Brahmins the new untouchables of India

[Manvantaratruti]

Not sure you had been to other parts of Tamilnadu - forget about rest of the India. SC/STs are stopped from entering many temples and sometimes courts had to intervene to allow these people inside the temple.

How many want to look at the whole situation rationally ?

Agma shastra clearly states people coming into temples need to take a bath, not eat non veg, drink alcohol etc. The reason SC/ST were stopped from entering the temples were because they did not follow the code prescribed for temple worship.

The temples were built and maintained by the Brahmins. If the SC/ST wanted they could have built their own temple and asked the brahmins not to enter them .

How can they insist on entering someone else's property without their permission ? That just does not make any sense. How can you play the victim ?

I am not for or against the code, just making a rational observation. 
In Shabarimala temple most women cannot enter it. How can they claim they want to enter the temple and force the poojari to bow to their wish ?

In fact, in all temples, women cannot enter when they are menstruating either.

 

[bronxbull]

If 80% of the population keep you aside,then there is some problem with you,not them.

Thats common sense.

 

[Sashan]

There is never an argument about SC/ST reservation whether about temples or otherwise.

I am not saying SC/STs were not stopped,i am merely talking about many non brahmin upper castes like sriram here claiming we did all this because the brahmins asked us to do so,wow.

Even i myself have done nothing strongly discriminatory but so what?

I see some castes like kings/soldiers/big landowners getting reservation claiming backwardness.

it is like i was supposed to become a rocket scientist and the evil brahmins found a switch to control my brain.

I have not closely followed what others said here and so it does not reflect my opinion. Just that this particular line caught my attention.

Apart from that, if you want my opinion, there is no payback and there should not be reverse discrimination. I have seen the ill-effects of reservation personally and I am for reforms especially economy of a person should be considered along with the caste. Also the previous generation in the family had used reservation the subsequent generations in the family should be denied reservation. 

How many want to look at the whole situation rationally ?

Agma shastra clearly states people coming into temples need to take a bath, not eat non veg, drink alcohol etc. The reason SC/ST were stopped from entering the temples were because they did not follow the code prescribed for temple worship.

The temples were built and maintained by the Brahmins. If the SC/ST wanted they could have built their own temple and asked the brahmins not to enter them .

How can they insist on entering someone else's property without their permission ? That just does not make any sense. How can you play the victim ?

I am not for or against the code, just making a rational observation. 
In Shabarimala temple most women cannot enter it. How can they claim they want to enter the temple and force the poojari to bow to their wish ?

In fact, in all temples, women cannot enter when they are menstruating either.

Even non-SC/ST eat meat and even the Kings ate meat but would come to temple for praying everyday. Why not try preventing them and just the SC/STs? Also what you stated is preposterous - temples were built by Brahmins. Either the kings in the past built them or nowadays trust funds collected from various people are used to build temple.

But I am not just talking about the mainstream Hindu temples or Brahmins - how about the villageside temples dedicated to the local deities where people pray with alcohol and meat. Even there SC/STs are not allowed. So SC/STs are discriminated.

I do hate Shabarimala for the same reason you quoted above. Another reason is all rogues make it a fashion to visit Shabarimala.

 

[livingdead]

This whole,you stopped me from temple is a big bogus nonsense.

Most SC/STs were people who didn't believe in the temple system,they had their own animic beliefs.

And even my grandparents didn't exploit or hurt anyone and all the leasees of our agricultural land were SCs and they prefer to lease our land than that of non brahmin caste hindus as they dont get an equitable agreement there.

so,please stop all this exploitation story.

Under muslim invasions,brahmins were the ones who got slaughtered and they were the ones who faced certain death and died also and it is because of them,that today we are still sovereign and not an arab protectorate like pakistan.

Nobody is knowingly trying to victimize brahmins, even today lot of hindus give respect to brahmins just because of their caste.
The fact is brahmins still overrepressent any field that requires using brain, may be because hundreds of years of doing task that need more brain than muscle (or may be access to more and better food/nutrients ) makes them better at it.
India and even the world is becoming a knowledge based society and brahmins will never be out of jobs.
A few will be poor I agree but why is that such a shocking thing compared to a huge percent dalits in poverty?

