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Bosnia Genocide Part 2 - Urgent warning

Lately there is so much news coming out about a second Bosnian conflict, yet there is hardly any discussion on PDF.

Last time Muslim countries were not strong enough, still Pakistan supplied anti tank missiles and other weapons to Bosnian forces, and Turkiye also played a big role.

We can also mention Iran. In fact the most multi-faceted role was arguably played by Iran in defending (Sunni) Muslims of Bosnia: Iran provided volunteers (several Iranians were martyred and are buried in Bosnia), advisers, military intelligence, any and all small arms they needed, ammunition (often overlooked but a key item, especially in this case since Bosnians were lacking it sorely during the early period of the war), training (and entire brigade of the Bosnian army was set up and trained by Iran, including ideologically), humanitarian aid by the Iranian Red Crescent, cultural exchanges and more. Iranian arms shipments arrived by aircraft through Turkey, while some reports mention a second route via the Croatian coast.

There's a historic background to Iran's involvement: the leader of the SDA and first President of Bosnia, Alija Izetbegovic, was imprisoned under the former Yugoslavian government for participating in a 1982 pan-Islamic conference in Tehran. Cooperation between Iran and Bosnian Muslim activists reached back several years and was solid when the war erupted. The fact that Belgrade had chosen to support Saddam in his aggression against Iran was another factor which contributed to Iran's determination in supporting Muslim opposition to Yugoslavia.

This incidentally debunks the oft repeated but erroneous contention that Iran views foreign policy through an alleged sectarian prism.

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Iranian shahid honored by Bosnian officials:

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Iranian mojaheds, volunteers and advisers in Bosnia:

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Iranian assisted brigade marching in Zenica, 1994:

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IRGC's Said Ghasemi and friends in Bosnia (background picture):

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Shahid Qasem Soleimani visiting Bosnia:

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Rasoul Heydari, IRGC war veteran, Iranian diplomatic representative and first Iranian martyr in Bosnia:


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We must learn to fight. The kuffar only understand force.
Dutch troops allowed the massacre. The bosnians refused to fight. It was a mess.
As far as I remember, the Bosnians didn't have enough support to fight properly, and they were waiting on the European promises, who after World War 2 said, never again, but they let it happen.
Credit where it is due, it was America who came to the rescue, and few Muslim countries provided the weapons needed for a good fight.

Hope Pakistan foreign office aware of the current situation in bosnia we should be ready for the worse
Don't worry, if they were aware and wake last time, I am sure they are very aware and awake this time as well.

Seems like we are back in the 90s again; talks of Yugoslav Wars. Isn’t Albania a member of NATO and on the verge of joining the EU?
NATO is a tricky thing, it only exists to serve few members, and only helps other members if a member is attacked directly. So, it's unlikely Albania will be able to do much, directly.

I fear the Bosnians are on their own now.... Muslim nations are too busy making peace with Israel and proving themselves as Liberals or appeasers of Hindutvaism... They have lost the will to defend themselves.
Last time around Muslim nations were far weaker, and still had their own problems, when don't they have problems, but still helped as much as they could. It is said, that the delivery of anti tank missiles by Pakistan despite UN sanctions, helped the Bosnian forces turn the tide of war, and put up a decent fight.
This time around, just have a look, we are much stronger, and our public is more aware, social media is a powerful tool and our governments won't dare to remain quiet. The main thing is to remain aware.

big time attitude like wtf idiots
lol, yeah they have similar approach to other Eastern Europeans, they are broadly alike, with plenty of attitude. But there are plenty who recognise the help that was given. I suppose you only met certain types.

The fact that Belgrade had chosen to support Saddam in his aggression against Iran was another factor which contributed to Iran's determination in supporting Muslim opposition to Yugoslavia.
You provided the single biggest reason, Iran follows hard-core self interest, otherwise they would not have supported Armenia against Azerbaijan.
Well, Iran is hard to judge, but if they help who cares why, as long as they help. But, keep the sectarianism out, look at one of the pictures you uploaded, it smells of sectarianism.
 
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Croatians did a lot of genocide
Bosnians did a lot of genocide
Serbs did a lot of genocide

Better to keep this issue regional rather then make it into a political religious issue globally. As soon as muslims from other countries try to support muslims, christians will do the same for Croatia and Serbia u can bet on that. Better to keep it regional like i said.
 
