BVR capabilities of PAF

[jawadqamar]

PAF adds new bombs to its arsenal
ISLAMABAD, Dec 17: Pakistan Air Force has integrated the H-4 out-of-sight target bombs in its arsenal of fighter aircraft, official sources said.

The incorporation of H-4 bombs have added to the capability of the PAF to hit out-of-sight targets from a distance of up to 120 kilometres to evade enemy radars during air strikes. A lighter version of the bomb, H-2 model, can hit the out-of-sight targets from a range of up to 60 kilometres.

“It is a step towards adding the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles to our arsenal for defensive purposes and to address the strategic imbalance in the region,” sources said.

The indigenously produced H-4 bombs is an achievement of the National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM), which works in close collaboration with Pakistan Missile Organization and the Air Weapons Complex.

“Three successful tests of H-4, with the latest conducted this year, produced satisfactory results leading to addition of arsenal in the fighter jets,” the sources said.

The H-4 bombs have been made through indigenous efforts by modifying the technological design of South African T-Darter BVR missiles. Till the induction of JF-17 Thunder in 2006, with a provision for BVRs, the H-2 and H-4 bombs could be carried by Mirage fighter jets. The H-4 infrared device is said to be comparable to that of the AA11, AA12 and Python 4 in the Indian arsenal.
Moreover, the sources said, fighter aircraft in PAF’s arsenal have the “provision” to be fitted with precision-guided munitions and BVR missiles.

When asked about advantages of BVR in Indian arsenal, PAF spokesperson Air Commodore Sarfaraz said: “We are aggressively trying to utilize whatever equipment we have to its optimum operational limits through professional training and by pursuing high standards of maintenance.”

Mr Sarfaraz said: “We are aware of our technological needs and are vigorously trying to meet those requirements either through procurements or indigenous developments.”

The European and the US suppliers were currently not willing to share the technology with Pakistan. However, contacts were being established with China, defence sources said, adding that JF-17 Thunder (to be inducted in 2006), F-16s and the Mirage aircraft in Pakistan’s fleet all had the provision to be fitted with BVRs once the technology and the missiles would be acquired. DAWN

Honestly, I'm shocked to discover many senior members are concluding that H-2 and H-4 are not BVRAAMs.

Here's an article published by DAWN on 18th December, 2003 which was also published by Indian Times.



Obviously, PAF has BVR capabilities.

As few of you are still confused about H-2 and H-4 let me try to explaine this issue with help of what i have already posted

In February 1996, soon after the PAF concluded a US$50 million deal with Italy’s Galileo Avionica for the supply of 30 Grifo-M3 airborne multi-mode pulse-Doppler radars for the upgraded Mirage IIIEAs, contractual negotiations began on a $160 million contract with Kentron to cover the licenced-production by AERO of the latter’s U-Darter within-visual-range air-to-air missile (a reverse-engineered R550 Magic-2 missile developed by MBDA). Following this, the PAF by April 1999 had commenced contractual negotiations with Denel Aerospace for co-development of a beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) under a project codenamed H-2, as well as a family of ALCMs under Project H-4. Flight tests of the BVRAAM got underway in 2001 and the resultant missile is now the AERO-produced variant of Kentron’s 60km-range R-Darter missile, which in turn is a derivative of the Derby BVRAAM developed by Israel’s RAFAEL Armament Authority.

1. Missile was fired on its target from a Mirage (ROSE-I with Italy’s Grifo-M3 airborne multi-mode pulse-Doppler radars /some even said these were 2 South African "Cheetah" Fighters which were sold to PAF to ease the testing of BVRAAM) plane over the Arabian Sea. If Mirages pointed towards South Africa than one can only think of BVRAAM test over sea as there will be no point in testing the PGM over sea, so every thing pointed toward South African T-Darter BVR AAM missile.
2. 
   
   [*]H-2 is described to have a range of 60 Km and South African T-Darter BVR AAM missile too had a range of 60 kms and was offered to PAF with some kind TOT in BVR technology
   
   
3. It was said that H-4 missiles which was an infra-red device and H-4 PGM carries that for terminal guidance to achieve 3 meter CEP.
   
4. "It is a step towards adding the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles to our arsenal for defensive purposes and to address the strategic imbalance in the region," Pakistan daily Dawn quoted PAF officials as saying.
   
   
5. Now this statement is extremely important as this is in quoting PAF officials and it doesn’t have a blend of super journalism by these ---- journalists.
   
