struggle between Nehru and Jinnah. My reason is - I wanted to be popular, and took the easy approach on that topic (which by the way, many people I know still hold. Could be general opinion in India, although not sure).

You asked for examples; I gave you examples.

First question: what is your reaction to each of them?

As for the rest, let us go point by point. But let me ask you - what is your specific field of study? Medicine? Engineering? Any of the humanities? Where did you do your school finishing? Where did you do your first degree and what was it?
This is not a fishing expedition; I will connect every question to a final conclusion.

a) If I read *most* of the above points during my primary school, then I *completely* forgot them.

That's fine. What do you think, today, about each topic? How did you find out? What was the source?

 

[Wood]

It is a world wide phenomenon that as citizens get (relatively) richer, they start being more assertive etc leading to center-right.
BJP is the *only* center-right party in India.

I share this view for some time now. Think it is because the click bait media keeps telling the citizenry that they are great

 

[Joe Shearer]

I already received 2 warning points from moderator for writing somethings they don't like to see [even though, the points I made during both times are correct and recent]. So, I am careful on what I write.

You should always be careful. How does it affect what we have been discussing? Have the moderators told you that history is not to be discussed? Or something similar?

Indian history (used to) depresses me a lot....hence, I have previously read good amount of European history and American history [although I focus mostly on great leaders of the past of those continents].

Could i ask why?

Did India not have inspiring leaders?

What is the period that you were thinking about, when you felt depressed?

Sometime in my future, I want to read about Indian history.

Why not now? What stops you?

I can not imagine how RSS bought toxicity into history books, as they are never in power and were hounded for the most part of independent India.

Who told you that the RSS brought toxicity into history books? Did I say that? Have you read what I wrote carefully?

were hounded for the most part of independent India.

I am curious to know how they were hounded. Any examples?

were hounded for the most part of independent India.

I am curious to know how they were hounded. Any examples?

There is a reason why people are voting for Modi and is so popular - those reasons, I am sure many people including yourself will never accept.

What are those reasons? I have an analysis. It seems, however, that you ask a series of questions to others, get the answers, and then go behind a wall, alleging persecution, or the impossibility of getting heard, therefore, desirability of giving up.

Hence, no point in writing them here.

In that case, why ask others to explain their positions?
Do you think it fair to ask everybody else to explain themselves, then, when you are asked about your position, suddenly to find a reason to draw the shutters?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Also, this forum has extreme blind hatred for Modi + RSS. I believe - some of such extreme feelings from Pakistanis is owing to their own helplessness.

Again, a blank statement, but not the slightest effort to enquire.

If you don't have a point of view, if you don't question others' points of views, and understand them better, if you never try to explain to your people what you stand for, and why that is a good thing, why are you here?

some of such extreme feelings from Pakistanis is owing to their own helplessness.

I hate Modi and the RSS; is that because, like Pakistani members, I am helpless?

some of such extreme feelings from Pakistanis is owing to their own helplessness.

I hate Modi and the RSS; is that because, like Pakistani members, I am helpless?

Some of my close friends are hard-core anti-Modi people, but their entire reason for such hatred is the caste my friends are born into. i.e. Blinded by caste.

Please explain, with examples. Are they all Brahmins? or all Rajputs? Banias maybe? Are these the people blinded by caste?

some of such extreme feelings from Pakistanis is owing to their own helplessness.

I hate Modi and the RSS; is that because, like Pakistani members, I am helpless?

Some of my close friends are hard-core anti-Modi people, but their entire reason for such hatred is the caste my friends are born into. i.e. Blinded by caste.

Please explain, with examples. Are they all Brahmins? or all Rajputs? Banias maybe? Are these the people blinded by caste?

Not sure how much to blame them, as (unfortunately) political economy has become so strong in India and everyone wants someone they know to be in power. Caste politics are one way to have someone your know occupying a chair.

Do we take it that therefore you are today looking for people of your caste to get ahead in life? Is there nothing else that counts? Have you given up on the constitution? On laws and law and order? on the courts?