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Watch the documentary "Yugoslavia the avoidable war" and you might change your opinion on the whole subject. Also "Yugoslavia the photos that fooled the world". That's all I'm saying.
 
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You provided the single biggest reason, Iran follows hard-core self interest,

I don't think that was the biggest reason to be honest. It applies to how relations between Iran and Izetbegovic came to be in the 80's - not so much to why Iran supported the Bosnians in the 90's, because by the time the civil war started in Bosnia, Yugoslavia in its former shape had already ceased to exist. So when it came to Belgrade's aid for Saddam, at the time of the Bosnian civil war there was no longer a unified Yugoslav state for Iran to retaliate against (since the major federal republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia had seceded already).

As to the 1982 conference in which Izetbegovic took part, many Islamic personalities and movements were present from various countries - some tolerated by their governments, some in opposition to them (such as Tunisian MB leaders, Sub-Saharan African and East Asian Muslims and so on). In Iran revolutionary fervor was at an all time high only three years after the fall of the monarchy, and pan-Islamic solidarity played (and plays) as much a role in Iranian policy making as classical pursuit of national interest. It's more that in the case of Yugoslavia, Iran's motivation was additionally compounded by the fact that Belgrade was siding with Saddam against Iran.

In Iran's eyes, even the Iran-Iraq war itself was not just about defending territorial integrity and the homeland, but also about saving a revolution with strong anti-imperialist characteristics - while Iraq at the time was being assisted by both superpower blocs (Soviets as well as the west).

otherwise they would not have supported Armenia against Azerbaijan.

It's true that this is a widespread belief, but what most of us don't know is that Iran actually started out by backing Azarbaijan during the first Karabakh conflict in the 90's, and then adopted a neutral position when Baku struck a pan-Turkist tone, complete with implicit encouragement for Azari separatism in Iran. Indeed, Turkish and western media are replete with reports about Iranian military support for Armenia - with which Iran has trade and diplomatic ties, but never is there any concrete evidence presented for this alleged military relationship. Even in the latest Karabakh conflict, the president of Azarbaijan Republic stated in an interview with France's Le Figaro that Baku had bought weapons from Iran among others.

Images and videos of Iranian officers similar to the ones I shared about Bosnia exist for the 90's Karabakh war, showing them alongside Azarbaijani forces. You can find a few here at PDF, as user @Muhammed45 posted them before.

But, keep the sectarianism out, look at one of the pictures you uploaded, it smells of sectarianism.

I'm not sure which one you're thinking of?
 
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Don't worry times have changed we're not in the 90's anymore.

But let's assume something happens anyway there is no doubt that Turkish army will intervene. Maybe Game of Drones part III will start and we can enjoy the fireworks. 😡
 
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Croatians did a lot of genocide
Bosnians did a lot of genocide
Serbs did a lot of genocide

Better to keep this issue regional rather then make it into a political religious issue globally. As soon as muslims from other countries try to support muslims, christians will do the same for Croatia and Serbia u can bet on that. Better to keep it regional like i said.

You mean the same way the Jews did a lot of genocide during the second world war.
In the Bosnian conflict, most of the victims were Muslim, by a large margin, you are making an illogical comparison.

The Muslims fought back, so people got killed, they were not the aggressors, that is a fact. And, Muslims did not jump in to help, neither will they this time, unless provoked. Watch the video and other news, it's not the Muslims who are provoking, and this isn't purely about religion, but everyone supports those people who they think as one of your own, just like Russia supported the Serbs, before any Muslims became involved.

I'm sorry to say, but your argument is silly, because it is the Serb leadership that is renewing the conflict, so please concentrate on where the blame is due, and not try to peddle equivalence. That is not right.
 
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You understand why in another thread I'm so pro-Russia/Ukraine conflict. This will drag Slavs/Serbs and Anglo-Saxons into a direct conflict, while Bosnia could be involved siding with the latter could lessen the impact and allow them to render Serbs and Co., a defeat and degrade their capabilities. Opportune time for Bosnia to get revenge and arm themselves heavily under this pretext.
"In our policy we make the bear strangle the hyena's whom are attacking us."

Sultan Abdulhamid II
 
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I don't think that was the biggest reason to be honest. It applies to how relations between Iran and Izetbegovic came to be in the 80's - not so much to why Iran supported the Bosnians in the 90's, because by the time the civil war started in Bosnia, Yugoslavia in its former shape had already ceased to exist. So when it came to Belgrade's aid for Saddam, at the time of the Bosnian civil war there was no longer a unified Yugoslav state for Iran to retaliate against (since the major federal republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia had seceded already).