Regarding reservation based on income, that is difficult to work in India.

 

[Bang Galore]

How many want to look at the whole situation rationally ?

Agma shastra clearly states people coming into temples need to take a bath, not eat non veg, drink alcohol etc. The reason SC/ST were stopped from entering the temples were because they did not follow the code prescribed for temple worship.

The temples were built and maintained by the Brahmins. If the SC/ST wanted they could have built their own temple and asked the brahmins not to enter them .

How can they insist on entering someone else's property without their permission ? That just does not make any sense. How can you play the victim ?

I am not for or against the code, just making a rational observation. 
In Shabarimala temple most women cannot enter it. How can they claim they want to enter the temple and force the poojari to bow to their wish ?

In fact, in all temples, women cannot enter when they are menstruating either.

Proof that such a mentality exists even today. Who wrote all the rules? If the SC/St wanted? Like they had a choice? Pathetic that people still try to justify & still wonder why those at the bottom of the chain didn't consider some period as the "golden" age. Funny how people who make all this arguments get clay feet if a bunch of non-privileged castes decide to embrace another faith. It then doesn't seem to be enough to argue that they can build their own temples.....not if it becomes something other than a temple. What point to be privileged if there is no one to lord over, no?

 

[Dillinger]

Proof that such a mentality exists even today. Who wrote all the rules? If the SC/St wanted? Like they had a choice? Pathetic that people still try to justify & still wonder why those at the bottom of the chain didn't consider some period as the "golden" age. Funny how people who make all this arguments get clay feet if a bunch of non-privileged castes decide to embrace another faith. It then doesn't seem to be enough to argue that they can build their own temples.....not if it becomes something other than a temple. What point to be privileged if there is no one to lord over, no?

Nope at that point the oppressed become "traitors", I say good going. If you cannot enter a temple then spit on that religion and find a faith of your own liking, one which will not discriminate. The Brahmins and the RSS gooks can stick to the "have three children" policy to propagate their religion while the "others" should just build their own "temples"..I mean Churches and Mosques.

 

[Mritunjaya]

Even non-SC/ST eat meat and even the Kings ate meat but would come to temple for praying everyday. Why not try preventing them and just the SC/STs? Also what you stated is preposterous - temples were built by Brahmins. Either the kings in the past built them or nowadays trust funds collected from various people are used to build temple.

But I am not just talking about the mainstream Hindu temples or Brahmins - how about the villageside temples dedicated to the local deities where people pray with alcohol and meat. Even there SC/STs are not allowed. So SC/STs are discriminated.

I do hate Shabarimala for the same reason you quoted above. Another reason is all rogues make it a fashion to visit Shabarimala.

No. Even kings would not eat meat before coming to a Hindu temple. Kindly do not cook up facts. So your whole argument is built on lies and fiction.

Temples were built by brahmins, by kings against expressed desires of the brahmins to build them. The temples themselves were built as per architecture dictated by the brahmins and as per rituals of the brahmins. There are no exceptions.

Again I cannot make a rational argument against a fictional account of 'village temple where people ate meat and drank alcohol'. What next ? a village temple where cannibalism was practiced and where SC/ST were not allowed insider ?

Your personal liking or disliking of any temple has no relevance here except to win some brownie points. Is this how you debate ?

 

[Mritunjaya]

Proof that such a mentality exists even today. Who wrote all the rules? If the SC/St wanted? Like they had a choice? Pathetic that people still try to justify & still wonder why those at the bottom of the chain didn't consider some period as the "golden" age. Funny how people who make all this arguments get clay feet if a bunch of non-privileged castes decide to embrace another faith. It then doesn't seem to be enough to argue that they can build their own temples.....not if it becomes something other than a temple. What point to be privileged if there is no one to lord over, no?

Those Rules are written in the scriptures that also wrote on how to build a temple.

Ancient Rishis who were the founders of Hinduism wrote the Agama shastra which is a compilation of various treatises called Prakarana Catustaya but only know reference is to Rishi Adi Samkara.

What really is pathetic is people attempting to pass of ignorance as knowledge. I would rather they just shut up rather than pretend to know something.

