Brahmins the new untouchables of India

[Mritunjaya]

Now, that would be some spinning fantasy.......Manusmriti eh? Written by & for the common people, was it? You still don't get it, why are there so many pleas to not eat meat if the people were all a bunch of peaceful vegetarians? Brain freeze, eh?

There are pleas to stop Rape too ....... ...... so what does your same logic dictate ? All Indians are rapist ? brain freeze indeed.

 

[Bang Galore]

Who said meat eating did not occur ? there were still asuras and untouchables in the kingdom practicing ashuda practices. Hence the need for the dictact. But it shows that meat eating was the exception practiced by the social outcasts, which is the case all along.

Err... Asuras in the royal Kitchen......?

LOL. You wish. I have never said meat eating never occurred, only that majority of Indians were vegetarians, and that majority of kings were vegetarians. That still stands. In fact Manu Smriti states that 'The consumption of meat (is befitting) for sacrifices,' that is declared to be a rule made by the gods ; but to persist (in using it) on other (occasions) is said to be a proceeding worthy of Rakshasas.

So even you start to water down some & continue elsewhere with nonsense history peddling and hope it passes muster. No cigar!

LOL. It is you who are making the logical fallacy. I repeat what you have written above, MOST people were vegetarian. Hence why the surprise when some ate meat and give buddha leftover meat as biksha ?

They obviously thought it was okay to give monks meat....doesn't that strike you as odd if the general rule was different. People don't offer Brahmin guests(unless they know they partake in) meat, do they? Buddha enjoyed pork, was hardly something he ate because of compulsion.

This has already been mentioned earlier. When hinduism declines people continue to practice traditions without knowing the reason for it. In a closed community everybody knew who the meat eaters and alcohol drinkers were. Without regular bath, it does not take a genius to figure out who to keep out of any place, including a temple.

Still sticking with that line, eh? 

There are pleas to stop Rape too ....... ...... so what does your same logic dictate ? All Indians are rapist ? brain freeze indeed.

Except that the same scripture you quoted makes excuses for partial meat consumption. All evidence points to meat eating being practiced, regular or otherwise. Even your excuses suggest partial meat eating. Logic then holds.

 

[Mritunjaya]

Err... Asuras in the royal Kitchen......?

When the king is a asura why would the cook or the general populace by any less ? Important thing to note is that he realized the error of his ways and made meat eating wrong.

So even you start to water down some & continue elsewhere with nonsense history peddling and hope it passes muster. No cigar!

LOL. Nothing to water down. Just stating facts. You are yet to prove me wrong.

They obviously thought it was okay to give monks meat....doesn't that strike you as odd if the general rule was different. People don't offer Brahmin guests(unless they know they partake in) meat, do they? Buddha enjoyed pork, was hardly something he ate because of compulsion.

Aghori monks are not a recent phenomena, so it would not be odd to give left over meals to bikshuks. Bikshuk is not a brahmin, he is someone who has taken sanyasa i.e. renounced the world.

I have no idea about the personal tastes and choice of buddha. Maybe you are privy to that information, I am not. In any case it is irrelevant to the debate. One of the principles of Buddhism is Ahimsa (Non-violence). It prohibits killing of animals for any reason (blood-sport, or sacrifice). Buddhist are allowed to accept all foods, as long as the animals was not killed specifically to feed the monks and nuns.

Still sticking with that line, eh?

I always stick to facts. Much to your discomfort.

 

[Bang Galore]

When the king is a asura why would the cook or the general populace by any less ? Important thing to note is that he realized the error of his ways and made meat eating wrong.

Error of his ways? Was that when he became a Buddhist?

LOL. Nothing to water down. Just stating facts. You are yet to prove me wrong.

What facts? Only those who have imagined.

Aghori monks are not a recent phenomena, so it would not be odd to give left over meals to bikshuks. Bikshuk is not a brahmin, he is someone who has taken sanyasa i.e. renounced the world.

Did I say he was Brahmin, were talking about Buddhists, were we not? Anology......

I always stick to facts. Much to your discomfort. [

Discomfort? More like mirth. The last time I had so much fun was when we discused Vishwamitra's grand nephew....someone you wondered was whether was the same as your nephew in U.S............

 

[bronxbull]

I have not closely followed what others said here and so it does not reflect my opinion. Just that this particular line caught my attention.

