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Can Chinese System be the Ultimate Solution Against Radical Islam?

Malaysia is more advanced than Turkey.

Malaysia is not a perfect democracy in any sense. It has 5or6 monarch having constitutional protection in each state.
Even with just 70% muslims one cannot change their religion from Islam. Its a painful process as Muslims can be governed by Shariah courts alone, as per their country.

Do u know that is one of the few countries in the world having quotas for the majority?
 
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Malaysia is not a perfect democracy in any sense. It has 5or6 monarch having constitutional protection in each state.
Even with just 70% muslims one cannot change their religion from Islam. Its a painful process as Muslims can be governed by Shariah courts alone, as per their country.

Do u know that is one of the few countries in the world having quotas for the majority?

It's a big joke saying Malaysia is more advanced than Turkey. Even with all it's natural resources and shiny buildings/infrastructure, Malaysia is still a backward country by it's people mentality,laws and way of thinking.

Without the Chinese Malaysia will be just another useless Muslim country who doesn't produce anything but relies on it's oil/gas for survival.
I have been to Malaysia myself(though just for two weeks), I can attest to that myself. Malays should be very grateful to the ethnic Chinese instead of treating them like outliers with contempt,since without them their country will be just another backward radical Muslim country with nothing productive to show for. :agree:
 
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Starting from the Soviet military campaign on Afghanistan there is a surge in radical and militant Islamic ideologies and groups. After more than a decade long battle between the Western powers and radical Islamist groups there is no sign of weakening on the latter side.

On contrary, invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, and, Western backed Arab Spring seems to create an environment that is much more desired by radical groups in the Middle East. In 1980's they were bunch of bandits that no one took serious. Today they control 60% of Syria, around 20% of US Invaded Iraq. They are active in Afghanistan and are still controlling certain cities. They are also destabilizing Pakistan. Groups like Boko Haram in Nigeria are controlling around 10% of the country and destabilizing the neighbouring countries. They have a wide network of terror cells in Europe and US. They can find human resource from anywhere around the globe by radicalizing Muslims.

They are printing their own money. They are organized like a state. They make trade with neighbouring countries by means of smuggling. They are an organization that can continue armed insurgency in two different continents (Asia and Africa) and can make terror attacks on 3 different continents (Europe, North America and Australia). I think this is an unprecedented type of rogue power that the World has ever seen in the history of mankind.

Now the prognosis is bad as it can be seen. But what about the cure. As I've mentioned before Western powers are fighting with radical Islam for more than a decade now. They had limited success, if any. Some scholars even speculate that they've made it worse by destabilizing the established governments both by invasion in Iraq case or by arming Jihadist groups in Democratic Republic of Afghanistan case, or by sponsoring and legitimizing the adventerous revoluationary forces in the case of Arab Spring with the hope that the revolutionary forces will embrace Western Democracy.

I think it's clear that Turkey is one of the most advanced form of contemporary civilization that a Muslim majority country produced so far. Also it's clear that, this level of civilization was impossible to achieve if Turkey was not a constitutionally secular country. Of course remaining secular for Turkey was not easy. Turkish state and bureaucracy was very assertive against Islamist movement. Political Islam was banned and was a huge taboo in Turkish political life. Many politicians and journalists underwent trials for spreading political Islam. Some were even sentenced and served time in jail. All of those actions against political Islam were repeatedly condemned by European Union in the name of freedom of speech and freedom of religion. You and I both know the story when Turkish state became more "democratic" and stopped being assertive against political Islam. Today Turkey is struggling a lot for trying to keep it's secular foundations. Some scholars even speculate that secularism in Turkey is somewhat too damaged to be restored again.

There is not even one successful example of liberal democracy in a Muslim majority country. After liberalization of poltical Islam with the Western values like Freedom of Speech, sooner or later Islamic parties comes to power. Iran, Egypt, Libya, Afghanistan are good examples. Turkish Islamist movement is still somewhat more moderate because of the unique composition of cultural difference and 90 years of secular past. However AKP is still a political Islamist party that should not be governing in a functioning secular democracy.

