Bosnia Genocide Part 2 - Urgent warning

[ijazhamad]

big time attitude like wtf idiots

You understand why in another thread I'm so pro-Russia/Ukraine conflict. This will drag Slavs/Serbs and Anglo-Saxons into a direct conflict, while Bosnia could be involved siding with the latter could lessen the impact and allow them to render Serbs and Co., a defeat and degrade their capabilities. Opportune time for Bosnia to get revenge and arm themselves heavily under this pretext. For more go url

 

[Chak Bamu]

I am including you guys because you were included in the original post with videos, and I do not know how many people watched the videos. I did, below are my observations.
@SalarHaqq @retaxis @Irfan Baloch @SecularNationalist @Sainthood 101 @Beast @Muhammed45 @PakFactor @IblinI


Bosnian conflict April 92 - Dec 95

I have to say I am extremely disappointed, I was expecting some sort of an awakening moment, or at the very least new reasoned arguments. I did not find any. I have highlighted the shortcomings with regards to each of the videos you posted.


* First video

This video mostly consists of points created by someone with an axe to grind, peddling a prejudiced viewpoint. According to this so called researched video;

The Serbs did not want to be run by an Islamic extremist government, and the Islamic fundamentalist fighters started the war >> There was zero chance of an Islamic government of any kind in Bosnia at that time, it doesn’t even exist now, after decades of Muslim influence. Islam was not a major factor and neither did it hold any significant influence at the time.

The Muslims fighters only came on the scene after the conflict had already started, with the active backing of Serbia and Croatia towards their respective groups. Those fighters went there to support the Bosnians, just like Orthodox and Catholic fighters went to support their side. So the claim that Islam was a factor is utterly ridiculous and a complete lie. In-fact it shows the Islamophobic agenda of this documentary.

In an interview a doctor was asked if “anyone had died in this camp” the answer was “no, just an old man because there was a lack of medicine” >> so in a refugee/prisoner camp, call it what you want, the only person to die was an old man due to lack of medication, it was all hunky dory, I mean really? it sounds like heaven where no one dies, it was all perfect.

In another interview, a respondent said that “no-one provided aid, there are no foreign organisations providing any help, all the aid is coming from Serbia” >> so all the international aid effort was just for show, right? The world is evil who did nothing to help, but Serbia was the great saviour that came to the assistance of the Bosniaks, how can anyone believe such silly claims/propaganda. I’m sorry, but this is just unbelievable.

A large portion of the film was about the thin/starving man and how his picture was misrepresented, it was also claimed that “Mr Alic, the man was thin because of a childhood condition”, really? So it had nothing to do with any suffering in the camp, but he was suffering from a childhood illness that left him in that condition. Please find below his picture at the time, and a recent picture in his old age. Looks like his so called illness disappeared because he looks very healthy and bulky, he looks better in old age, then in the prime of his youth.

View attachment 814685View attachment 814686

Picking on isolated points to paint a bigger picture is not a good way to build an argument. It doesn’t amount to much, because the sheer amount of evidence that exist to prove Bosnian Muslims genocide is indisputable. You can argue by highlighting few points, but it can’t amount to denial of what took place. 81.3% of civilian deaths were Bosniaks, it was a structured and organised genocide of Bosnian Muslims, with the active support of Serbia and Croatia. Muslim foreign players entered after the extreme suffering of Bosniaks was already taking place.

If we were to believe the claims in this video, there was no massacre of Bosniaks,
Serbs were angels helping everyone and, they did no wrong. The world is telling nothing but lies, seriously?

This video is as believable as the flat earth theory, no moon landing claims, and at the same level as the holocaust deniers. Each of those claims have their own logic, but that does not make them true.
The evidence regarding the genocide of Bosniak people is indisputable.


* Second video

Why are they constantly referring to Bosniaks only as Muslim, but Serbs are Serbs, not Orthodox Christians. Croats are Croats, not Catholic Christians. That is extremely biased reporting. The Bosniak identity is a recognise ethnic group, and they are proud of their ethnicity, then why only refer to them as Muslims, unless it is to feed inbuilt European fear-mongering against them, that’s sad and wrong.

