Call for Beijing to work with Taiwan to reunify in Chinese-style democracy

[Wholegrain]

The CCP is leading China to a better country, this is a fact. Besides, we are now living in one of the best period in Chinese history. We can't let any factor to destroy the hard-won achievement we have gained. The CCP is indeed bad, but can you even replace it and do better than it? If you don't have any good idea how to solve the serious issues within the government such as corruption, then you better let them be that way and stop causing troubles like those 義和團 and 太平賊.

Fighting against rapists and murderers is "causing trouble"?

 

[sahaliyan]

Fighting against rapists and murderers is "causing trouble"?

Boxer rebels were surely thugs and savages,what they did?Kill the Chinese Christans,destroy the railroads and modern productions,if those actions were surely barbaric

 

[Wholegrain]

Boxer rebels were surely thugs and savages,what they did?Kill the Chinese Christans,destroy the railroads and modern productions,if those actions were surely barbaric

The western imperialists granted anyone who converted to Christianity immunity from the law in China. So many criminals converted to Christianity since they would be under the protection of the imperialist powers. Those "Christians" sided with the western imperialist rapist murderers who raped and killed thousands of innocent civilians.

The railroads were built for foreign use. The western imperialists used those railroads to transport their soldiers accross China, after the Boxers destroyed the railroad linking Beijing with Tianjin, the Imperialist Eight Nation Alliance Army was forced to travel on foot. (Eight Nation Alliance= Britain, Japan, America, Russia, France, Germany, Austria and Italy)

The Boxers also destroyed the telegraph line which the imperialists were using to send messages.

When the Eight Nation Alliance reached Langfang on foot on June 18 1900, two Hui Muslim Generals Ma Fuxiang and his brother General Ma Fulu joined with the Boxers to ambush and beat the crap out of them . They then fled like cowards back to Tianjin.

On their second attempt to get to Beijing, they were also forced to travel on foot. Heavy casualties were inflicted upon them at Yangcun and Beicang, they lost even more soldiers than the Qing army at Beicang. At Beijing dozens of them were killed in battle and General Ma Fulu was martyred.

The only barbarians were the western imperialists and their colonial armies, including the Vietnamese who served in the French colonial armed forces and the British Indian Army. And the Japanese too. The Japanese and Vietnamese sided with their western colonialist masters in their attack and we will never forget this.

Anyone who calls for brotherhood with Japanese and insults our minorities like the Hui can f*** themselves, that includes several people on this forum. Namely Okemos. And outsiders like East Asia United can f**** off and mind their own business, don't tell us how to deal with our minorities. My family knew them in Taiwan while Okemos uses internet blogs and comments to tell us about them, LOL.

 

[sahaliyan]

The real heroes of Boxer rebellion were people like 聂士成 et al,they fought for the country against the Eight Nation Alliance Army ,but the so-called Patriot Boxer thugs attacked them behind

 

[Wholegrain]

The real heroes of Boxer rebellion were people like 聂士成 et al,they fought for the country against the Eight Nation Alliance Army ,but the so-called Patriot Boxer thugs attacked them behind

No, Nie attacked the Boxers first because of the traitor Ronglu's orders, who wanted to save the westerrn imperialists.

 

[NiceGuy]

The only barbarians were the western imperialists and their colonial armies, including the Vietnamese who served in the French colonial armed forces and the British Indian Army. And the Japanese too. The Japanese and Vietnamese sided with their western colonialist masters in their attack and we will never forget this.
.

Oh, so we attacked u too ?? good news, u reap what u sow

 

[Wholegrain]

Oh, so we attacked u too ?? good news, u reap what u sow

This is what you were known for:

Warriors of the Rising Sun: A History of the Japanese Military - Robert B. Edgerton - Google Books

and the French had so little confidence in the poorly trained Indo-Chinese infantry, which represented almost all of their force, that they were in no hurry to start.

Warriors of the Rising Sun: A History of the Japanese Military - Robert B. Edgerton - Google Books

the French would contribute nothing, except to mistakenly fire on their allies now and then

 

[NiceGuy]

This is what you were known for:

Warriors of the Rising Sun: A History of the Japanese Military - Robert B. Edgerton - Google Books



Warriors of the Rising Sun: A History of the Japanese Military - Robert B. Edgerton - Google Books

whatever, thats history now, and we wont make the same mistake to let any country to invade us any more.