As one can easily see secularism and democracy goes hand in hand. If a country can maintain certain levels of secularism that country can become more stable and democratic. However we've repeatedly experienced that with the Western school of thought Muslim majority countries wouldn't be able to become secular or democratic. However most important secularist and reformist movements in Muslim majority countries were nurtured by leftist ideologies and authoritarian governments. Good examples are single party CHP rule in Turkey, Baathist rule in Iraq and Syria, Soviet backed Socialist rule in Afghanistan, Reza Pahlavi rule in Iran, Mobarak rule in Egypt, Gaddafi rule in Libya. Of course there were so many atrocities in those eras. However I urged you to see the atrocities of ISIS. Compared to that those governments are very legitimate and modern.

That's why I think Western political philosophers should give legitimacy to certain types of authoritarian government reflexes. We all know that authoritarianism failed heavily in Europe. However in Muslim majority countries authoritarianism opened the way for huge reforms that wouldn't have been done in any other way. In China authoritarianism also made a huge success in terms of unifying the entire population and forming an economic system that lifted hundereds of millions of people above poverty line. Authoriterian, progressive, secular and rational type of governments can be a key to saving Muslim majority countries. Turkish government in pre-AKP period was also a good model in which there were elections but the state, judicial system and bureaucracy was very assertive against political Islamist movements.

So what you guys think about that?

Thanks bro, you are indeed one of the few rational Turkish posters out here.

But I do agree that some Chinese members of the PDF also need to calm down, and the outrageous statements like the nuclear warfare isn't going to happen in the real life.

The childish behaviors need to be stopped on both side.
 
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It's a big joke saying Malaysia is more advanced than Turkey. Even with all it's natural resources Malaysia is still a backward country by it's people mentality,laws and way of thinking.
Without the Chinese Malaysia will be just another useless Muslim country who doesn't produce anything but relies on it's oil/gas for survival.
I have been to Malaysia myself(though just for two weeks), I can attest to that myself. Malays should be very grateful to the ethnic Chinese instead of treating them like outliers with contempt,since without them their country will be just another backward radical Muslim country with nothing productive to show for. :agree:

Ya. I have a truck load of relations living in Malaysia and Singapore. I am a tamil u see.
My sister finisher her schooling just yesterday and was discussing her future plan , I was shocked to learn they have quotas for Malays :what: :sick:
They had quotas cos they werent able to compete with Chinese and Indians. If not for oil and rubber plantations, for which they are exploiting the forests of Borneo, they are a gone nation, with a Pakistan in midst of SE Asia. Its the 30-35% minorities holding up malaysia. Developed in monetory sense, underdeveloped in human thinking and laws
 
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Your article strike on the root of Turkey's problem but a lot of extremist or too nationalisticTurkish members will not admit this problem. Trust me , Turkey decades of success will go downhill if extremist and nationalism blind their vision.

But Erdogan rule Turkey more like an authoritarian. He is the wrong person to lead Turkey into the future.
Whatever others may say ,you are certainly right.

Ya. I have a truck load of relations living in Malaysia and Singapore. I am a tamil u see.
My sister finisher her schooling just yesterday and was discussing her future plan , I was shocked to learn they have quotas for Malays :what: :sick:
They had quotas cos they werent able to compete with Chinese and Indians. If not for oil and rubber plantations, for which they are exploiting the forests of Borneo, they are a gone nation, with a Pakistan in midst of SE Asia. Its the 30-35% minorities holding up malaysia. Developed in monetory sense, underdeveloped in human thinking and laws
You mean quotas of entrance of university ?

It is very weird. Malays is the majority ethnic group in Malay ,right ?

China gov gives that kind of quotas to the minority groups in China like Uyghurs/Miao/Zhuang.

It's a big joke saying Malaysia is more advanced than Turkey. Even with all it's natural resources and shiny buildings/infrastructure, Malaysia is still a backward country by it's people mentality,laws and way of thinking.

Without the Chinese Malaysia will be just another useless Muslim country who doesn't produce anything but relies on it's oil/gas for survival.
I have been to Malaysia myself(though just for two weeks), I can attest to that myself. Malays should be very grateful to the ethnic Chinese instead of treating them like outliers with contempt,since without them their country will be just another backward radical Muslim country with nothing productive to show for. :agree:
What you said hurts the self-esteem of Malay people badly .
 