6. It clearly states Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles not Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Bombs as described by them. It further goes on to say that These are to address the strategic imbalance in the region, now we know that there is no strategic imbalance in PGM in IAF favor category as PAF already have and is continuing to improve its PGM advantage over IAF, so PAF official is referring to words BVRAAM advantage that IAF had at that time over the PAF. So while H-4 long range PGM increased the PAFs attack capabilities it is H-2 that address the strategic imbalance in the region so to me H-2 is a BVRAAM with 60km range is basically a (T-Dater)

As you guys can see that H-2 is a BVRAAM with 60km range is basically a (T-Dater) which is an improved version of R-Dater with data link and some other improvements to meet PAF requirements. On the other hand H-4 is a 120km-range surgical missile armed with high-explosive runway-catering bomblets, as well as a passive radiation seeker for targeting hostile ground-based air defence radars. This is a derivative of the MUPSOW ALCM (Although few people referred H-4 as Raptor-II PGM). PAF has conducted two successful qualification flights of the H-4, these being done on April 22 and December 17, in 2003. The PAF’s present plans call for the procurement of 360 anti-runway variants of the H-4 with high-explosive runway-catering bomblets and 150 anti-radar variants with passive radiation seeker beside general purpose version. For anti-runway variants and general purpose version Long range PGM H-4 carries high-resolution IIR seeker to observe the target area, IIR seeker acquires the target and compare it with files stored in its memory, the aim point will be identified and tracked and be used as the reference for terminal guidance.H-4 is also believed to have an CEP of 3meter only


South African BVRAAM with ramjet engine technology is called the Long Range Air-to-Air Missile (LRAAM) or S-Dater and was offered to PAF as joint development project as a long term solution to PAF requirements on the other hand T-Dater was offered as short to medium term solution. T-Dater was an improved version of R-Dater with data link and some other improvements to meet PAF requirements

 

[z9-ec]

As I previously pointed out, not much is known about H-2 and H-4 such information is kept classified and generally is not available to the public.

Even Jane's in a recent article published in Aug 2008 was not able to confirm what H-2 and H-4 are.

 

[z9-ec]

jawadqamar, very interesting article.

I completely agree as the Mirage ROSE-1 program was initiated for the purpose of equipping the PAF mirage with limited BVRAAM capabilities.

 

[jawadqamar]

As I previously pointed out, not much is known about H-2 and H-4 such information is kept classified and generally is not available to the public.

Even Jane's in a recent article published in Aug 2008 was not able to confirm what H-2 and H-4 are.

Not much is known because of our Poor journalist, but if you take a look at the south African press you will be able to confirm what I am saying

Believe me that Janes is not a source I would rely on when you are looking for data about Pakistan.

jawadqamar, very interesting article.

I completely agree as the Mirage ROSE-1 program was initiated for the purpose of equipping the PAF mirage with BVRAAM capabilities.

Thanks for the appreciation z9-ec

You are absolutely right bro on this. There is no other explanation of purchase Grifo-M3 airborne multi-mode pulse-Doppler radars for the upgraded Mirage IIIEAs on the time when Pakistan had very good defense relations with South Africa. This also explains the fact that PAF tested but did not went on to purchase the Shenyang J-8 II / F-8 Finback which was capable of beyond visual range combat (BVR) with R-27 (AA-10) which could be obtained from Ukraine whose relations with Pakistan were very good at that time and Chinese PL-11 (PiLi-11) semi-active radar-homing medium-range air-to-air missile (MRAAM)and. It looks like that these good days are coming back and this time both PAF and PN are interested in south African stuff

 

[blain2]

In short they seem to be duds ......

That is for the other side to figure out when they get hit with them.

 

[blain2]

The mere fact that there is confusion as to what H-2 and H-4 really are is hilarious, from what I know, they are Pak BVRAAM projects with missiles having an active infra-red seeker. now IR-seeker means that they still may get decked and AC may evade them, as of yet they are still under development and not actively deployed.

There is confusion for the laypersons maybe. Those who have been involved/following this program for the past few years have no such confusion.

The concept of BVR has been misunderstood by the Pakistani press. What the H-2 and H-4 capability pertains to is a standoff strike capability. Standoff alludes to BVR in layman terms because you can use these munitions against targets at extended ranges and as such protect your aircraft from the adversary's air defence assets like the SAMs.

Contrary to your understanding, IR capability here is in reference to lighting up targets for Air to ground munitions. A concept that you hear about and see quite often in the case of Laser guided bombs.

