BVR capabilities of PAF

[Nomi929]

In recent interview,PAF Chief admitted that IAF is having BVR advantage over PAF for last two decades.

Hopefully after the inducion of JF-17 and upgradation of F-16's, things will be much much better.

 

[Firebird_80]

In recent interview,PAF Chief admitted that IAF is having BVR advantage over PAF for last two decades.

Hopefully after the inducion of JF-17 and upgradation of F-16's, things will be much much better.

actually Indian BVR was lagging by itself till 2004. It was only once IAF was beaten thoroughly by French Air Force in their exercises in BVR that IAF started laying emphasis on BVR and with the ability of SU-30 to independently act as an AWAC AC in parts, this capacity is only now being fully utilised to enhance the ability to engage in BVR role. PAF is in its nascent stage in sofar as BVR is considered.A very old post i am putting up.

Printed from








IAF to acquire air-to-air BVR missiles
18 Feb 2007, 1201 hrs IST, PTI



NEW DELHI: To maintain its unchallenged dominance in beyond visual range (BVR) combat in the South Asian region, Indian Air Force has embarked upon a major plan to acquire longer range air-to-air missiles.

India's dominance in offensive air superiority operations is being dented by the supply of similar BVR missiles to Pakistan by the US in government-to-government sales.

This sudden move has spurred IAF officials to make quick efforts to purchase 120-km range air-to-air missiles. The acquisition of such missiles, which sport ramjet propulsion, will make IAF the lone air force in Asia to have such an unparalleled capability, top IAF officials said.

The acquisition of these missiles is being undertaken in tandem with moves to induct combat aircraft with active phased array radars.

The new 40 Sukhoi-30 advanced version MKI, whose purchase in a deal worth 2.6 billion dollars has been cleared by the government, and 126 medium range combat aircraft, tenders for which are expected to be floated by this month-end, will be equipped with the new radars, officials said.

These new radars will give IAF, for the first time, the capability to detect targets as far as 300 km away and the means to fire such longer range air-to-air missiles.

Till now, the IAF had an unchallenged dominance in beyond visual range combat with its array of MiG fighters equipped with R-27 REI and R-27 RETs missiles with a target lock on of 35 km for close combat and the longer range R-77 and French R-550 Magic Mantra missiles capable of shooting down targets 60 km away.

But the recent decision of the US administration to clear the supply of AMRAAM and AIM-9M Sidewinder beyond visual range missiles to Pakistan has eroded the IAF's dominance in air combat, officials admitted.

The US government has cleared the sale of AMRAAM and Sidewinder air-to-air missiles worth 240 million dollars to Islamabad to equip its new batch of 50 F-16 fighters.

"There are moves also to start indigenous development of such long range missiles by DRDO with possible foreign collaboration," DRDO sources said.

With the induction of three Phalcon airborne early warning and control aircraft between November this year and 2009, the IAF would get the capability to conduct and control airborne operations upto 400 km inside hostile airspace.

The new Su-30MKI, which India would be acquiring by 2009, would be equipped with Ibris active phased radars which will transform the fighters into a dedicated information weapons platforms.

Thanks to a large number of fighter exercises carried out with foreign air forces, IAF pilots have mastered beyond visual range combat even in an AWACS environment. "The pilots are all agog to train with longer range BVR missiles," an IAF official said.

 

[Moscow]

IAF is to further improve its BVR capability with the su30-mki carriage trials for its astra air to air bvr missile due in january 2009.this would significantly improve IAF capabilities

 

[jawadqamar]

Question to you is why Pakistan air force went to upgrade its mirages with Grifo-M radar and test were of missiles was made in sea in times when our relations with SA were really good? And why did not PAF bought F-8 BVR capable aircraft from china when offered??

Military industrial cooperation between Pakistan and South Africa dates back to the mid-1990s when the PAF sought Denel Aerospace's expertise for developing a family of precision-guided munitions for ground attack as well as a family of air combat missiles. In February 1996, soon after the PAF concluded a US$50 million deal with Italy's Galileo Avionics for the supply of 32 Grifo-M3 airborne multi-mode pulse-Doppler radars for the upgraded Mirage IIIEAs, contractual negotiations began on a $160 million contract with Kentron to cover the licensed-production by AERO of the latter's U-Darter within-visual-range air-to-air missile (a reverse-engineered R550 Magic-2 missile developed by MBDA). Following this, the PAF by April 1999 had commenced contractual negotiations with Denel Aerospace for co-development of a beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) under a project codenamed H-2. Flight tests of the BVRAAM got underway in 2001 and the resultant missile is now the AERO-produced variant of Kentron's BVRAAM T-Darter missile (data linked and improved R-Darter ), which in turn is a derivative of the Derby BVRAAM developed by Israel's RAFAEL Armament Authority. Denel radar-guided R-Darter, which is virtually the same missile as the Israeli Aircraft Industries Derby. The product of Israeli and South African cooperation during the 1980s and 1990s, the R-Darter has a weight of 120kg and reported range of 63km.