Poor China, big mouth but coward, thats why she cant take back TW untill now

 

[FlowerSummer]

May i ask you what your "perfect" China looks like ?

Personally i support the current CCP government not based on any communist ideology. If you read my post on economic matters its quite the opposite of communism. I support them based on the fact that they have been able to lift hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and ended starvation in China and has build a infrastructure, industrial and science base for China that was previously unimaginable.

I'm not blind to the downside of their rule like corruption, power abuse, repression and many other things. But this is still the best that the Chinese have had since a very long time. And despite of these things the country is still progressing. Yes' the economy is now beginning to show cracks but if they take the right measures the country could come out of it stronger.

As for Taiwan i'm perfectly happy with the current status quo. I don't think there will be a war if Taiwan doesn't declare formal independence.

Actually I dont dream "perfect" China, because I am not a communist who dreaming about communist utopia, I can only dream a "better" China.

Personally I do not support, but I do tolerate CCP, because I know now its not the time to change. And nope, I dont think the current day achievement of China are all thanks to CCP. Its all thanks to chinese people and those from the oversea who help us, particulary the oversea chinese. In my opinion, when the chinese people do not create unneccesary conflict among themselves because influenced by some imported tools and work towards a better future using whatever tools they have without obsession on one particular imported tools, china will progress and achieve great things, even when they are lead by idiots. That is why when Deng "black cat white cat" end the stupid class struggle and continuous revolution mentality inspired by you know who, the economic reformation and one child policy can be implemented without much opposition, despite all the flaws bring along with them.

But every time I tell myself now is not the time, then when is the time? A decade later? Maybe 2? Or 3? Or... never, because you know what? CCP OWNS CHINA, and CCP can do whatever it wants to the country without chinese people consent. Of course, all will be done in the name FOR A BETTER CHINA, SO PLEASE SACRIFICE FOR CHINA OR LEAVE CHINA!

This slogan actually works, no doubt. It works from my grandfather generation till now, me, and I am fine with that. But shall I sacrifice my whole life for china, so that my children and my grandchildren can CONTINUOSLY SACRIFICE THEMSELVES GLORIOUSLY FOR CHINA? Or worse, they will actually CONTINUOSLY SACRIFICE THEMSELVES GLORIOUSLY FOR CCP?

CCP=communism=China is actually a very dangerous mentality, because when it combine with "sacrifice yourself for china, or you are a traitor", which is originally what we use now to convince ourselves to sacrifice for our motherland, will be easily distort into "sacrifice yourself for CCP, or you are a traitor", at the hands on a certain group of people. Or even worse, its "sacrifice yourself for communism, or you are a traitor", which is what exactly happened during cultural revolution. It is actually suprisingly easy to achieve, because now we have countless of braindead CCP zealot roaming around china, or even around the world. If you ask them "what if you can only choose one, communism or china?", they will definitely say bullshit! Because they cant even imagine China without CCP, or more precisely, a single ruling chinese party that did not preach communism left and right all day long. For them, party, government and country are actually the same thing.

Of course you can say all of these are guesswork, CCP are perfect and saint and they will not commit any mistake, ever! Well but we do have a cultural revolution in the past, and that was follow closely after the great leap forward. Not to mention what happening now in north korea. If you ask me did these "society and tecnology advancement" worth it or not? I will say no, because ideologies are tools, and tools are made to use, not preach or even worship as one and only ultimate truth of the universe. What made it even worse is this tool that cause countless death of my fellow countrymen, and the lost of countless traditional arts and culture, is actually an imported tool.

Following my above statement, I definitely do not wish china having 2 political party arguing with each other, or even killing each other, just to prove their RESPECTIVE MADE BY WESTERN IMPORTED TOOLS are more superior than the other, which is just like what happened during the civil war, and now.

