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Can an Islamic State be Secular?

^^^^^^^^^ Bhai ji , put ur flame suit on. U are about to get smoked by the secularists & agnostic Pakistanis.

I have documents and Proofs of history to speak upon , they have got their groundless claims with no Proofs .

I can handle a dozen secularists single handedly on this matter:coffee:
 
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The Constitution of Pakistan segregates its citizens on the basis of religion and provides preferential treatment to Muslims. For example, Article 2 of the Constitution declares Islam as “the State religion of Pakistan” and recognises the Holy Qur‘an and the Sunnah as “the supreme law and source of guidance for legislation to be administered through laws enacted by the Parliament and Provincial Assemblies, and for policy making by the Government”. Similarly, Article 41(2) says that only a Muslim can become president. Last but not least, Article 260 recognises two distinct categories of people, “Muslim” and “Non-Muslim,” thereby facilitating and encouraging discrimination on the basis of religion.

The constitution is so clearly one-sided in giving preferential treatment to majority Muslims that even a Hindu judge had to take the oath of office in the name of “Allah”. On 24 March 2007, Justice Rana Bhagwandas, as the senior-most judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan, was sworn in as Acting Chief Justice of Pakistan after the suspension of the incumbent Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry. When Justice Bhagwandas was sworn in, he had to recite the Qur‘anic prayer: “May Allah Almighty help and guide me, (A'meen)”.

The Pakistan Penal Code, in particular Section 295-A, Section 295-B, Section 295-C, Section 298-A and Section 298-B, imposes harsh punishment for alleged blasphemy. These blasphemy laws undermine other major provisions of the Constitution of Pakistan such as the fundamental right to “profess, practice and propagate” one’s religion (Article 20), the principle of equality before the law and the equal protection of the law to all citizens (Article 25), as well as the “legitimate rights and interests of minorities” (Article 36).

Blasphemy laws

Historically, the most far-reaching steps towards Islamisation were taken during President Zia-ul-Haq administration (1977 to 1988). Under his rule, a number of Islamic laws were introduced and a judicial body was set up to review all existing laws as to their agreement with Islamic principles. Laws and orders passed during the martial law years under President Zia-ul-Haq, including those governing religious offences, were placed outside the scope of judicial review by the Eighth Constitutional Amendment of 1985.

The blasphemy provisions of the Penal Code have been widely abused and misused to target minorities and sometimes settle personal scores among the Muslims. Even after acquittal by the courts, those who had to face blasphemy charges still live in fear.

Amendments of laws relating to religious offences in the Pakistan Penal Code brought about under President Zia differ significantly from earlier laws in at least four ways. They do not specifically mention malicious intent to hurt religious sensitivities as a condition for criminal offence and provide for significantly increased penalties. They make specific reference to Islam whilst earlier laws were intended to protect the religious sentiments of "any class of persons". A distinct shift in emphasis is noticeable: the new sections of the Penal Code do not make it a criminal offence to injure the religious feelings of Muslims, but rather define the offence in terms of insult or affront to Islam itself. The offences consist in defiling or insulting the prophet of Islam, his companions and family members and desecrating the Koran.

Other forms of discrimination against Christians

The widespread economic, social, legal and cultural discrimination against Christians is the main issue that needs to be addressed in Pakistan.

Land and properties, including places of worship, owned by Christians have been forcibly seized. Minorities have been denied equal treatment and protection by law enforcement personnel.

Kidnapping, rape and forced marriage of Christian and Hindu girls is a common practice. Should a Muslim man be arrested for such a crime, all he has to do is produce a certificate issued by any Muslim seminary claiming that the kidnapped girls have voluntarily adopted Islam and married the accused. The courts generally do not consider the fact that most of the girls are under age and simply accept the validity of the certificate of conversion without making any additional inquiry.

In some areas of the North-West Frontier Province, various Taliban groups have started to apply the Jizya, a tax imposed only on non-Muslims. At the same time, members of the Sikh, Hindu and Christian communities have been kidnapped for hefty ransoms.

On 6 February 1997, a mob of about 30,000 Muslims attacked a Christian village called Shantinagar, near Khanewal City, in Punjab Province. They set on fire the whole village, including many Churches. The spark that caused the assault was a blasphemy case involving a Christian who was charged under Section 295-B of the Pakistan Penal Code.

On 12 November 2005, another angry mob of some 2,000 Muslims vandalised and set fire to three Churches, a nuns’ convent, two Catholic schools, the homes of a Protestant clergyman and a Catholic priest, a girls’ hostel and the homes of Christian residents in the village of Sangla Hill in Nankana District, in Punjab. The attack was sparked by an alleged case of blasphemy involving a local Christian, also under section 295-B of the Pakistan Penal Code.