Apart from that, if you want my opinion, there is no payback and there should not be reverse discrimination. I have seen the ill-effects of reservation personally and I am for reforms especially economy of a person should be considered along with the caste. Also the previous generation in the family had used reservation the subsequent generations in the family should be denied reservation. 


Even non-SC/ST eat meat and even the Kings ate meat but would come to temple for praying everyday. Why not try preventing them and just the SC/STs? Also what you stated is preposterous - temples were built by Brahmins. Either the kings in the past built them or nowadays trust funds collected from various people are used to build temple.

But I am not just talking about the mainstream Hindu temples or Brahmins - how about the villageside temples dedicated to the local deities where people pray with alcohol and meat. Even there SC/STs are not allowed. So SC/STs are discriminated.

I do hate Shabarimala for the same reason you quoted above. Another reason is all rogues make it a fashion to visit Shabarimala.

I dont know why they are denied entry to a sudalai madan temple and such local deities but they need some economic power to build temples for their own gods which they have now.

and nobody eats meat and comes to the temple,thats why many people dont eat meat on 2 days a week and such things.

I dont know why those people became sc/st,it is obvious that one set of people had more shraddha and calm than the other. 

India for the longest time is and was a vegetarian country. Meat eating was an exception rather than the rule. So again all that you said is fiction and not fact.

In fact most Hindu kings were vegetarian too. There would have been exceptions, but the rule was vegetarianism. Meat eating in India became popular after Islamic and Christian invasion. No amount of twisting history to suite an agenda will change hard realities.

Of course when Hindu knowledge disappears it is replaced by foolish customs which blindly follow the actions and traditions without knowing the true reasons for it. Tamil Naudu is no exception to this.

Most of what passes for 'temple' in tamil nadu villages is just a building with a statute of 'god or godess' which is established without any agama rituals or shilpa shastra principles. They are the equivalent of the dargas which the muslims build.

Nope,regardless of whether they follow agama shastra or not,some people worship there.

There is a deity there and it is a temple.

We have such a temple in our village and the priest is not a brahmin but a kambar,

regarding meat,Indians have the most knowledge about meat and it is not a major part of our diet like most others.

we dont get high on meat like most others,thats great.

But,people inn the village always hunt and eat meat,just for a celebration,just for taste.

 

[Mritunjaya]

Error of his ways? Was that when he became a Buddhist?

Clearly he was not a practicing hindu, his father might have been a hindu. He was well know for his cruelty before he became a buddhist.

What facts? Only those who have imagined.

Everything points to the fact that Indians were vegetarians. Our culture, tradition, religion, social standing etc. you are yet to prove otherwise.

Discomfort? More like mirth. The last time I had so much fun was when we discused Vishwamitra's grand nephew....someone you wondered was whether was the same as your nephew in U.S............

LOL. I remember, you lost that debate too. Good to see you are so sporting about it.

 

[baajey]

In short no.. only a brahim can be a brahim.. thanks anyway.

u have stumbled on to the right answer following wrong reasons.
When @Nair saab said that anybody who practices pre requisite rituals and has vedic knowledge can be a brahmin, he is 100% correct.
But we have to look at the other side of the coin.....if a "dalit" cant even mingle in the "free society" without being persecuted, then u can safely toss away the idea of changing their castes to other castes....n by that ur answer to @Nair saab is correct.

@Topic : today's brahmins have nothing to do with the misdeeds their ancestors committed on my people.
if u guys can be a bit more liberal, u can liken the caste system with aparthied --- the blacks of today couldnt have developed so much without the cooperation of their erstwhile masters, the whites. Similarly, the so called high caste ppl ARE helping the downtrodden to get back to their feet.....
Eg. ME .
having said that, i must say, apart from the last seven years in NCR, my life in NE india has been totally free of caste etc etc, its only when I had to make a caste certificate i came to know that i belong to SC community. north indian villages are vicious in that matter thoh. dont know much about south or the west.

 

[bronxbull]

Rules written by the same lot keeping out the others. The logic is very clear. No amount of ranting can make up for that. The logic is even more clear today, either follow what the majority wants or take a quick short walk to irrelevance. Those are the new rules. Democracy must be such a pain for some.

Trust me,we are a country where 25% choose the winning candidate in an election,there is no majority want at all. 