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It's a big joke saying Malaysia is more advanced than Turkey. Even with all it's natural resources and shiny buildings/infrastructure, Malaysia is still a backward country by it's people mentality,laws and way of thinking.

Without the Chinese Malaysia will be just another useless Muslim country who doesn't produce anything but relies on it's oil/gas for survival.
I have been to Malaysia myself(though just for two weeks), I can attest to that myself. Malays should be very grateful to the ethnic Chinese instead of treating them like outliers with contempt,since without them their country will be just another backward radical Muslim country with nothing productive to show for. :agree:


Malaysia and Singapore should be part of Indonesia from the beginning, it was your folks who ruined our Confrontation and Nationalism Socialist agendas 8-)

@pr1v4t33r @Jakartans@PkDef
 
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this Vietnamese clown is know nothing about Chinese diaspora in South East Asia and their influence on economic in several upper tier of ASEAN countries.
 
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Whatever others may say ,you are certainly right.


You mean quotas of entrance of university ?

It is very weird. Malays is the majority ethnic group in Malay ,right ?

China gov gives that kind of quotas to the minority groups in China like Uyghurs/Miao/Zhuang.


What you said hurts the self-esteem of Malay people badly .

Same in India. We give reservation to socially dependent people. But Malays have reservations for themselves. :P

Check Bhumiputra policy
 
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Evil Cnese in ASEAN region like Pol Pot is the reason why MY treats Cnese ethnic as outlier

What you said is irrelevant to what mike said.

Same in India. We give reservation to socially dependent people. But Malays have reservations for themselves. :P

Check Bhumiputra policy
It shocks me that Malay people feel free to rely on such policy which is some kind of euthanasia .
 
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Starting from the Soviet military campaign on Afghanistan there is a surge in radical and militant Islamic ideologies and groups. After more than a decade long battle between the Western powers and radical Islamist groups there is no sign of weakening on the latter side.

On contrary, invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, and, Western backed Arab Spring seems to create an environment that is much more desired by radical groups in the Middle East. In 1980's they were bunch of bandits that no one took serious. Today they control 60% of Syria, around 20% of US Invaded Iraq. They are active in Afghanistan and are still controlling certain cities. They are also destabilizing Pakistan. Groups like Boko Haram in Nigeria are controlling around 10% of the country and destabilizing the neighbouring countries. They have a wide network of terror cells in Europe and US. They can find human resource from anywhere around the globe by radicalizing Muslims.

They are printing their own money. They are organized like a state. They make trade with neighbouring countries by means of smuggling. They are an organization that can continue armed insurgency in two different continents (Asia and Africa) and can make terror attacks on 3 different continents (Europe, North America and Australia). I think this is an unprecedented type of rogue power that the World has ever seen in the history of mankind.

Now the prognosis is bad as it can be seen. But what about the cure. As I've mentioned before Western powers are fighting with radical Islam for more than a decade now. They had limited success, if any. Some scholars even speculate that they've made it worse by destabilizing the established governments both by invasion in Iraq case or by arming Jihadist groups in Democratic Republic of Afghanistan case, or by sponsoring and legitimizing the adventerous revoluationary forces in the case of Arab Spring with the hope that the revolutionary forces will embrace Western Democracy.

I think it's clear that Turkey is one of the most advanced form of contemporary civilization that a Muslim majority country produced so far. Also it's clear that, this level of civilization was impossible to achieve if Turkey was not a constitutionally secular country. Of course remaining secular for Turkey was not easy. Turkish state and bureaucracy was very assertive against Islamist movement. Political Islam was banned and was a huge taboo in Turkish political life. Many politicians and journalists underwent trials for spreading political Islam. Some were even sentenced and served time in jail. All of those actions against political Islam were repeatedly condemned by European Union in the name of freedom of speech and freedom of religion. You and I both know the story when Turkish state became more "democratic" and stopped being assertive against political Islam. Today Turkey is struggling a lot for trying to keep it's secular foundations. Some scholars even speculate that secularism in Turkey is somewhat too damaged to be restored again.