There is nothing unusual or shocking in this video, it points towards possible killings done by Bosnian forces. But the Bosniak they interviewed admitted it, but also clarified that it was soldiers killing soldiers. something I have already said that there will be killing in a war. The fact is 81.3% of civilian deaths were Bosniaks, 10.9% Serbs and 8.3% Croats. When over 81% of victims are from a single community, that very clearly says there was a systematic and organised genocide of that community.

The soldier deaths were more balanced, which points to the truth of that interview with the Bosniak soldier they were blaming. Bosniaks targeted soldiers, in the process civilians also got killed, it is unfair to make exaggerated claims.

Civilian deaths
Bosniaks 81.3%
Serbs 10.9%
Croats 8.3%

Soldier deaths
Bosniaks 53.6%
Serbs 36%
Croats 10.3%

There is also a silly emphasis on so-called arms smuggling to the Bosnian forces, but no mention of Serb and Croat forces being provided weapons and fully supported by Serbia and Croatia. Is the assumption that it is OK for the Serbs and Croats to be provided external support, throughout the war, but if the Bosnians are given arms for their defence, it is wrong, isn’t this a silly hypocritical claim.


* Third video

This starts by referring to a meeting of foreign Muslim fighters in 1995, that’s towards the end of the war. What is so shocking about this?

Why is this even news? By then it is well known that Muslim volunteers went to the aid of Bosnians.
Just like the Russians, Greeks and other Orthodox Christians fought for the Serbs.
And, Catholic volunteers from different European countries fought for the Croats.

I do not understand the point of this video, unless to spread Islamophobia.

It’s OK for Serbs to receive massive help from Serbia and Orthodox Christian groups and individuals. It’s OK for Croats to receive help from Catholic Christian volunteers and groups as well as Croatia. But it is not OK for the Bosnians to get any help, that’s a ridiculous claim, the Bosniak were getting massacred, they needed help more then anyone else.

The Bosniak help is being painted as a religious war, but the Serb and Croat help, which was also religiously motivated has no religious connotations, if this isn’t the height of hypocrisy then I don’t know what is.


* Forth video

There is nothing that deals with the genocide of Bosniak people, or the conduct of the war, it just presents an argument on why it started and such things, which are not relevant to the discussion in this thread. The if’s and but’s are theoretical arguments. This thread is about the effects and the brutality of the Bosnian conflict.



It is unfair to use videos to reinforce exiting prejudices. Every message/argument has to stand the test of reasonableness, just because someone makes a video, that does not mean they have uncovered a hidden truth.
Their message has to make sense, it has to be fair, and based on balanced facts, these video do nothing except try to peddle misinformed lies, that is sad and unfair.


As I previously mentioned, if you feel that some Bosniaks or Muslim volunteers were involved in unlawful killings, and they were not punished, and should have been, then I agree, they should have been punished. But, I am sure there are a lot of Serbs or Croats and their volunteers who should also have been punished, but were not punished. But, these videos do not deal with those issue.

Please remember, that any assumed unlawful killings cannot and do not eliminate the genocide of the Bosnian Muslims, they suffered, it is wrong to deny facts of history, or equalise their suffering with Serbs or Croats.

81.3% of civilian deaths were Bosniak, the rest Serbs and Croats. It cannot be compared, it is wrong to attempt such a thing.

Bravo. Well done & thank you.

I was at Georgia Tech when Bosnian genocide started. I was shocked to see the images coming out of Bosnia. Some of them I will not forget til the day I die - they are permanently imprinted in my mind. It was very clear that Serbs had planned a genocide. The rapidity & ferocity was unbelievable. There were no Bosnians to make a case for themselves. Muslim students quickly organized themselves & started raising awareness & collecting donations. The greater Muslim community came together. There were marches in downtown Atlanta (and other places), political action that culminated in a march on Washington in 1993. Veterans of Civil Rights movement were with us. We marched in many thousands & demanded that America wake up & do its duty as the sole superpower to make peace. Some congressmen came out to address us & to ascertain the composition of the marchers. There were a few Christian & Jews who had joined us in the humanitarian cause - Bosnian war was widely known to be basically a genocide of Muslim Bosnians. The American policy changed after that warm day of May 1993. It was the first large-scale political action by Muslims in American history. I will forever to grateful to the American government for changing its policy in response to our pleadings.