For an inkling on the capability of H2/H4, I would suggest you look up Raptor I/II and you will get a pretty good idea these two Pakistani weapon systems.

These systems are operational.

I think another thing that needs to be mentioned is that an "undisclosed" capability should not be considered as a "lack" of that capability. If there is a categorical denial then its one thing, otherwise it suites a smaller Air Force like the PAF to keep things confidential.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

There is confusion for the laypersons maybe. Those who have been involved/following this program for the past few years have no such confusion.

The concept of BVR has been misunderstood by the Pakistani press. What the H-2 and H-4 capability pertains to is a standoff strike capability. Standoff alludes to BVR in layman terms because you can use these munitions against targets at extended ranges and as such protect your aircraft from the adversary's air defence assets like the SAMs.

Contrary to your understanding, IR capability here is in reference to lighting up targets for Air to ground munitions. A concept that you hear about and see quite often in the case of Laser guided bombs.

For an inkling on the capability of H2/H4, I would suggest you look up Raptor I/II and you will get a pretty good idea these two Pakistani weapon systems.

These systems are operational.

Blain, H-2 is a BVR weapon, and H-4 is a stand-off weapon. H-2 was developed between Pakistan and South Africa. This was confirmed a long time ago. It's just Pakistani journalism that confused everyone, H-2 was mentioned as a bomb that hit "air targets". At first, I thought H-2 was the a glide-bomb as well, however, it is definitely BVR used on our Mirages. South Africa used the R-darter on their Cheetah fighters, their own Mirages. You can see the relationship. besides, T-Darter was offered a long time ago, in 1999 with ToT.

 

[jehangirhaider]

I think here it is need to clear about H2/H4 type because some says both are BVR air to air missile, Others say both are AGM (Raptor I/II)
But as i concluded from different resources

that H2 is air to air missile,where as H4 is air to ground standoff missile.

It is quite logical that why PAF goes for same type as i mention above.
So they made up their arsenal with 2 different types not with 2 same types.

Question regarding BVR capability,I am quite sure that we have it.Even IAF know it,that's why they do not consider PAF as sitting or flying duck.

 

[jawadqamar]

Contrary to your understanding, IR capability here is in reference to lighting up targets for Air to ground munitions. A concept that you hear about and see quite often in the case of Laser guided bombs.

For an inkling on the capability of H2/H4, I would suggest you look up Raptor I/II and you will get a pretty good idea these two Pakistani weapon systems.

1. If you see my previous post you will find that H-4 is a log range PGM with high-resolution IIR seeker to observe the target area, IIR seeker acquires the target for terminal guidance for CEP of 3 meter.
   
   
   
2. Missile was fired on its target from a Mirage (ROSE-I with Italy’s Grifo-M3 airborne multi-mode pulse-Doppler radars /some even said these were 2 South African "Cheetah" Fighters which were sold to PAF to ease the testing of BVRAAM) plane over the Arabian Sea. If Mirages pointed towards South Africa than one can only think of BVRAAM test over sea as there will be no point in testing the PGM over sea, so every thing pointed toward South African T-Darter BVR AAM missile.
   
   
   
   
3. H-2 is described to have a range of 60 Km and South African T-Darter BVR AAM missile too had a range of 60 kms and was offered to PAF with some kind TOT in BVR technology
   
   
   
   
4. It was said that H-4 missiles which was an infra-red device and H-4 PGM carries that for terminal guidance to achieve 3 meter CEP.
   
   
   
   

5. "It is a step towards adding the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles to our arsenal for defensive purposes and to address the strategic imbalance in the region," Pakistan daily Dawn quoted PAF officials as saying.

   
   
   
   
6. Now this statement is extremely important as this is in quoting PAF officials and it doesn’t have a blend of super journalism by these ---- journalists.
   
   
   
   
7. It clearly states Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles not Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Bombs as described by them. It further goes on to say that These are to address the strategic imbalance in the region, now we know that there is no strategic imbalance in PGM in IAF favor category as PAF already have and is continuing to improve its PGM advantage over IAF, so PAF official is referring to words BVRAAM advantage that IAF had at that time over the PAF. So while H-4 long range PGM increased the PAFs attack capabilities it is H-2 that address the strategic imbalance in the region so to me H-2 is a BVRAAM with 60km range is basically a (T-Dater)
   
   
   
   

   Moreover, the sources said, fighter aircraft in PAF’s arsenal have the “provision” to be fitted with precision-guided munitions and BVR missiles.