There is not even one successful example of liberal democracy in a Muslim majority country. After liberalization of poltical Islam with the Western values like Freedom of Speech, sooner or later Islamic parties comes to power. Iran, Egypt, Libya, Afghanistan are good examples. Turkish Islamist movement is still somewhat more moderate because of the unique composition of cultural difference and 90 years of secular past. However AKP is still a political Islamist party that should not be governing in a functioning secular democracy.

As one can easily see secularism and democracy goes hand in hand. If a country can maintain certain levels of secularism that country can become more stable and democratic. However we've repeatedly experienced that with the Western school of thought Muslim majority countries wouldn't be able to become secular or democratic. However most important secularist and reformist movements in Muslim majority countries were nurtured by leftist ideologies and authoritarian governments. Good examples are single party CHP rule in Turkey, Baathist rule in Iraq and Syria, Soviet backed Socialist rule in Afghanistan, Reza Pahlavi rule in Iran, Mobarak rule in Egypt, Gaddafi rule in Libya. Of course there were so many atrocities in those eras. However I urged you to see the atrocities of ISIS. Compared to that those governments are very legitimate and modern.

That's why I think Western political philosophers should give legitimacy to certain types of authoritarian government reflexes. We all know that authoritarianism failed heavily in Europe. However in Muslim majority countries authoritarianism opened the way for huge reforms that wouldn't have been done in any other way. In China authoritarianism also made a huge success in terms of unifying the entire population and forming an economic system that lifted hundereds of millions of people above poverty line. Authoriterian, progressive, secular and rational type of governments can be a key to saving Muslim majority countries. Turkish government in pre-AKP period was also a good model in which there were elections but the state, judicial system and bureaucracy was very assertive against political Islamist movements.

So what you guys think about that?

What I think is that you have no idea about Islam and Muslims. Secularism is Muslim societies is bound to fail. Chinese system cannot also save you from Islam. Islam is far far more powerful and won't be defeated by these stupid systems weather Chinese's or western democracy.
 
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What I think is that you have no idea about Islam and Muslims. Secularism is Muslim societies is bound to fail. Chinese system cannot also save you from Islam. Islam is far far more powerful and won't be defeated by these stupid systems weather Chinese's or western democracy.


so far only secularist countries with dominant Muslim Population who hold a membership of G-20, Indonesia and Turky (and both of them had embrace secularism since the independent). Itself speak so much about the strength and important on how to differentiate between religion and state affair.
 
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Starting from the Soviet military campaign on Afghanistan there is a surge in radical and militant Islamic ideologies and groups. After more than a decade long battle between the Western powers and radical Islamist groups there is no sign of weakening on the latter side.

On contrary, invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, and, Western backed Arab Spring seems to create an environment that is much more desired by radical groups in the Middle East. In 1980's they were bunch of bandits that no one took serious. Today they control 60% of Syria, around 20% of US Invaded Iraq. They are active in Afghanistan and are still controlling certain cities. They are also destabilizing Pakistan. Groups like Boko Haram in Nigeria are controlling around 10% of the country and destabilizing the neighbouring countries. They have a wide network of terror cells in Europe and US. They can find human resource from anywhere around the globe by radicalizing Muslims.

They are printing their own money. They are organized like a state. They make trade with neighbouring countries by means of smuggling. They are an organization that can continue armed insurgency in two different continents (Asia and Africa) and can make terror attacks on 3 different continents (Europe, North America and Australia). I think this is an unprecedented type of rogue power that the World has ever seen in the history of mankind.

We might also look at this from an geopolitical context, like you provide examples in your text. There has always been radical Islamic terrorism but it was just that, sporadic and more or less contained. The problem was manageable. I guess the Arab Spring opened the Pandora's box. Take Libya for example. Bringing down Gaddafi was a terrible idea as was voiced by many at the time. All the said terrorist groups including Bako Haram and al-Shabab turned war lords upon the spoils of Libyan Army. And the examples can be multiplied.

But, as you pointed out, there might be very local, historical root causes of the whole problem in the Middle East, and in particular, with respect to politicized Islam.

Also it's clear that, this level of civilization was impossible to achieve if Turkey was not a constitutionally secular country.

Definitely agreed.