Pakistan, Iran, & Turkey all contributed to the Bosnian cause. Pakistan's help was not just Baktar-Shikan anti-tank missiles; it included not just arms (small arms, ammunition, etc...) but also men - a former head of SSG volunteered & trained the Bosnian soldiers for example. Pakistan, being a poor country gave a good bit of money also. So it was men, money, & material that helped Bosnians from Pakistan. Iran also did a great deal, & so did Turkey. Volunteers from across the globe joined the war. It was a matter of solidarity, not conspiracy as someone alleged earlier. It was no American or Pan-Islamic conspiracy. It was genuine humanitarian action from across the globe. The mere fact that Bosnians not just survived but were able to turn the tide stung the Serbs & their supporters so badly that they still think of the reversal in Serb fortunes to be a matter of conspiracy. It most definitely was not so, & I am a witness to the fact.

A number of Bosnian refugees were relocated around the world - even Pakistan. I met a good number of them. They told harrowing tales of murder & torture. The whole world saw the war as it took place. We know who were the aggressors. We will not forget who did what. We also note who makes a case for Serbs as well.

Pakistani arms industry is far more advanced as compared to the 90s. You guys will be more than enough to provide any support. But the question is, would Pakistan want to embroil itself in a fight far away? It will earn Pakistanis unnecessary new problems from Europe.

1. The policy-makers of today were young people in 1992-95 & know what had happened. They would not have any major problem.
2. Bosnians are stronger today than they were 30 years ago.
3. Pakistan may not have to help much at all. Small arms, ammunition, & some bigger armament is not going to be an issue at all.
4. Pakistanis would not need to fight in Bosnia. There may be some help as advisors etc. But I do not see any large-scale contribution.

Let us hope that peace prevails & the beautiful valleys of Bosnia do not echo with sounds of guns. The world need not be a complicated place.

 

[peagle]

Bravo. Well done & thank you.

I was at Georgia Tech when Bosnian genocide started. I was shocked to see the images coming out of Bosnia. Some of them I will not forget til the day I die - they are permanently imprinted in my mind. It was very clear that Serbs had planned a genocide. The rapidity & ferocity was unbelievable. There were no Bosnians to make a case for themselves. Muslim students quickly organized themselves & started raising awareness & collecting donations. The greater Muslim community came together. There were marches in downtown Atlanta (and other places), political action that culminated in a march on Washington in 1993. Veterans of Civil Rights movement were with us. We marched in many thousands & demanded that America wake up & do its duty as the sole superpower to make peace. Some congressmen came out to address us & to ascertain the composition of the marchers. There were a few Christian & Jews who had joined us in the humanitarian cause - Bosnian war was widely known to be basically a genocide of Muslim Bosnians. The American policy changed after that warm day of May 1993. It was the first large-scale political action by Muslims in American history. I will forever to grateful to the American government for changing its policy in response to our pleadings.

Pakistan, Iran, & Turkey all contributed to the Bosnian cause. Pakistan's help was not just Baktar-Shikan anti-tank missiles; it included not just arms (small arms, ammunition, etc...) but also men - a former head of SSG volunteered & trained the Bosnian soldiers for example. Pakistan, being a poor country gave a good bit of money also. So it was men, money, & material that helped Bosnians from Pakistan. Iran also did a great deal, & so did Turkey. Volunteers from across the globe joined the war. It was a matter of solidarity, not conspiracy as someone alleged earlier. It was no American or Pan-Islamic conspiracy. It was genuine humanitarian action from across the globe. The mere fact that Bosnians not just survived but were able to turn the tide stung the Serbs & their supporters so badly that they still think of the reversal in Serb fortunes to be a matter of conspiracy. It most definitely was not so, & I am a witness to the fact.