Many years ago, I read in a pakistani newspaper that the seed of pakistan is born the day Aurangzeb defeated Dara Shikoh. (In my opinion) Indian intelligentia do not have the courage to dissect the reasons behind partition of India, and come to such conclusions, whether they are correct or wrong.

So that newspaper report has set your opinion many years ago, and you do not even know whether that was a sensible remark or a stupid one. I think. If you do know, why not share it with us?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Many years ago, during my first visit to USA, there was a pakistani in my project, I told him that Pakistan is formed due to power struggle between Nehru and Jinnah. My reason is - I wanted to be popular, and took the easy approach on that topic (which by the way, many people I know still hold. Could be general opinion in India, although not sure).

I get it. The facts don't matter; playing to the gallery matters. Whatever sounds good to your audience is the best position to take.

wow

Was India ever a country.

Yes, this can be included.

Were there conflicts based on religion before British?
- Did muslims or hindus fought each other or fought together in an army?

Yes, I agree, these questions and their answers help form an opinion.

 

[jk007]

You should always be careful. How does it affect what we have been discussing? Have the moderators told you that history is not to be discussed? Or something similar?

Nope, I could not understand why they gave me warning point, as my comment was about Pak cricket. So, better be safe.

Could i ask why?

Did India not have inspiring leaders?

Does India have an equivalent of Churchill, who is able to foresee events and lead with extreme courage? I really like him (although many Indians including some of my friends hate him) or or Deng Xiaopeng??

When I was studing in Hyderabad, one of my senior (who completed studies) started looking for jobs. His experiences had a very very very deep deep impact on me. When I started digging into reasons of the state of economy etc, the conclusions I reached at are not pretty.

A recent event in India also impacted me a lot, my talks with 2 of my friends have helped me concile myself:
1st friend: We, Indians, should compare India with african nations, not with China etc. That is the best comparision. Such a thought made me feel so much relief.
2nd friend: He explained some books by Naipaul etc.....felt relief too.

What is the period that you were thinking about, when you felt depressed?

In general, I am not proud of Indian history (please please say that I am wrong).
I have fundamental questions on some books (did not read them in full), when they claim that India was x% of world GDP many many centuries ago. For the life of me, I am not sure how that can be possible. To be fair - I know very little.

Why not now? What stops you?

Reading other books + Job + intention to give some inheritance to my kids....

Who told you that the RSS brought toxicity into history books? Did I say that? Have you read what I wrote carefully?


I am curious to know how they were hounded. Any examples?

Sorry - I may have mis-read.

I have some examples, but they are non-specific , which means I do not recall the names of those involved. Hence, not easy to convince others.

Regarding hounded - I have some examples, but some of them are non-specific (meaning I do not remember the names of people involved).

 

[Joe Shearer]

Nope, I could not understand why they gave me warning point, as my comment was about Pak cricket. So, better be safe.

If I said you were hiding behind the Mods, pretending they are the reason for you not to speak, would that upset you?

 

[jk007]

You asked for examples; I gave you examples.

First question: what is your reaction to each of them?

I don't have much reaction, as I forgot / can not recall most of that history.

As for the rest, let us go point by point. But let me ask you - what is your specific field of study? Medicine? Engineering? Any of the humanities? Where did you do your school finishing? Where did you do your first degree and what was it?
This is not a fishing expedition; I will connect every question to a final conclusion.

Engineering. JNTU - Hyderabad (more than 2 decades ago).

That's fine. What do you think, today, about each topic? How did you find out? What was the source?

I forgot all those from my primary education.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Does India have an equivalent of Churchill, who is able to foresee events and lead with extreme courage? I really like him (although many Indians including some of my friends hate him) or or Deng Xiaopeng??

He killed 4 million Bengalis, so, yeah, I adore him.

Were Gandhi and Nehru road kill? Was Subhas Bose just a blue bag floating down the Nile?

 

[jk007]

If I said you were hiding behind the Mods, pretending they are the reason for you not to speak, would that upset you?

Nope, I do not get upset.