The first 40 F-16A/Bs of Block 15 configuration came along with 500 AIM-7F Sparrows and equal number of AIM-9L Sidewinders. Also included in this package were 20 ALQ-131 jamming pods and an equal no of ATLIS-2 laser designator pods for the Mk82 laser-guided bombs and AS-30L laser-guided air-to-ground PGMs. US Defence Security Cooperation Agency's notification of June 1986 to the US Congress contains additional details.

125 AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles have been delivered. 125 will be delivered in 2009, 125 in 2010 and the last 125 in 2011. Many of AIM-9M's have also been delivered.

Combine the news of delivery of 125 AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles with following and it will make some sense
Pakistan Fiza'ya

Modifications
The Pakistan Air Force currently has the Block 15 F-16A/B model in operation, which has an upgraded APG-66 radar that brings it close to the MLU (Mid-life Update) radar technology. The main advantage is the ability to use the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles if they were ever to be released to the PAF. Furthermore, the radar is capable of sorting out tight formations of aircraft and has a 15%-20% range increase over previous models. All the earlier F-16s were brought up to OCU standards and have received the Falcon UP structural modification package


So now 34 PAF F-16A/B Block 15 OCU are armed with 125 AIM-120 AMRAAM C-5 (Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile) fire-and-forget air-to-air Missile missiles which have range of 105 km (65 miles) and 500 AIM-7F Sparrow III with range of 70 km (38 nm).46 F-16A/B that are now undergoing MLU upgrades and the new-build ones will be able to fire the AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM. About 100 F-7Ps Grifo-7 radar will be able to fire the and 60 F-7PGs Grifo-7PG radar will be able to fire H-2 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM).30+Mirage-III Rose-I with Grifo-M3 will be able to fire H-2 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM).



SO far only ground testing of the Astra missile motor was done and it still need lots and lots of testing before it will be capable to deployment. Astra has yet to be ready for air testing of missile motor before actually can be tested for real interception tests. It is yet to receive its guidance package from MBDA and now news are appearing that Astra AAM will be using the Russian AGAT JSC-built active seeker, instead of the one developed by MBDA for the Mica-EM so you can expect more and more delays in yeas and decades to come Astra BVRAAM is no more then a Akash Medium range surface-to-air missile or Trishul short range surface-to-air missile ( both of which are rejected by indian airforce And indian navy due to lack of performance), Nag "Fire-and-forget" anti-tank missile ( Only NAG ATGM was able to achieve few of its designed objectives indian army have forget nag and its designed team will soon be fired )or BrahMos is a supersonic cruise missile that is nothing more than indian painted version of russian P-800 Oniks / Yakhont that will now not be tested upon the SU-30MKI as it is too heavy and lacks the capabilities of modern ALCM like RAAD and other Indian projects that were super duper capable but their own armed forcees are not happy to get that super heavy junk which is world only cruise missile that need to fly @ 14000m+ hight to have a range of 280km at low flight its range is only 120km @1.4 mach


India have yet to start the up gradation of Mirage-2000H which are currently india's most capable PGM (Laser-guided bomb) strike carrier with the help of Israel.So far it is equipped with ancient Matra Super 530 medium-range semi-active radar-guided air-to-air missile with very limited performance. Even after such upgrades its air to air weaponry will be limited to derby BVRAAM from Israel similar to south African R-Darter and less capable the T-Darter which was offered to Pakistan air force for its upgraded Mirage-III ROSE-I , F-7MP/P/PGs and JF-17 in late nineties.

Indian MiG-29 are the oldest version of MIG-29 series and under current plans IAF will perform limited upgrade to make them capable of carrying R-77 in future and after watching the pace of Indian upgrade program it looks that it will take at least an other decade to do so. In its current form it can only carry Vympel R-27 Semi-active radar guided AAM whose super performance in Africa wars is known to the whole world

Out of 120 odd MIG-27s only 40 odd will go through limited up gradation in future to provide them some of the modern ground strike capabilities until then they have very basic PGM capability.

Majority of Mig-23 are about to be retired next year or so and will see not up gradation program.