A number of Bosnian refugees were relocated around the world - even Pakistan. I met a good number of them. They told harrowing tales of murder & torture. The whole world saw the war as it took place. We know who were the aggressors. We will not forget who did what. We also note who makes a case for Serbs as well.


1. The policy-makers of today were young people in 1992-95 & know what had happened. They would not have any major problem.
2. Bosnians are stronger today than they were 30 years ago.
3. Pakistan may not have to help much at all. Small arms, ammunition, & some bigger armament is not going to be an issue at all.
4. Pakistanis would not need to fight in Bosnia. There may be some help as advisors etc. But I do not see any large-scale contribution.

Let us hope that peace prevails & the beautiful valleys of Bosnia do not echo with sounds of guns. The world need not be a complicated place.

Thank you for providing the prospective from the side of the American pubic, and you are spot on, this tale has been twisted so much, too much. And the Bosnian Muslims decided to forgive and move on, it doesn't mean you forget. But, few have taken that opportunity to twist things by introducing lies and misrepresentations.

This was among the few occasions that America actually stood up to do the right thing, and I am certain that only happened because of Bill Clinton with his liberal idealism, he took notice of the efforts made by you guys,, and the pressure worked. Not knowing the domestic aspect, I had always assumed, it was the pressure from news reporting that worked, but as always people have to stand up, only then they are heard.
Stay blessed.

 

[Goritoes]

1. The policy-makers of today were young people in 1992-95 & know what had happened. They would not have any major problem.

There were Positives and negative aspects of the conflict and its timing, 92-95... 9/11 hadn't happened and Muslims across the world still holds a voice and better image in order to even make direct call to arms without raising CIA or Homeland securities Alarm, now the world is different, and I can bet even if a Genocide is happening Serbs will find many allies who will not just support it but provide all sorts of materialistic, resources to make sure that Serbs this time won't leave any Bosnian alive, we'll know who and which countries will that be...

As for Pakistan, despite Pakistan been in much weaker position on a geopolitical level but when it comes to providing support (every kind) guerilla fighters in still unmatched by many and especially the Serbs, although the distance might be a problem but we did it once and we can do it again, if the War breaks out and we have strong leadership, we might even see Pakistan pushed towards sending its troops to fight openly unless UN intervene, but just as you say lets hope and pray that peace prevails, world already lost millions of people from Covid and now its time to recover.

 

[TNT]

Pakistani arms industry is far more advanced as compared to the 90s. You guys will be more than enough to provide any support. But the question is, would Pakistan want to embroil itself in a fight far away? It will earn Pakistanis unnecessary new problems from Europe.

Exactly, its not wether we have the capability. If we had the capability in 90s, we have it 10x now but do we have the will? What advantage it gives us? Does it serve our national interest? We dont want to unnecessary new issues and problems. Though we would love to use our influence and be part of a peace process.

 

[Foinikas]

This was among the few occasions that America actually stood up to do the right thing, and I am certain that only happened because of Bill Clinton with his liberal idealism, he took notice of the efforts made by you guys,, and the pressure worked.

Seriously? You believe that? You actually believe that? So America bad in Vietnam,America bad in Gulf War 1991,America bad in 2001,2003,2011,Syria and everywhere....but America wanted to help and save Muslims in the middle of Europe when already the UN and EU was involved out of idealism and love for freedom and peace? What this,all of a sudden we're back in 1944,Normandy? Are you guys serious? CLINTON? CLINTON??? "I did not have sexual relationships with that woman,Miss Lewinski" and Hillary "We landed in Bosnia under sniper fire"??? You believe those people? 'Cause they're Democrats?

It was very clear that Serbs had planned a genocide. The rapidity & ferocity was unbelievable. There were no Bosnians to make a case for themselves.

There was no "planned genocide". The rapidity&ferocity that you mentioned was because the ArBiH although had the biggest manpower by far,they had mostly small weapons and very few heavy weapons at first. And that's how the VRS managed to capture territories so fast. Karadzic had warned them in the parliament: "How will you defend your people if there's a war?" However Izetbegovic and the Western media made this question look like a threat. Izetbegovic knew they were outgunned and many of his people would die. And he insisted on declaring independence.