Today Turkey is struggling a lot for trying to keep it's secular foundations. Some scholars even speculate that secularism in Turkey is somewhat too damaged to be restored again.

I am curious about your own assessment? Do you think, with now AKP having almost half of the popular support, it is possible to restore secularism in its true sense?

That's why I think Western political philosophers should give legitimacy to certain types of authoritarian government reflexes. We all know that authoritarianism failed heavily in Europe. However in Muslim majority countries authoritarianism opened the way for huge reforms that wouldn't have been done in any other way. In China authoritarianism also made a huge success in terms of unifying the entire population and forming an economic system that lifted hundereds of millions of people above poverty line. Authoriterian, progressive, secular and rational type of governments can be a key to saving Muslim majority countries. Turkish government in pre-AKP period was also a good model in which there were elections but the state, judicial system and bureaucracy was very assertive against political Islamist movements.

I guess secularism is a virtue by itself, not conditioned to authoritarian rule. Secular lifestyle/governance predates democracy. But, as you pointed out, in the Middle East, secularism appears to be a byproduct of authoritarianism, that's as true for Ataturk's Turkey as Hafez Assad's Syria.

The problem I see in Islamic states is that secularism has never been innate in those cultures. In this case, once the national environment becomes tolerant of competitive politics, then, the hibernating Islamic movements (which prove to be extremely resilient) take control of the state incrementally. Then, I agree with your proposition, that a mild form of secular authoritarianism is imperative until secular lifestyle becomes a cultural norm.

This would not rule out an open political environment, but, a supervision of the secular constitution by a high body. In Turkey, that was supposed to be the military and high court. For some (again in the global context) reason, the army in Turkey, which was seen as the guardian of the secular republic, has been brutally purged and tamed.

A democratically elected party coming to power in a liberal democracy can also cause huge problems.

I guess, in the context of Islamic nations, the root cause for this tendency is a lack of secular lifestyle. Political governance can be carried out under various models, be it Scandinavian, bicameral, parliamentarian, or meritocratic if the public life is secular. If secularism is missing, then, even pure democracy will lead to oppression. In the specific case of Turkey, then, again, I would be in favor of good governance regardless of the name of the system that paid authoritarian attention to the restoration, protection and advancement of secular thinking. Ataturk started the enlightenment project but it seems it fell short. Somebody, some group has to pick it up from he left off.
 
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so far only secularist countries with dominant Muslim Population who hold a membership of G-20, Indonesia and Turky (and both of them had embrace secularism since the independent). Itself speak so much about the strength and important on how to differentiate between religion and state affair.
Islam can never be differentiated from state those who think so than sorry to say but their knowledge of Islam is worse than that of Abu Juhal. Islam is a complete system that is why all enemies of Islam in time of PROPHET SAW attacked it.
 
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Islam can never be differentiated from state those who think so than sorry to say but their knowledge of Islam is worse than that of Abu Juhal. Islam is a complete system that is why all enemies of Islam in time of PROPHET SAW attacked it.

The one who thinking without using her/his brain wisely is the one who deemed to fail miserably. Even Muhammand SAW advising the Muslims to read and consul between them (ulama and leader assembly) before acting and make a decision for the population that's a true spirit of statehood and how Islam is differentiate between Islam as a State or Nation and Islam as Religion. Even Umar Bin Khattab always make consul before make an important decision with regard as Muslim Community.

The people like you is who bring Islam as culture and halts if not bring all of Islam world advancement into utter ruin and never progressed as other culture in this modern day and age.
 
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The one who thinking without using her/his brain wisely is the one who deemed to fail miserably. Even Muhammand SAW advising the Muslims to read and consul between them (ulama and leader assembly) before acting and make a decision for the population that's a true spirit of statehood and how Islam is differentiate between Islam as a State or Nation and Islam as Religion. Even Umar Bin Khattab always make consul before make an important decision with regard as Muslim Community.

The people like you is who bring Islam as culture and halts if not bring all of Islam world advancement into utter ruin and never progressed as other culture in this modern day and age.
Islam takes the lead in every matter and also matters of state and it would take lead everywhere sooner or later weather in Indonesia or Turkey. Islam dominates all matters it would be culture which would have come under Islamic guidelines and also state.
 
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