As to the 1982 conference in which Izetbegovic took part, many Islamic personalities and movements were present from various countries - some tolerated by their governments, some in opposition to them (such as Tunisian MB leaders, Sub-Saharan African and East Asian Muslims and so on). In Iran revolutionary fervor was at an all time high only three years after the fall of the monarchy, and pan-Islamic solidarity played (and plays) as much a role in Iranian policy making as classical pursuit of national interest. It's more that in the case of Yugoslavia, Iran's motivation was additionally compounded by the fact that Belgrade was siding with Saddam against Iran.

In Iran's eyes, even the Iran-Iraq war itself was not just about defending territorial integrity and the homeland, but also about saving a revolution with strong anti-imperialist characteristics - while Iraq at the time was being assisted by both superpower blocs (Soviets as well as the west).



It's true that this is a widespread belief, but what most of us don't know is that Iran actually started out by backing Azarbaijan during the first Karabakh conflict in the 90's, and then adopted a neutral position when Baku struck a pan-Turkist tone, complete with implicit encouragement for Azari separatism in Iran. Indeed, Turkish and western media are replete with reports about Iranian military support for Armenia - with which Iran has trade and diplomatic ties, but never is there any concrete evidence presented for this alleged military relationship. Even in the latest Karabakh conflict, the president of Azarbaijan Republic stated in an interview with France's Le Figaro that Baku had bought weapons from Iran among others.

Images and videos of Iranian officers similar to the ones I shared about Bosnia exist for the 90's Karabakh war, showing them alongside Azarbaijani forces. You can find a few here at PDF, as user @Muhammed45 posted them before.



I'm not sure which one you're thinking of?

You make valid points, and I can see the logic in your thinking, but there's always another story, if both sides have value then it becomes difficult to reach a single conclusion.

If I remember correctly Serbia and Montenegro were the legal inheritors of Yugoslavian legacy, thereafter just Serbia. These things can be murky, and I'm sure Iran saw Belgrade as still Yugoslavia. But I take your point that it may not have been the single most important factor, but a large factor non-the-less.

From my understanding, the Azeri's seem to take the view that because there is a very large Azeri community in Iran, Iran wants to keep Azerbaijan down or under control. I won't side with who is right, but I really do not see why Azerbaijan becoming closer with Turkiye should bother Iran, and support a country that is trying to destroy it, it seems a bit extreme.

The picture with that religious head gear, train them, help them, but don't indoctrinate them, I find that troubling everywhere because the help is negatively coloured by peddling ones own thinking onto others.

If we take the Iran/Iraq conflict as an example, because you mentioned it. Pakistan remained neutral, there was a lot of pressure on Pakistan to side with Iraq, but Pakistan stood it's ground and remained neutral. I have heard or read stories where Pakistan actually helped Iran, I do not remember where I read it so I won't push on this point but I do remember reading about it somewhere.

In my book, helping Armenia is simply unforgivable. There are too many if's and but's when it comes to Iran. As I mentioned earlier, if they help great, I personally don't care why. Iran is a strong country, so should play its part.
 
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Legendary leader of Bosnians, Alija Izzetbegovic a day before his death said this to President Erdoğan: "Tayyip you're sons of the conquerors. This country is entrusted to you. I'm leaving it in your hands protect it.

Turks have sworn to defend Bosnia at all costs. 🇹🇷
 
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You provided the single biggest reason, Iran follows hard-core self interest, otherwise they would not have supported Armenia against Azerbaijan.
@SalarHaqq
IRGC general standing beside Heydar Aliev.
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Video of his speech for Azeri forces and Iranian volunteers.

Iran became neutral in this fight when Azerbaijan filled its army with Israeli made weapons, allowed broadcasting of channels like Gunaz TV which insults Iran and Persian people 24/7 and at same time supports seperatists and pan Turkism non sense.

When Azerbaijan allowed Israeli agents use its soil to terrorize Iranian nuclear scientists such as Majid Shahriyari the Azeri nuclear scientist of Iran. Only then Iran stopped sending forces/weapins to Azeribaijan. Despite all the odds, Iran never chose sides in this conflict and only asked for libertion of occupied lands plus ensruring Safety of Armenian Christians in those liberated areas.
 