Why was Sarajevo besieged for so long? The Serbs had the heavy weapons and the high ground around the city (and Grbavica which was a Serbian district in Sarajevo),but the ArBiH had more men inside.

So when the Serbs tried to get inside,the ArBiH would destroy their tanks with AT weapons and defend with more men,but they couldn't leave because the Serbs had the heavy weapons outside the city.

Slowly with some victories,black market and help from the Croats and Americans,the ArBiH started getting more and more weapons. Iran and Pakistan's help to them was very important.

The mere fact that Bosnians not just survived but were able to turn the tide stung the Serbs & their supporters so badly that they still think of the reversal in Serb fortunes to be a matter of conspiracy. It most definitely was not so, & I am a witness to the fact.

They turned the tide for two reasons:
1. The Bosniak-Croat War stopped and the two sides formed an alliance against the VRS. At the same time Krajina had collapsed and about 200,000 Serbs fled from Croatia. That meant the HV was free to support the HVO more easily now.
2. The Americans started bombing Serb positions and putting more and more political pressure on both Serbia and Republika Srpska to sign an agreement.

A number of Bosnian refugees were relocated around the world - even Pakistan. I met a good number of them. They told harrowing tales of murder & torture. The whole world saw the war as it took place. We know who were the aggressors. We will not forget who did what. We also note who makes a case for Serbs as well.

Have you heard stories of horror from Serbs? Or Croats? In both the Bosnian war and 1999? I remember how in Greece back in then we used to send humanitarian aid for the Krajina,Republika Srpska and later Serbia proper,the money gathered for humanitarian aid,we would send food,clothes,toys. We would gather them at schools and churches and other places. Serbian children would come to live with Greek families for periods of time to escape the war.
Others who fought there or went there as reporters or lived there,told stories of muslim brutality and jihadi-like crimes.
In case you think this war was black and white. On this side,we know who was the real agressor. Who started this story and who got help from the Western media and American propaganda machine and an administration so corrupt and filled with Zionist ministers.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

Thank you iran and pakistan

Last time we just sent anti tank missiles not any type of jihadi groups.
Bosnian people stayed in Pakistan during war.

 

[Foinikas]

Exactly, its not wether we have the capability. If we had the capability in 90s, we have it 10x now but do we have the will? What advantage it gives us? Does it serve our national interest? We dont want to unnecessary new issues and problems. Though we would love to use our influence and be part of a peace process.

I gave you a thumbs up because that was a very good post. I agree with you there.

 

[peagle]

Seriously? You believe that? You actually believe that? So America bad in Vietnam,America bad in Gulf War 1991,America bad in 2001,2003,2011,Syria and everywhere....but America wanted to help and save Muslims in the middle of Europe when already the UN and EU was involved out of idealism and love for freedom and peace? What this,all of a sudden we're back in 1944,Normandy? Are you guys serious? CLINTON? CLINTON??? "I did not have sexual relationships with that woman,Miss Lewinski" and Hillary "We landed in Bosnia under sniper fire"??? You believe those people? 'Cause they're Democrats?

Up till this point we've had a decent discussion, lets not turn this into a stupid trolling argument.

This is not about America or Clinton, that comment was made in a discussion with someone else, in a separate context, so don't get your panties in a twist and divert the discussion.

You and I are having a separate discussion, if you don't have anything to add to that discussion then I think we are done.

 

[Foinikas]

Up till this point we've had a decent discussion, lets not turn this into a stupid trolling argument.

This is not about America or Clinton, that comment was made in a discussion with someone else, in a separate context, so don't get your panties in a twist and divert the discussion.

You and I are having a separate discussion, if you don't have anything to add to that discussion then I think we are done.

Didn't you do the exact same thing a few pages ago when I was talking with someone else?

Well anyway,let's agree to disagree on the main subject.