Out of 300 odd mig-21s only 125 got up gradation and are called bison. These were equipped with the R-77 which was only tested by bison @18-20km at most and never was tested at BVR ranges. Out of which 4-5 bison already got tired and took early retirement with their pilots. Even these upgraded Bison are less capable in air to air fight when compared to our F-7PG

Yes PAF is currently lacking behind from IAF in some aspects of warfare but it is not a one sided game yet as PAFs strike weapons are much more advance then that of IAF and BVR advantage of IAF if therre is any will end in next two to four years as PAF will field 46-60 F-16s AM/BM MLU(as capable as Block 52 in term of avionics capability) and18 F-16s C/D Block 52+ with AIM-120 C-5 BVRAAM , 36-40 Fc-20 with SD-10A BVRAAM and 100 odd JF-17 with SD-10A/Mica BVRAAM and 100 F-7Ps Grifo-7 radar will be able to fire the and 60 F-7PGs Grifo-7PG radar will be able to fire H-2 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM)



Pakistani modern ALCM with range of 350 km+ and GLCM Babur with range of 700 km+ both of which have a CEP of less then 3 meters H-4 with 120 km PGMs which carry terminal guided targeting system to get CEP of 3 meter (some times called Pakistani version of SA Rapter-I/II or MUPSOW).Long range PGM to be developed under Project H-4 was a 120km-range surgical missile armed with high-explosive runway-cratering bomblets, as well as a passive radiation seeker for targeting hostile ground-based air defence radars. This is according to some news is a derivative of the Rapter-I/II MUPSOW PGM that has been under development by Kentron since the early 1990s and incorporates twin side-mounted air intakes and fixed horizontal and vertical tailfins. PAF has conducted two Successful qualification flights of the H-4 PGM , these being done on April 22 and December 17, in 2003.

All these highly capable PGMs are enough to make sure that IAF planes will have no bases left with runways to land if they start a war

 

[zavis2003]

Surely BVR tech demands some practise from PAF Shaheens but it is little marginal since a BVR missil has to move through a long distance to capture sand target has enogh time for maneorvabilty , it means missil technology matters lot then pilot skill

 

[Indicom]

Surely BVR tech demands some practise from PAF Shaheens but it is little marginal since a BVR missil has to move through a long distance to capture sand target has enogh time for maneorvabilty , it means missil technology matters lot then pilot skill

The wisest comment so far.

 

[Goodperson]

You must be talking about arrows shot from a bow, not a missile, right????

Jokes aside.

Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile usually refers to an air-to-air missile that is capable of engaging at ranges beyond 20 nautical miles, Missile tracks its target target in flight. Mid- course correction is transmitted to the missile. With Semi active radar homing (SARH) the aircraft radar is locked on to the target, The radar antenna illuminates the target until impact.

 

[Moscow]

The mathematics of multiple round missile engagements are unambiguous - the size of a missile salvo launched is a stronger driver of success than the actual kill probability of the individual missiles. If the missiles are wholly identical by type,factor degrading the kill probability of one missile is apt to have a similar effect on its siblings in a salvo. However, where the missiles differ by seeker type and guidance control laws, then the assumption of statistically independent missile shots is very much stronger.
BVR missile launch was to salvo two rounds, a semi-active radar homing weapon and a heatseeking weapon.Even if we assume a mediocre per round kill probability of 30 percent, a four round salvo still exceeds a total kill probability of 75 percent.this technology is applicable to russian BVR missiles
the western made is AIM-120 AMRAAMThe AIM-120C-4 has better kinematic performance introducing a larger rocket motor and shorter control section, and a better warhead, while the AIM-120C-6 introduced a better fuse. The latest AIM-120D introduces a redesigned seeker built for better durability in high vibration carriage environments, a two way datalink, GPS to supplement inertial guidance, incrementally improved kinematics, and better seeker performance against high off-boresight targets.Since all of the AIM-120s fired are identical in kinematic performance and seeker jam resistance, any measure applied by the enemy d which is effective against one AIM-120 round in the salvo is apt to produce the same effect against all AIM-120 rounds - a problem the russian BVR does not have due to diversity in seeker types and missile kinematics.



classified capabilities such as the use of the APG-79 or APG-81 AESA radar as an X-band high power jammer against the Russian BARS or Irbis E radar are not a panacea, and may actually hasten the downfall.This is for the simple reason that to jam the Russian radar, the APG-79 or APG-81 AESA radar must jam the frequencies being used by the Russian radar, and this then turns the APG-79 or APG-81 AESA radar into a wholly electronically predictable X-band high power beacon for an anti-radiation seeker equipped Russian BVR missile such as the R-27EP or R-77P. The act of jamming the Russian radar effectively surrenders the frequency hopping agility in the emissions of the APG-79 or APG-81 AESA radar, denying it the only defence it has against the anti-radiation missile



that is why i am of the opinion that IAF sukhoi 30 flankers< regardless of what the red flag exercises had to say> equipped with russian BVR missiles is a very potent arsenal in a BVR combat

 

[Jihad]

I have seriously learned so much from this thread and all these posts.
Thanks alot guys.