Everybody has a choice in life including the SC/ST. The choice is to follow the rules for temple worship and then enter the temple or not to follow the rules for temple worship and not enter the temple. Clearly such simple logic is too much for the ignorant.

SC/ST did convert to buddhism so why the reservation then ? no need to enter the temple right ? Your fantasies of wanting to lord over otherss is just an extension of your hate fueled by ignorance and half knowledge. 

Nope at that point the oppressed become "traitors", I say good going. If you cannot enter a temple then spit on that religion and find a faith of your own liking, one which will not discriminate. The Brahmins and the RSS gooks can stick to the "have three children" policy to propagate their religion while the "others" should just build their own "temples"..I mean Churches and Mosques.

Must feel good to mouth your fantasies and play the victim, right ? carry on with the rhetorics. As usual nothing of any substance.

 

[Sashan]

No. Even kings would not eat meat before coming to a Hindu temple. Kindly do not cook up facts. So your whole argument is built on lies and fiction.

Temples were built by brahmins, by kings against expressed desires of the brahmins to build them. The temples themselves were built as per architecture dictated by the brahmins and as per rituals of the brahmins. There are no exceptions.

Again I cannot make a rational argument against a fictional account of 'village temple where people ate meat and drank alcohol'. What next ? a village temple where cannibalism was practiced and where SC/ST were not allowed insider ?

Your personal liking or disliking of any temple has no relevance here except to win some brownie points. Is this how you debate ?

I am not talking about whether they ate meat or not before coming to a temple. I am pointing out to the food habit of the kings and non-SC/STs. Having stated that it was not for the Brahmins to decide that the SC/STs did not follow the code vs others. It is a simple case of discrimination and you guys are spinning your excuses to try to mask the discrimination these people faced.

What fictional account of village temples where alcohol and meat were not served? See the start my participation in the discussion - I had clearly mentioned the discrimination happening in Tamilnadu. What do you know of the village temples in TN? It is part of the culture of most TN people. For that sake, Jayalalitha tried to ban the animal sacrifice in these village temples as per the advice of the Kanchi mutt and was one of the reasons she lost the elections earlier. So if you do not know about these temples, I suggest do some digging in google. Try googling Muneeswaran temple and Annanmar(Ponnan Sankar temple) as examples.

 

[Mritunjaya]

I am not talking about whether they ate meat or not before coming to a temple. I am pointing out to the food habit of the kings and non-SC/STs. Having stated that it was not for the Brahmins to decide that the SC/STs did not follow the code vs others. It is a simple case of discrimination and you guys are spinning your excuses to try to mask the discrimination these people faced.

What fictional account of village temples where alcohol and meat were not served? See the start my participation in the discussion - I had clearly mentioned the discrimination happening in Tamilnadu. What do you know of the village temples in TN? It is part of the cultural of most TN people. For that sake, Jayalalitha tried to ban the animal sacrifice in these village temples as per the advice of the Kanchi mutt and was one of the reasons she lost the elections earlier. So if you do not know about these temples, I suggest do some digging in google. Try googling Muneeswaran temple and Annanmar(Ponnan Sankar temple) as examples.

India for the longest time is and was a vegetarian country. Meat eating was an exception rather than the rule. So again all that you said is fiction and not fact.

In fact most Hindu kings were vegetarian too. There would have been exceptions, but the rule was vegetarianism. Meat eating in India became popular after Islamic and Christian invasion. No amount of twisting history to suite an agenda will change hard realities.

Of course when Hindu knowledge disappears it is replaced by foolish customs which blindly follow the actions and traditions without knowing the true reasons for it. Tamil Naudu is no exception to this.

Most of what passes for 'temple' in tamil nadu villages is just a building with a statute of 'god or godess' which is established without any agama rituals or shilpa shastra principles. They are the equivalent of the dargas which the muslims build.

 

[Sashan]

India for the longest time is and was a vegetarian country. Meat eating was an exception rather than the rule. So again all that you said is fiction and not fact.

In fact most Hindu kings were vegetarian too. There would have been exceptions, but the rule was vegetarianism. Meat eating in India became popular after Islamic and Christian invasion. No amount of twisting history to suite an agenda will change hard realities.

Of course when Hindu knowledge disappears it is replaced by foolish customs which blindly follow the actions and traditions without knowing the true reasons for it. Tamil Naudu is no exception to this.