Reservations for SC, ST's are probably necessary & will be for quite some time. A couple of millenia of discrimination won't change in a hurry. This thread is proof of some attitudes still held. Reservations for OBC's on the other hand are largely baseless(for the majority, valid for a minority) & simply political pandering. If you understand history, you would know that some of the worst violators against the Dalits were land owning OBC's, not Brahmins who were seperated by too many levels socially as to not have much contact.

The longer anyone takes reservation,he ll be discriminated against in the private sector.

I ll never give reference to anyone who has used quote in the private sector.

 

[Bang Galore]

Clearly he was not a practicing hindu, his father might have been a hindu. He was well know for his cruelty before he became a buddhist.

Practicing....non practicing....more certificate issuing...desperate, eh?

Everything points to the fact that Indians were vegetarians. Our culture, tradition, religion, social standing etc. you are yet to prove otherwise.

Everything....in your imagination.....

LOL. I remember, you lost that debate too. Good to see you are so sporting about it.

Now I understand why you keep coming back for more....Somewhere(like in the other thread mentioned) your brain simply blocks out the repeated blows of pain in the rear.......altered reality must be such a nice place.....

Btw, my last post for now, I don't think either of us are adding anything here.

 

[Mritunjaya]

Nope,regardless of whether they follow agama shastra or not,some people worship there.
There is a deity there and it is a temple.
We have such a temple in our village and the priest is not a brahmin but a kambar,
regarding meat,Indians have the most knowledge about meat and it is not a major part of our diet like most others.
we dont get high on meat like most others,thats great.
But,people inn the village always hunt and eat meat,just for a celebration,just for taste.

Not every temple has prana prathista pooja nor is the murthy prepared according to shilpa shastra and nor is every temple prepared as per Agama shastra. I have a temple in the corner of my road which has come in in the last 2 years and it consist of a 4 walled building with a tin shed and a odd looking statue / lump of stone inside. It is still called a temple.

In fact there is also a poojari there who I am pretty sure is not a brahmin, but he pretends to do some arti and collects money from the gullible hindus.

As I said, Hinduism is pretty much dead or dying. People just want to hang on to traditions and customs without knowing anything about it.

 

[bronxbull]

Too many misconceptions here and Mrityunjay,dont pick up silly fights.

Try not to take anything personal.

 

[Mritunjaya]

Practicing....non practicing....more certificate issuing...desperate, eh?

Everything....in your imagination.....

Now I understand why you keep coming back for more....Somewhere(like in the other thread mentioned) your brain simply blocks out the repeated blows of pain in the rear.......altered reality must be such a nice place.....

Btw, my last post for now, I don't think either of us are adding anything here.

As I said, everything points to majority Indians being vegetarians. No raring of sheeps, goat, pigs and chicken for meat. Add to that all Dharmic religion clearly asking for abstinence from meat eating, For me that is pretty conclusive.

That changed after the invasion. Since you have blown the retreat bugle, I will let you get away with that personal attack. how is that for being generous ?

 

[Bang Galore]

That changed after the invasion. Since you have blown the retreat bugle, I will let you get away with that personal attack. how is that for being generous ?

A quick rejoinder....No point in staying on the battlefied after the opponent has been dealt with. ...
See....generosity cuts both ways.

Btw, as before, never personal, all in good fun even if I dislike your positions.

 

[Mritunjaya]

Too many misconceptions here and Mrityunjay,dont pick up silly fights.

Try not to take anything personal.

Which is why I am in pdf. To remove those misconceptions. To challenge ignorance and help people realize the truth. A thankless job but one who has the ability also has the responsibility. Nothing is ever personal for me in pdf.

Posts in forums are like advertisement, you have to grab attention in the 30 sec to get the message across. That requires strong language and picking silly fights.

or would you rather watch a documentary ?

 

[livingdead]

Yes, Brahmins only constitute 5-10% of total population of India, hence lagging in politics
Their representation in bureaucracy, intelligentsia, academia and leadership position is not because of their caste but their hard work and sincerity.
I see no point in caste based reservations as in current scenario any one(irrespective of caste) can achieve these things if he/she in dedicated enough.

The caste based reservation is important because there is very high level of correlation between castes and economic deprivation.
Brahmins and upper caste people are successful as their parents can help them get a head start in the race. Its like having a marathon race in which lower the caste, bigger the burden you will have to carry.
Occasionally you will see some poor or backward caste person being successful and considered hero, but statistically that does not mean much.

Meritocracy in a completely unequal society is a joke.