   
   
   
   
8. This statement in news item again suggest that one of H-2 and H-4 is BVRAAM and other is PGM
   
   
   
   
9. We know that H-4 uses a high-resolution IIR seeker to observe the target area, IIR seeker acquires the target and have a range of 120 km so it cannot be a BVRAAM (as only BVR missile with similar capability is AA-10/R-27 is from Russia) as south Africa have no such BVRAAM, so H-4 is a log range PGM with high-resolution IIR seeker to observe the target area, IIR seeker acquires the target for terminal guidance. This leaves us with H-2 which is said to have a range R-Dater, so H-2 is a BVRAAM with 60km range is basically a (T-Dater) which is an improved version of R-Dater with data link and some other improvements to meet PAF requirements.
   
   
   
   
   
10. This also explains the fact that PAF tested but did not went on to purchase the Shenyang J-8 II / F-8 Finback which was capable of beyond visual range combat (BVR) with R-27 (AA-10) which could be obtained from Ukraine whose relations with Pakistan were very good at that time and Chinese PL-11 (PiLi-11) semi-active radar-homing medium-range air-to-air missile (MRAAM)

This is long list of reasons why I think that H-2 is BVRAAM and H-4 is a long range PGM please come up with counter argument if any one have any

 

[jawadqamar]

I think here it is need to clear about H2/H4 type because some says both are BVR air to air missile, Others say both are AGM (Raptor I/II)
But as i concluded from different resources

that H2 is air to air missile,where as H4 is air to ground standoff missile.

It is quite logical that why PAF goes for same type as i mention above.
So they made up their arsenal with 2 different types not with 2 same types.

Question regarding BVR capability,I am quite sure that we have it.Even IAF know it,that's why they do not consider PAF as sitting or flying duck.

According to SIPRI Arms Transfers Database AIM-120 C-5 AMRAAM delivery dates were 2008-2011 which meas that some of the AIM-120 C-5 AMRAAM were to be deliverd in 2008 And Usman Shabir of PAKDEF has confirmed that 125 AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles have been delivered. 125 will be delivered in 2009, 125 in 2010 and the last 125 in 2011. Many of AIM-9M's have also been delivered.

f16 net
Pakistan Fiza'ya

Modifications
The Pakistan Air Force currently has the Block 15 F-16A/B model in operation, which has an upgraded APG-66 radar that brings it close to the MLU (Mid-life Update) radar technology. The main advantage is the ability to use the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles if they were ever to be released to the PAF. Furthermore, the radar is capable of sorting out tight formations of aircraft and has a 15%-20% range increase over previous models. All the earlier F-16s were brought up to OCU standards and have received the Falcon UP structural modification package

So PAF's 34 F-16 are equiped with Aim-120 C-5 AMRAAM BVRAAM that can out range IAF's R-77 Adder

 

[sky17]

I am new to this forum. I found on net that Pakistan is BVR capable and also producing its own bvr missiles.

 

[ajpirzada]

the only thing i could figure out from this thread is that not much is known about PAFs current BVR capabilities. everyone is reading news articles and then tryin to make some educated guesses. PAF have neither accepted nor denied them havin any such capability.
i was watchin an interview of x-air chief of PAF and he was sayin pak has got BVR with the range of 60+Km. if i remember it rit, he was talkin about mirages.

 

[must7]

We do have BVR missiles and that was very nicely picked up some 3 to 4 years back by a very senior web poster during an international airshow !

Surely many old timers have seen it & discussed it in detail.. but no need to discuss today .. we are in wartime possibility.. let the IAF feel it before to see it !

The above is totaly seperate from the confusion which PAF has kept regarding the darter & SD-10 joint ventures !

 

[eastwatch]

I have found many people are too enthusiastic about the shooting of enemy planes by radar-guided BVR (Beyond Visual Range) missiles from 90 km away. But, can any one check the records and tell others how many missiles have been shot and how many total killings were really made since the beginning of Vietnam war till today? The reality is, the possibility and actual rate of killing are both very low comparing to the expectations of many enthusiasists.

I have reason to believe, many of the airforces are living in dream that BVR can really shoot and kill from as far as 90 kms away. The airforces are paying enormous sums of money to get hold of this BVR technology which has not yet been proved in the battlefields. It is almost impossible to shoot down a plane if the enemy pilot is properly trained on evasive maneuverings.

 

[fatman17]

this is an older post on this topic. PAF now is well equipped with BVR capabilities which are well known.