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If I remember correctly Serbia and Montenegro were the legal inheritors of Yugoslavian legacy, thereafter just Serbia. These things can be murky, and I'm sure Iran saw Belgrade as still Yugoslavia. But I take your point that it may not have been the single most important factor, but a large factor non-the-less.

Those were the successors of Yugoslavia indeed. However, they did not directly intervene in the Bosnian war. Also, in 1998 i.e. only three years after the end of the conflict in Bosnia, Kosovo went up in flames. And during that latter war which was waged directly on the soil of what remained of Yugoslavia, Iran did not intervene militarily. If Iran wanted to punish the Yugoslavs and/or Serbia for their role during the Iran-Iraq war, that's where it would have acted in priority, but it chose not to.

Iran isn't so much into long term revenge for past conflicts. An example for this is how Tehran forewent demands for war reparations vis a vis Iraq after the fall of Saddam, whilst Kuwait didn't.

From my understanding, the Azeri's seem to take the view that because there is a very large Azeri community in Iran, Iran wants to keep Azerbaijan down or under control. I won't side with who is right, but I really do not see why Azerbaijan becoming closer with Turkiye should bother Iran, and support a country that is trying to destroy it, it seems a bit extreme.

Iran isn't bothered by Ankara-Baku relations. But only by two things:

- Zionist presence in Azarbaijan Republic, and their reported use of its territory to conduct operations against Iran. Some years ago, Iran downed an Isra"el"i spy drone. Considering the distance to Iran's borders and the range of that UAV type, there's really not many plausible places it could have taken off from besides the Baku republic. Likewise, Iranian intelligence is reported to have traced people involved in assassinations of Iranian nuclear scientists back to Azarbaijan, which is said to have been used as an operational hub by Mossad.

- Azari separatism against Iran being indirectly or implicitly encouraged or tolerated by the regime in Baku.

Tehran does not need to keep Baku down on grounds that there's a large Azari-speaking population in Iran. Frankly, these are extremely well integrated and patriotic Iranian citizens. So many nationalistic figures in Iran's history have been of Azari descent, such as Heydar Khan Amu-Oghli or Sattar Khan during the 1906-1910 Constitutional Revolution to name just two. Also Iran's current Supreme Leader, ayatollah Khamenei, is a native Azari speaker himself. Many of the Iranian users at PDF (Muhammad45, aryobarzan, Shawnee etc) have Azari roots too, and as you can see Iran needn't worry about their loyalty.

The picture with that religious head gear, train them, help them, but don't indoctrinate them, I find that troubling everywhere because the help is negatively coloured by peddling ones own thinking onto others.

Well, but if I may, this doesn't reflect sectarianism. It's rather general Islamic identity beyond sectarian divides, which is put forth in that example.

There's a reason Iranian advisers chose the name Mohammad Rasul Allah (s) rather than the names of Shia Imams (like they often do in Iran) for the headbands of these Bosnian troops: since the Prophet (s) is respected by Sunni brothers as much as by the Shias, they deliberately opted for his name and title.

You may want to argue that they ought not to have transmitted Islamic ideology to their trainees and rather kept it fully "secular" so to say, but it's not an act of Shia sectarianism at any rate.

If we take the Iran/Iraq conflict as an example, because you mentioned it. Pakistan remained neutral, there was a lot of pressure on Pakistan to side with Iraq, but Pakistan stood it's ground and remained neutral. I have heard or read stories where Pakistan actually helped Iran, I do not remember where I read it so I won't push on this point but I do remember reading about it somewhere.

Yes, as far as I know, Pakistan helped by supplying some medics to treat wounded Iranian soldiers.

In my book, helping Armenia is simply unforgivable.

As said, I've never seen any evidence to this effect. Only real material proof I've seen is of Iranian help for Azarbaijan early during the first Karabakh war, and then observable Iranian military neutrality in the conflict, while Iran also publicly acknowledged Baku's legal claim to Karabakh.
 
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@SalarHaqq
IRGC general standing beside Heydar Aliev.
View attachment 814282

Video of his speech for Azeri forces and Iranian volunteers.

Iran became neutral in this fight when Azerbaijan filled its army with Israeli made weapons, allowed broadcasting of channels like Gunaz TV which insults Iran and Persian people 24/7 and at same time supports seperatists and pan Turkism non sense.