So the 1st step to avoid these, is to actually create a new party devoid of any ideology allignment, meaning it is not ideology centric, especially not western ideology centric. This of course doesnt mean that this party cannot use communism or democracy, but rather the opposite, they can use both, depending the country current situation, and most importantly, adjusting according to the consent of the people. This actually allows the party do not fall into a self-imposed restriction, whereby they doesnt only use a very limited "tools" for governing. Of course there is also a clear, fair and functional constitution to ensure the party do not "kidnap" the government or even the country, and grant the people human rights, freedom of speech, belief and expression to form a functional counter check on the government.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Personally i support the current CCP government not based on any communist ideology. If you read my post on economic matters its quite the opposite of communism. I support them based on the fact that they have been able to lift hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and ended starvation in China and has build a infrastructure, industrial and science base for China that was previously unimaginable.

Same here

I don't believe in communism at all.

But I support the CCP, because they are the best practical way to strengthen/develop China, and return China and Chinese civilization to a position of power in the world.

They have lifted more people out of poverty than any other government in the entire history of the world. They are building up China in a way that I could not even believe. For that they have earned my support.

 

[BigDaddyWatch]

Actually I dont dream "perfect" China, because I am not a communist who dreaming about communist utopia, I can only dream a "better" China.

Personally I do not support, but I do tolerate CCP, because I know now its not the time to change. And nope, I dont think the current day achievement of China are all thanks to CCP. Its all thanks to chinese people and those from the oversea who help us, particulary the oversea chinese. In my opinion, when the chinese people do not create unneccesary conflict among themselves because influenced by some imported tools and work towards a better future using whatever tools they have without obsession on one particular imported tools, china will progress and achieve great things, even when they are lead by idiots. That is why when Deng "black cat white cat" end the stupid class struggle and continuous revolution mentality inspired by you know who, the economic reformation and one child policy can be implemented without much opposition, despite all the flaws bring along with them.

But every time I tell myself now is not the time, then when is the time? A decade later? Maybe 2? Or 3? Or... never, because you know what? CCP OWNS CHINA, and CCP can do whatever it wants to the country without chinese people consent. Of course, all will be done in the name FOR A BETTER CHINA, SO PLEASE SACRIFICE FOR CHINA OR LEAVE CHINA!

This slogan actually works, no doubt. It works from my grandfather generation till now, me, and I am fine with that. But shall I sacrifice my whole life for china, so that my children and my grandchildren can CONTINUOSLY SACRIFICE THEMSELVES GLORIOUSLY FOR CHINA? Or worse, they will actually CONTINUOSLY SACRIFICE THEMSELVES GLORIOUSLY FOR CCP?

CCP=communism=China is actually a very dangerous mentality, because when it combine with "sacrifice yourself for china, or you are a traitor", which is originally what we use now to convince ourselves to sacrifice for our motherland, will be easily distort into "sacrifice yourself for CCP, or you are a traitor", at the hands on a certain group of people. Or even worse, its "sacrifice yourself for communism, or you are a traitor", which is what exactly happened during cultural revolution. It is actually suprisingly easy to achieve, because now we have countless of braindead CCP zealot roaming around china, or even around the world. If you ask them "what if you can only choose one, communism or china?", they will definitely say bullshit! Because they cant even imagine China without CCP, or more precisely, a single ruling chinese party that did not preach communism left and right all day long. For them, party, government and country are actually the same thing.

Of course you can say all of these are guesswork, CCP are perfect and saint and they will not commit any mistake, ever! Well but we do have a cultural revolution in the past, and that was follow closely after the great leap forward. Not to mention what happening now in north korea. If you ask me did these "society and tecnology advancement" worth it or not? I will say no, because ideologies are tools, and tools are made to use, not preach or even worship as one and only ultimate truth of the universe. What made it even worse is this tool that cause countless death of my fellow countrymen, and the lost of countless traditional arts and culture, is actually an imported tool.

Following my above statement, I definitely do not wish china having 2 political party arguing with each other, or even killing each other, just to prove their RESPECTIVE MADE BY WESTERN IMPORTED TOOLS are more superior than the other, which is just like what happened during the civil war, and now.