Most of what passes for 'temple' in tamil nadu villages is just a building with a statute of 'god or godess' which is established without any agama rituals or shilpa shastra principles. They are the equivalent of the dargas which the muslims build.

The generalization that India was a vegetarian country is preposterous. Many Shaivite sects ate meat while many Vaishavites did not. And your claim that most Hindu kings were vegetarian is again flawed.

And whether the temples in TN villages are temples or not is not for you to decide (same like the Kanchi Mutt tried to decide and had to backout against the backlash) . It is for the people in TN to decide.

 

[Mritunjaya]

The generalization that India was a vegetarian country is preposterous. Many Shaivite sects ate meat while many Vaishavites did not. And your claim that most Hindu kings were vegetarian is again flawed.

And whether the temples in TN villages are temples or not is not for you to decide (same like the Kanchi Mutt tried to decide and had to backout against the backlash) . It is for the people in TN to decide.

India never had an industry of breeding livestock for meat consumption. You can look as far back as you want. The entire Indian culture and way of life was to breed cows and goats for their milk and never for their meat. In fact eating their meat was abhorant to any practicing hindu, jain or Buddhist. That was till the christian and muslim invaders came and converted the dharmic followers into meat eaters.

No amount of wishful thinking is going to change this reality.

As to the logic that the people of TN will decide and act, then the brahmins too has the right to decide and prevent entry into their temple. Clearly the logical fallacy should be apparent by now.

 

[Sashan]

India never had an industry of breeding livestock for meat consumption. You can look as far back as you want. The entire Indian culture and way of life was to breed cows and goats for their milk and never for their meat. In fact eating their meat was abhorant to any practicing hindu, jain or Buddhist. That was till the christian and muslim invaders came and converted the dharmic followers into meat eaters.

No amount of wishful thinking is going to change this reality.

As to the logic that the people of TN will decide and act, then the brahmins too has the right to decide and prevent entry into their temple. Clearly the logical fallacy should be apparent by now.

So you meant to say majority Hindus today(as these are the meat eaters) wereconverted by christian and muslim invaders into meat eaters but could not do that with their religion. Do you realize how illogical your reasoning is?

As for some trying to prevent entry SC/STs into the temples and claiming it as their right - dude that some will be dealt with under various acts including temple-entry and untouchability act. So let someone try going forward and these people have legal avenues.

 

[Dillinger]

Those Rules are written in the scriptures that also wrote on how to build a temple.

Ancient Rishis who were the founders of Hinduism wrote the Agama shastra which is a compilation of various treatises called Prakarana Catustaya but only know reference is to Rishi Adi Samkara.

What really is pathetic is people attempting to pass of ignorance as knowledge. I would rather they just shut up rather than pretend to know something.

Everybody has a choice in life including the SC/ST. The choice is to follow the rules for temple worship and then enter the temple or not to follow the rules for temple worship and not enter the temple. Clearly such simple logic is too much for the ignorant.

SC/ST did convert to buddhism so why the reservation then ? no need to enter the temple right ? Your fantasies of wanting to lord over otherss is just an extension of your hate fueled by ignorance and half knowledge. 


Must feel good to mouth your fantasies and play the victim, right ? carry on with the rhetorics. As usual nothing of any substance.

What fantasy? For people in my position neither religion nor caste matters. I could care less whether we were over-run by Brahmins or Shudras, whether this is a Hindu majority nation or Muslim majority nation or populated by Scientologist..I still get to enjoy my privileges.

This is a simple matter of detached amusement..observing people who throw fits when those who have been discriminated choose to convert and then reasserting that very discriminatory framework then next moment..

 

[t_for_talli]

bullsh*t... bramhins are still overrepresented in bureaucracy, intelligentsia, academia and leadership position (mgmt) in business.

Its only in politics that they seem to have lost power because democracy is a game of numbers.

Yes, Brahmins only constitute 5-10% of total population of India, hence lagging in politics
Their representation in bureaucracy, intelligentsia, academia and leadership position is not because of their caste but their hard work and sincerity.
I see no point in caste based reservations as in current scenario any one(irrespective of caste) can achieve these things if he/she in dedicated enough.