 

[peagle]

There were Positives and negative aspects of the conflict and its timing, 92-95... 9/11 hadn't happened and Muslims across the world still holds a voice and better image in order to even make direct call to arms without raising CIA or Homeland securities Alarm, now the world is different, and I can bet even if a Genocide is happening Serbs will find many allies who will not just support it but provide all sorts of materialistic, resources to make sure that Serbs this time won't leave any Bosnian alive, we'll know who and which countries will that be...

As for Pakistan, despite Pakistan been in much weaker position on a geopolitical level but when it comes to providing support (every kind) guerilla fighters in still unmatched by many and especially the Serbs, although the distance might be a problem but we did it once and we can do it again, if the War breaks out and we have strong leadership, we might even see Pakistan pushed towards sending its troops to fight openly unless UN intervene, but just as you say lets hope and pray that peace prevails, world already lost millions of people from Covid and now its time to recover.

You are right, but it was mainly few countries that helped last time, and I think those countries will do so again. Despite the issues you highlighted, I think those Muslim countries who helped last time, are in a far stronger position then they were before. Don't forget, Pakistan was under sanctions itself at the time.

I have no doubt Pakistan will step forward, not just by providing material help, but also in efforts to bring about a peaceful solution. But I highly doubt we would ever send troops without a UN or some sort of international umbrella.

Didn't you do the exact same thing a few pages ago when I was talking with someone else?

Well anyway,let's agree to disagree on the main subject.

Please highlight, when?

 

[Foinikas]

Please highlight, when?

The f....I've been trying to find the post. It's either deleted or I mistook it for another thread. Somebody jumped and said something to me about a reply to someone else. Never mind.

Peagle,are you muslim? Tell me the truth.

 

[retaxis]

In a war the West will try to reduce Muslim deaths like before but they will absolutely not tolerate larger number of Christian deaths so don't even think about Bosnians wiping out Serbs militarily etc. The more Muslim countries want to add fuel to the fire, the more Christians are going to come together and side with Serbs. Doesn't take a genius to figure out which side has more resources.

 

[Foinikas]

In a war the West will try to reduce Muslim deaths like before but they will absolutely not tolerate larger number of Christian deaths so don't even think about Bosnians wiping out Serbs militarily etc. The more Muslim countries want to add fuel to the fire, the more Christians are going to come together and side with Serbs. Doesn't take a genius to figure out which side has more resources.

The thing is that most European countries don't act in the interests of Christianity anymore. Most of the leaders in Europe are not Christians. They are either atheist or freemasons. There are still millions of devout Catholics in France and Spain and other countries. But the majority of the people either don't care about religion or are leftist/liberals. Unfortunately that's how Orthodox countries are becoming now too. Greece,Serbia,Bulgaria.

And the Protestants are a completely different story.

 

[retaxis]

The thing is that most European countries don't act in the interests of Christianity anymore. Most of the leaders in Europe are not Christians. They are either atheist or freemasons. There are still millions of devout Catholics in France and Spain and other countries. But the majority of the people either don't care about religion or are leftist/liberals. Unfortunately that's how Orthodox countries are becoming now too. Greece,Serbia,Bulgaria.

And the Protestants are a completely different story.

Most Western countries are turning atheist but they still have a lot more christian influence then muslim influence and they will be sold a tale of christians being butchered by muslims and react. West simply won't allow christians to be butchered, they don't want muslims butchered either but simply will not allow Muslims to kill/destroy a christian nation. Couple muslim countries want to send jihadists there is only going to make the news in the West and the reaction will always be 10x more troops/supplies/money than what a few muslim countries can provide.

West can't relate to Muslims who don't enjoy drinking which is favourite past time of westerners or eat pork/cover up etc. People in general support those that they can relate more with therefore Europe will simply not allow Muslims to be in advantageous position over their fellow christians. Western anglo led forces are there to help muslims when they are beaten and out of it, as soon as muslims start fighting back west will hold them down and let Serbia hit them again guaranteed. Anglos imperialists are snakes people shouldn't forget.

anyways thats my 2cents i got work tomorrow bye