On 8 May 200, many Christian families reportedly fled their homes after they received a threatening letter from Islamic militants at Charsada in the North-West Frontier Province. In it, they were summoned to convert to Islam within 10 days or face dire consequences. In June 2007, Christians in Shantinagar village, Khanewal District, in Punjab received similar threats. In such cases, police have often failed to provide adequate protection.

On 22 April 2009, a gang of armed extremists attacked a group of Christians in Tiasar Town, a Karachi suburb, setting six houses on fire and seriously injuring three Christians. One of them was Irfan Masih, whose injuries were serious from the beginning and who died five days later.

On 30 June 2009, angry Muslims attacked Christian homes in Bahmani wala village, Kasur District, in Punjab, after another Christian was accused of blaspheming against Islam’s prophet. They damaged about 100 houses and stole valuables (gold jewellery) and cash. The mob also smashed furniture and other household items.

On 1 July 2009, a Christian youth, Imran Masih, was tortured by a group of Muslims and then arrested by local police for allegedly burning pages of the Qur‘an in Faisalabad’s Hajwary area.

On 30 July 2009, thousands of Muslim fundamentalists descended upon the village of Koriyan where they set 51 Christian homes on fire after another case of alleged blasphemy. Two days later, on 1 August, at least 3,000 extremists went after the Christian community in Gojra. Seven people were burnt to death (including two children and three women), and another 19 were injured. Dozens of houses were also set on fire.

These incidents illustrate the kind of abuse and the far-reaching consequences of the blasphemy laws; too many times, they have been used to justify violence against others.

These incidents tell us what can happen to particular sections of society. However, Muslims too have been victimised by these laws over the past 20 years. Therefore, the situation calls for a serious and long-term remedy.

According to data collected by the National Commission for Justice and Peace (NCJP), a human rights organisation of the Catholic Church of Pakistan, at least 964 persons have been accused on the basis of these laws between 1986 and August 2009. They include 479 Muslims, 119 Christians, 340 Ahmadis, 14 Hindus and 10 of unknown religion.

Angry mobs or individuals were responsible for 32 extrajudicial killings.

PAKISTAN Pakistani Christians, from freedom to persecution - Asia News
 
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The title is a bit of an oxymoron. A Muslim country might theoretically be secular, a Islamic state once established as such could never really be secular.



I truly do not want Pakistan to become a Bikini Land but a place where everyone has freedoms of all kind while taking care of their Religious and Cultural values.

This from a guy living in Australia - the original bikini land.:woot: It's possible that being in Australia he might be more open to even the bikinis being left at home. Maybe that's what he meant when he said that he was against bikinis.:azn::rofl:

Come to think of it, this is usually the problem. Most people want others banned from seeing & doing things that they themselves are enjoying. ( maybe reluctantly??:woot::cheesy:, I mean it must be difficult to bear the sight of all these women in bikinis but hey someone has to do the tough job for the welfare of the rest.:lol:)
 
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The title is a bit of an oxymoron. A Muslim country might theoretically be secular, a Islamic state once established as such could never really be secular.





This from a guy living in Australia - the original bikini land.:woot: It's possible that being in Australia he might be more open to even the bikinis being left at home. Maybe that's what he meant when he said that he was against bikinis.:azn::rofl:

Come to think of it, this is usually the problem. Most people want others banned from seeing & doing things that they themselves are enjoying. ( maybe reluctantly??:woot::cheesy:, I mean it must be difficult to bear the sight of all these women in bikinis but hey someone has to do the tough job for the welfare of the rest.:lol:)

Next time come up with something humane.
 
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Can an Islamic State be Secular ? No. You can't choose to integrate Islam into your government and still remain secular. You can only do what Turkey does to become a majority Muslim state that is also secular. All other ways will not work.

Being a Islamic secular state makes no sense. You are one a Islamic state or two a Secular state. When you try to mix some of this and some of that you start to run into major problems.

I think Mr. Jinnah tried to appeal to everyone and maybe wanted a secular state but currently i don't see Pakistan as one.


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Can an ISLAMIC state be secular? - No, by its very definition. The examples cited from the Prophet's life are examples of tolerance and is essentially 'liberalism'. Not of secularism.

So the correct question should be, can an ISLAMIC state be tolerant? - Sure; the Prophet's life is the evidence.

On the other hand, a MUSLIM state can very much be secular in the true and correct sense of the word.

PS: Damn you Bang Galore. You beat me to it
 
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I think we should first define Secularism. Any thing that is argued upon, if not properly defined, will result in nothing but wastage of time.


PS. Are we suppose to discuss this on this forum... I thought religious discussion wasn't allowed.
 
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I think we should first define Secularism. Any thing that is argued upon, if not properly defined, will result in nothing but wastage of time.


PS. Are we suppose to discuss this on this forum... I thought religious discussion wasn't allowed.