 

[z9-ec]

Honestly, I'm shocked to discover many senior members are concluding that H-2 and H-4 are not BVRAAMs.

Here's an article published by DAWN on 18th December, 2003 which was also published by Indian Times.

PAF adds new bombs to its arsenal
ISLAMABAD, Dec 17: Pakistan Air Force has integrated the H-4 out-of-sight target bombs in its arsenal of fighter aircraft, official sources said.

The incorporation of H-4 bombs have added to the capability of the PAF to hit out-of-sight targets from a distance of up to 120 kilometres to evade enemy radars during air strikes. A lighter version of the bomb, H-2 model, can hit the out-of-sight targets from a range of up to 60 kilometres.

&#8220;It is a step towards adding the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles to our arsenal for defensive purposes and to address the strategic imbalance in the region,&#8221; sources said.
The indigenously produced H-4 bombs is an achievement of the National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM), which works in close collaboration with Pakistan Missile Organization and the Air Weapons Complex.

&#8220;Three successful tests of H-4, with the latest conducted this year, produced satisfactory results leading to addition of arsenal in the fighter jets,&#8221; the sources said.

The H-4 bombs have been made through indigenous efforts by modifying the technological design of South African T-Darter BVR missiles. Till the induction of JF-17 Thunder in 2006, with a provision for BVRs, the H-2 and H-4 bombs could be carried by Mirage fighter jets. The H-4 infrared device is said to be comparable to that of the AA11, AA12 and Python 4 in the Indian arsenal.
Moreover, the sources said, fighter aircraft in PAF&#8217;s arsenal have the &#8220;provision&#8221; to be fitted with precision-guided munitions and BVR missiles.

When asked about advantages of BVR in Indian arsenal, PAF spokesperson Air Commodore Sarfaraz said: &#8220;We are aggressively trying to utilize whatever equipment we have to its optimum operational limits through professional training and by pursuing high standards of maintenance.&#8221;

Mr Sarfaraz said: &#8220;We are aware of our technological needs and are vigorously trying to meet those requirements either through procurements or indigenous developments.&#8221;

The European and the US suppliers were currently not willing to share the technology with Pakistan. However, contacts were being established with China, defence sources said, adding that JF-17 Thunder (to be inducted in 2006), F-16s and the Mirage aircraft in Pakistan&#8217;s fleet all had the provision to be fitted with BVRs once the technology and the missiles would be acquired. DAWN

Obviously, PAF has BVR capabilities.

 

[SSGPA1]

Honestly, I'm shocked to discover many senior members are concluding that H-2 and H-4 are not BVRAAMs.

Here's an article published by DAWN in 18th December, 2003 which was also published by Indian Times.



Obviously, PAF has BVR capabilities.

These are bombs and not missiles. Bombs to hit installations at a distance of 120 km. Initial reports were wrong, the H-4 is an air-to-surface weapon and refer to two variants, H-4 and H-2, with a stand-off range of 120km and 60km respectively.

 

[Firebird_80]

Honestly, I'm shocked to discover many senior members are concluding that H-2 and H-4 are not BVRAAMs.

Here's an article published by DAWN on 18th December, 2003 which was also published by Indian Times.


You are right H-2 is a BVRAAM being developed by Pakistan

 

[Firebird_80]

These are bombs and not missiles. Bombs to hit installations at a distance of 120 km. Initial reports were wrong, the H-4 is an air-to-surface weapon and refer to two variants, H-4 and H-2, with a stand-off range of 120km and 60km respectively.

In short they seem to be duds ......

 

[Firebird_80]

The mere fact that there is confusion as to what H-2 and H-4 really are is hilarious, from what I know, they are Pak BVRAAM projects with missiles having an active infra-red seeker. now IR-seeker means that they still may get decked and AC may evade them, as of yet they are still under development and not actively deployed.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

The mere fact that there is confusion as to what H-2 and H-4 really are is hilarious, from what I know, they are Pak BVRAAM projects with missiles having an active infra-red seeker. now IR-seeker means that they still may get decked and AC may evade them, as of yet they are still under development and not actively deployed.

The air force call it "BVR" missile and its our assumption to call it BVRAAM or BVRAGM. very little is known about this project but i think it is a AGM with 60-120 km range like AGM-154 and all i can say is that its a improved version of South african raptor 1 and 2 AGMs.