So the 1st step to avoid these, is to actually create a new party devoid of any ideology allignment, meaning it is not ideology centric, especially not western ideology centric. This of course doesnt mean that this party cannot use communism or democracy, but rather the opposite, they can use both, depending the country current situation, and most importantly, adjusting according to the consent of the people. This actually allows the party do not fall into a self-imposed restriction, whereby they doesnt only use a very limited "tools" for governing. Of course there is also a clear, fair and functional constitution to ensure the party do not "kidnap" the government or even the country, and grant the people human rights, freedom of speech, belief and expression to form a functional counter check on the government.

What are the people of China today sacrificing for the CCP or China ? When a person from the country side goes to the city to work on a construction site or a assembly line that person is not doing it for the glory of the CCP or China but rather they are doing it so that they themselves or atleast their childrens can have a better live. They have the choice they can either stay in the country side or they can try to find work in the cities. No one is being forced to go to work in the cities.

Yes, the current achievements are from the hardwork of the Chinese people but good government policies over the past 35 years has played a part too.

And as far as China being "Communist" that period ended with the economic reforms back in the late 1970's. As for Communist ideological zealots they still exists but they are a small minority and current direction and policies of China certainly don't reflect their idea's.

The CCP doesn't own China. They have to be responsive to the need of the people and they are judged by their performence.

Having said all that i do know and acknowledge their shortcomings past present and most likely future. I guess everyone in the end has to make up their own balance of things and for me at this point in time atleast the balance of the CCP in China still falls in the positive.

 

[gambit]

So the 1st step to avoid these, is to actually create a new party devoid of any ideology allignment,...

That is not possible. If anything, given the human nature, what you want for China is impossible.

I said it before and will say it again: We do not live in an intellectual and moral vacuum. Everything we do, even biological actions, are motivated by a need and/or a want. We eat because of hunger, drink because of thirst, and war because of an irreconcilable difference.

It is impossible for a political party to be completely devoid of an ideological (moral) true north, so to speak. Even a monarchy still needs to claim some sort of moral justification for its existence, least of all historical continuance through the country's and the people's institutional memory, generation after generation. Anything can serve as an ideological true north, from religion to money, and today we see those extremes being played out across the world's countries. For religion, we have the Islamism in the ME. For money, we have Russia.

If what you say is intellectually, and equally important emotionally, possible, then China would have done it after Mao's death, or when the Soviet Union collapsed and left China the lone standard bearer of an utterly failed ideology when applied. Yes, I said emotionally because it is always the passion (heart) that motivates people to act to propagate and sustain what they believe (intellect) to be worthwhile and appropriate for their country and fellow countrymen.

Instead, what the world sees in China is a country being led by non-believing believers of an ideology abandoned in practice but retained in justification in order to keep itself in power. The world sees the facade in the CCP and accepts that facade because China needs that facade precisely because of the basic human need for an ideological true north. That need is more subtle and powerful than you think.

 

[FlowerSummer]

What are the people of China today sacrificing for the CCP or China ? When a person from the country side goes to the city to work on a construction site or a assembly line that person is not doing it for the glory of the CCP or China but rather they are doing it so that they themselves or atleast their childrens can have a better live. They have the choice they can either stay in the country side or they can try to find work in the cities. No one is being forced to go to work in the cities.

Yes, the current achievements are from the hardwork of the Chinese people but good government policies over the past 35 years has played a part too.

And as far as China being "Communist" that period ended with the economic reforms back in the late 1970's. As for Communist ideological zealots they still exists but they are a small minority and current direction and policies of China certainly don't reflect their idea's.

The CCP doesn't own China. They have to be responsive to the need of the people and they are judged by their performence.

Having said all that i do know and acknowledge their shortcomings past present and most likely future. I guess everyone in the end has to make up their own balance of things and for me at this point in time atleast the balance of the CCP in China still falls in the positive.

One prime example of sacrifice is one child policy... seriously you really dont know how many family "extinct" because their one and only full grown child died in accident. Its one of the main reason why parents nowadays order their child dont go play hero and save a stranger, only to endanger your own life, because that child is the only bearer of the family line.

Most of us chinese sacrificing generation and generation of people are for the betterment of our decendents, but what currently how China turn out did not convince me my children can live a good life I want him to have, nor my grandchildren will be.