In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and the right to freedom from governmental imposition of religion upon the people within a state that is neutral on matters of belief. (See also Separation of church and state and Laïcité.) In another sense, it refers to the view that human activities and decisions, especially political ones, should be based on evidence and fact unbiased by religious influence


Among the first to delineate the nature of a secular society, D. L. Munby characterizes a secular society as one which:

1. Refuses to commit itself as a whole to any one view of the nature of the universe and the role of man in it.
2. Is not homogenous, but is pluralistic.
3. Is tolerant. It widens the sphere of private decision-making.
4. While every society must have some common aims, which implies there must be agreed on methods of problem-solving, and a common framework of law; in a secular society these are as limited as possible.
5. Problem solving is approached rationally, through examination of the facts. While the secular society does not set any overall aim, it helps its members realize their aims.
6. Is a society without any official images. Nor is there a common ideal type of behavior with universal application.

Positive Ideals behind the secular society

1. Deep respect for individuals and the small groups of which they are a part.
2. Equality of all people.
3. Each person should be helped to realize their particular excellence.
4. Breaking down of the barriers of class and caste


Secular ethics is a branch of moral philosophy in which ethics is based solely on human faculties such as logic, reason or moral intuition, and not derived from purported supernatural revelation or guidance (which is the source of religious ethics). Secular ethics can be seen as a wide variety of moral and ethical systems drawing heavily on humanism, secularism and freethinking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism
 
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Hi,
First off there are very few states in the world which are actually Islamic & Pakistan is definitely not one of those states, i can give countless examples to prove my point but i guess things will be too obvious when people living in Pakistan will compare Pakistan with Islamic states like Iran, Saudi Arabia etc, they will understand on their own. The present so called Democratic government of Pakistan which has survived so far is all at the behest of NRO which only guarantees safeguards for rich & powerful culprits, this very much signifies that how the interests of the ruling class in Pakistan are repugnant to the injunctions of Islam.

Secondly only those with feeble knowledge love to argue that Mr. Jinnah only wanted a secular Pakistan by citing his speech of August 11, 1947 in which he said that "everybody was free to go to their respective religious places". However there are numerous occasions where Mr Jinnah said that
Islam was going to guide the policies of the new state. In a message to the Frontier Muslim Students Federation on June 18, 1945 he says, “Pakistan not only means freedom and independence but the Muslim ideology which has to be preserved, which has come to us as a precious gift and treasure and which, we hope, others will share with us.” In his presidential address to the All India Muslim League on March 23, 1940, he invokes Islam as the basis of inspiration for action. He stated, “Come forward as servants of Islam, organise the people economically, socially, educationally and politically and I am sure that you will be a power that will be accepted by everybody.”

If Pakistan is in trouble today its not because we are not truly secular its because we are not even loyal to the teachings of Islam.
 
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Hi,
First off there are very few states in the world which are actually Islamic & Pakistan is definitely not one of those states, i can give countless examples to prove my point but i guess things will be too obvious when people living in Pakistan will compare Pakistan with Islamic states like Iran, Saudi Arabia etc, they will understand on their own. The present so called Democratic government of Pakistan which has survived so far is all at the behest of NRO which only guarantees safeguards for rich & powerful culprits, this very much signifies that how the interests of the ruling class in Pakistan are repugnant to the injunctions of Islam.

Secondly only those with feeble knowledge love to argue that Mr. Jinnah only wanted a secular Pakistan by citing his speech of August 11, 1947 in which he said that "everybody was free to go to their respective religious places". However there are numerous occasions where Mr Jinnah said that
Islam was going to guide the policies of the new state. In a message to the Frontier Muslim Students Federation on June 18, 1945 he says, “Pakistan not only means freedom and independence but the Muslim ideology which has to be preserved, which has come to us as a precious gift and treasure and which, we hope, others will share with us.” In his presidential address to the All India Muslim League on March 23, 1940, he invokes Islam as the basis of inspiration for action. He stated, “Come forward as servants of Islam, organise the people economically, socially, educationally and politically and I am sure that you will be a power that will be accepted by everybody.”

If Pakistan is in trouble today its not because we are not truly secular its because we are not even loyal to the teachings of Islam.

Good point but officially Pakistan is a Islamic state. Maybe not in practice as you point out. You became a Islamic state in 73 when Islam went from the official religion to the state religion.
 
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I think some people here are mixing up a Islamic democracy if that term makes sense with secularism. They are not the same at all.
 
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It is not offensive at all.

The point is , there is no Islamic sate in this world! That is a fact.
If there were to be, then it wont be secular in any sense.
A central religious council is a necessity in an Islamic society to ensure there is no confusion and for the sake of uniformity.

But rights and duties of minorities have to be protected even in Islamic state. That is a command, not an option.

I think Islamic state means muslim majority state.

Fatwa is direct challenge to the states judiciary and law enforcement authority.
 
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