When Azerbaijan allowed Israeli agents use its soil to terrorize Iranian nuclear scientists such as Majid Shahriyari the Azeri nuclear scientist of Iran. Only then Iran stopped sending forces/weapins to Azeribaijan. Despite all the odds, Iran never chose sides in this conflict and only asked for libertion of occupied lands plus ensruring Safety of Armenian Christians in those liberated areas.

I do not know enough to form a solid judgement, judgments are always a journey of learning, so I take on board what you say. I have no reasons to doubt you, so I'll accept. But I'm afraid I still think Iran should not have supported Armenia, show displeasure or pressure in other ways, but outright support, I'm sorry I just cannot understand that.

Pakistan has done a lot for Afghan people for over 40 years, helped them in so many ways. In the decades before the Soviet invasion, they attacked Pakistan twice, we still helped them and they are constantly ungrateful, but we still help them.

I actually have a lot of anger towards Afghanistan right now, bordering on hate. But I know it is not permanent feeling, because I see them as brothers. If Pakistan ever supported a country that was attacking Afghanistan, I would appose Pakistani actions. Therefore, I still think supporting Armenia was a bit extreme, but we all have different ways at looking at things, and those are mine. I appreciate you sharing your information.

Iran isn't bothered by Ankara-Baku relations. But only by two things:

- Zionist presence in Azarbaijan Republic, and their reported use of its territory to conduct operations against Iran. Some years ago, Iran downed an Isra"el"i spy drone over her territory. Considering the distance to Iran's borders and the range of that UAV model, there's really not many plausible places it could have taken off from other the Baku republic. Likewise, Iranian intelligence is reported to have traced people involved in assassinations of Iranian nuclear scientists back to Azarbaijan, which is said to have been used as an operational hub by Mossad.

- Azari separatism against Iran being indirectly or implicitly encouraged or tolerated by the regime in Baku.

Iran does not need to keep Baku down on grounds that it has a large Azari-speaking population. Frankly, these are extremely well integrated and patriotic Iranian citizens. So many nationalistic figures in Iran's history have been of Azari descent, such as Heydar Khan Amu Oghli or Sattar Khan during the 1906-1910 Constitutional Revolution. Also Iran's current Supreme Leader, ayatollah Khamenei, is a native Azari speaker himself. Many of the Iranian users at PDF (Muhammad45, aryobarzan, Shawnee etc) have Azari roots too, as you can see Iran needn't worry about their loyalty.



Well, but that doesn't reflect sectarianism. It's rather general Islamic identity which is put forth here, beyond sectarian lines.

In fact, there's a reason Iranian advisers chose the name Mohammad Rasul Allah (s) rather than the names of Shia Imams for the headbands of these Bosnian troops: since the Prophet (s) is respected by Sunni brothers as much as by the Shias, they deliberately opted for his name and title.

You may want to argue that they ought not to have transmitted Islamic ideology to their trainees and rather kept it "secular" so to say, but it's not an act of Shia sectarianism at any rate.



As far as I know, Pakistan helped by supplying some medics to treat wounded Iranian soldiers.



As said, I've never seen any evidence to this effect. Only proof of Iranian help for Azarbaijan early during the first Karabakh war, and then observable Iranian military neutrality in the conflict, while Iran also publicly acknowledged Baku's legal claim to Karabakh.

Let's please get back to the topic, that's far more urgent, and important.


Below are figures for those who seem to think everyone suffered equally.
Please do not spread lies.

Screenshot (15).png


The head of the UN war crimes tribunal's Demographic Unit, Ewa Tabeau, has called it "the largest existing database on Bosnian war victims", and it is considered the most authoritative account of human losses in the Bosnian war. More than 240,000 pieces of data were collected, checked, compared and evaluated by an international team of experts in order to produce the 2007 list of 97,207 victims' names.
 
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It's funny how Americans suddenly support the Muslims and people are not even suspecting why. That American media started a propaganda campaign against Serbs and people who will now shout loud and mock American foreign policy as propaganda machine that started wars based on lies,suddenly believe Madeleine Albright and the Clinton administration.

Nobody mentions the jihadis who went to Bosnia and were later leading figures of terrorist groups. The beheadings and murders of Serbs and the desecration of Orthodox churches is not mentioned. The slaughter of entire villages is ignored by some people. Like @retaxis said,all sides did bad things. But accusing the Serbs of genocide is falling for American and Western European propaganda.
 
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ISI was selling popcorn in the 90s according to some members here
 
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