Of course I dont deny the policy Deng made works, but what price we need to paid for those series of policy? And dont even try to convince me with "China can only able to progress with policy A, policy B or C or others will definitely fail!"

If you ask me which period of China you worry more about, present or future? I will answer you firmly future.
I do know "communism" end long ago, and those braindead CCP zealots are still minority. But that is true only in current time!
What I saw the trend is these braindead CCP zealots are growing in numbers day by day, preaching "back to mao era, back to maoist rule" or "chinese traditional culture are a hindrance!" day in and day out. And with the current day China education system and culture policy, mix with those hollow communism preaching by CCP day in and day out, will only create the best breeding ground for these braindead CCP zealots.

If CCP do not own China, then why so horrified when we want a future China with a CP, Chinese party, instead of CCP?
I actually dont mind single party rule or even 2 party system, for as long as these parties dont preach western made imported tools as the one and only ultimate truth of universe, to the point of branding heretic chinese or heathen traitors to anyone who doesnt want these western made dog collar to be put on China neck, I will be really happy already.

 

[FlowerSummer]

That is not possible. If anything, given the human nature, what you want for China is impossible.

I said it before and will say it again: We do not live in an intellectual and moral vacuum. Everything we do, even biological actions, are motivated by a need and/or a want. We eat because of hunger, drink because of thirst, and war because of an irreconcilable difference.

It is impossible for a political party to be completely devoid of an ideological (moral) true north, so to speak. Even a monarchy still needs to claim some sort of moral justification for its existence, least of all historical continuance through the country's and the people's institutional memory, generation after generation. Anything can serve as an ideological true north, from religion to money, and today we see those extremes being played out across the world's countries. For religion, we have the Islamism in the ME. For money, we have Russia.

If what you say is intellectually, and equally important emotionally, possible, then China would have done it after Mao's death, or when the Soviet Union collapsed and left China the lone standard bearer of an utterly failed ideology when applied. Yes, I said emotionally because it is always the passion (heart) that motivates people to act to propagate and sustain what they believe (intellect) to be worthwhile and appropriate for their country and fellow countrymen.

Instead, what the world sees in China is a country being led by non-believing believers of an ideology abandoned in practice but retained in justification in order to keep itself in power. The world sees the facade in the CCP and accepts that facade because China needs that facade precisely because of the basic human need for an ideological true north. That need is more subtle and powerful than you think.

I agree with most of what you said, but I disagree to a political party completely devoid of an ideological allignment is lacking moral justification. If the political party really need a true north, it should be "for the betterment of China and Chinese". If you need something more clear and precise, then "to protect chinese traditional arts and culture, to maintain chinese history, identity and integrity, to advancing chinese science and techonology, to develope chinese economy, to ensure chinese welfare and happiness", these are all should be the core of any chinese political party, not some foreign ideologies used by many of us as a dlck to compare with others, so that we can prove which dlck is stronger, longer, thicker, darker or hairier. I dont want China and chinese to fall into either a trap call ideology conflict and struggle, which our sweat and blood will drain for nothing, or another trap named ideology dictatorship and self-imprisonment, which is a monstrosity.

 

[FlowerSummer]

Same here

I don't believe in communism at all.

But I support the CCP, because they are the best practical way to strengthen/develop China, and return China and Chinese civilization to a position of power in the world.

They have lifted more people out of poverty than any other government in the entire history of the world. They are building up China in a way that I could not even believe. For that they have earned my support.

Then why so horrified when we just want to kick out "communism" out from CCP, turning it into CP, chinese party?
I can tell you, once a time china is so weak, that chinese have no choice but to eat $hit made by westerners, just to survive from being "starve to death". But in the future, once china revive its glory, WHY WE STILL NEED TO CONTINUOUSLY EAT $HIT MADE BY WESTERNERS, but instead why dont we STARTED TO EAT FOOD MADE OUT OF CROPS AND LIVESTOCKS, THE HUMAN FOOD OUR ANCEESTORS ONCE EAT, rather than MADE IN WESTERN $HIT?

Is it just because this PIECE OF $HIT once help us to survive through famine, that now we are so "grateful", so "touched" until we have to EAT WESTERN MADE $HIT FOR ETERNITY?