Boeing’s Make in India F-18 offer comes with a rider but it’s still a better offer claims Source

[sathya]

It only means Gripen is not offering the most.. May be they cannot.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

exactly, we must do what's best for our country.
by the way, why India is not Reverse Engineering any Defence Equipment ?

respecting IPR regime.. thats been India's pet theme line for years

 

[Bheemsen]

I have been saying from start if rafale is not coming at correct price , F18sh is best option available.

 

[GURU DUTT]

I have been saying from start if rafale is not coming at correct price , F18sh is best option available.

ya thats right and we save a lot of money in spares and weapons as most of israeli weapons we have are compatiable to "plug & play level" with american platforms as they are designed for F-15s & F-16s + tejas also have the same GE404 and GE414 in future projects like F/A-18E/F

in short if rafale is sexy then super hornet is fighting fit like no other

 

[thesolar65]

I bet one day China will offer to build J-20 or J----whatever in India!!

 

[GURU DUTT]

gora ya kala

now thats what people call expereance

 

[axisofevil]

sections, Pakistan, Strings, 1971, USA Enterprise

Says the fake Indian

 

[axisofevil]

shut up wannabe white OE ****

Did you take your does of fair and lovely?

 

[Techy]

India Mulling Manufacture of Second Line of Fighter Planes: IAF Chief

Jamnagar: India is considering manufacturing indigenously a second line of fighter aircraft and a decision on the issue will be taken within a year, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha said on Friday.

Asked about the depleting squadron-strength in the Indian Air Force, he said there were aircraft that will soon become obsolete, and while the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas and under-process Rafale deal will help fill some of the gap, India still needs one more line of fighter planes, which will be made in India.

'India to manufacture fighter planes'

"Within a year, some decision will be taken on what will be the second line of the fighter aircraft," the air chief said.

"One more line of fighter aircraft is likely to be made in India," Raha said.

The IAF chief said he expected the deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets with France to be concluded soon.

Rafale is a multi-role twin-engine aircraft designed and built by Dassault Aviation of France.

India's squadron-strength is down, with reports suggesting that only 32 squadrons are operational at present, compared with the ideal number of 42 squadrons.

Raha was visiting the frontline Jamnagar airbase to attend a ceremony where President Pranab Mukherjee presented the President's Standard to 119 Helicopter Unit and President's Colours to 28 Equipment Depot of the Indian Air Force.

http://www.oneindia.com/india/india...of-second-line-of-fighter-planes-2031647.html

@PARIKRAMA and @others it seems the rumor was correct about second line of fighter aircraft under MII. IAF chief has now confirmed the same. Now this makes things more interesting as he seems to talk out second line apart from the Rafale line . Now this is gonna set the ball rolling among all plane makers

 

[Abingdonboy]

This is a better offer.

How can you possible say that? Boeing are in no postion to promise ToT- that has to go through the US Congress and government who have refused to transfer any such crtical tech even to their allies, they won't even sell the F-22 to their closest friends. India has no chance of getting ToT for the most critical parts of the F-18.

Then there are other issues:

1) Price, the generally held misconcpetion is that the F-18E/F will be massively cheaper than the Rafale but this has no basis in facts. As @Taygibay has pointed out, the price for Rafales is pretty reasonable:

https://defence.pk/threads/real-jet-fighter-prices-rafale-f-35-2015-16.423797/

The RAAF's 24 F-18 SHs cost them around $250 USD per plance

2) Boeing has said they will retain full sovereign control over any Indian F-18 production line meaning there would be little industrial benefits for the Indian aerospace industry and Boeing would be the sole beneficary.

3) Like every other US origin military product the F-18s (and every single nut, bolt, accessory, display etc) would be subject to USG and Congress clearance and would be at their whim, look at the trouble the PAF has in getting just 8 F-16s from them, do you want this for the IAF? Do you want a frontline combat system that is controlled by a foreign entity to such a degree?

4) The F-18 LOST the MMRCA the first tie around on TECHNICAL grounds, what's changed now?

5) Like all US equipment these birds would come with increidbly restrictive and intrusive end-user agreements ie IAF would have no soverign control of their own assets, there would be sealed compartments that only Boeing officals could look at and the USG would control/monitor the movements of these assets. Considering this is a strategic purchase this set of rules is not congruent with that goal and what about nuclear delviery? Do you think the US would allow these birds to be used for such a role? Not a chance.



Boeing are trying to pawn off a redundant product on some unsuspecting customer (like LM with the F-16) now the market for the F-18 has all but dried up- India is the last hope they have. Conversly, the Rafale has a clear and well supported future road map well into the future that the IAF would benefit from greatly over the life of their birds. This is a last ditch effort for Boeing.


So the Boeing offer is for an inferior product at arguably little discount with no tangible industrial benefits and yet it is still a better deal than Dassualt's? How does this work? @anant_s @PARIKRAMA @surya kiran @Picdelamirand-oil @Koovie @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @SpArK @GURU DUTT @Armani @randomradio @Ankit Kumar @knight11

@PARIKRAMA and @others it seems the rumor was correct about second line of fighter aircraft under MII. IAF chief has now confirmed the same. Now this makes things more interesting as he seems to talk out second line apart from the Rafale line . Now this is gonna set the ball rolling among all plane makers

He is speaking in line with what the DM has said but has not indicated this means a second type of fighter just a dedicated MII line- remember the 36 Rafales are coming off the shelf so "second line" makes NO sense whatsoever. The IAF has no interest in inducting a second type and just 36 Rafales- that just isn't economical for an airforce the size of the IAF.

See the problem is, nobody in the IAF or IN want the teen series. The IN would rather order more Mig29Ks rather than the F-18. Saab is a completely no.

Exactly and it is a proven fact given the IN has shown no interest in the F-18 for their future carriers. Dassualt has breifed the IN on the other hand and given the IN wants as much commonality with the IAF as possible, their snub of the F-18 clearly shows what chances the IN beleives the F-18 offer has in India.

I have been saying from start if rafale is not coming at correct price , F18sh is best option available.

Either back it up or don't make such declarative statements.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

India Mulling Manufacture of Second Line of Fighter Planes: IAF Chief

Jamnagar: India is considering manufacturing indigenously a second line of fighter aircraft and a decision on the issue will be taken within a year, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha said on Friday.

Asked about the depleting squadron-strength in the Indian Air Force, he said there were aircraft that will soon become obsolete, and while the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas and under-process Rafale deal will help fill some of the gap, India still needs one more line of fighter planes, which will be made in India.

'India to manufacture fighter planes'

"Within a year, some decision will be taken on what will be the second line of the fighter aircraft," the air chief said.

"One more line of fighter aircraft is likely to be made in India," Raha said.

The IAF chief said he expected the deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets with France to be concluded soon.

Rafale is a multi-role twin-engine aircraft designed and built by Dassault Aviation of France.

India's squadron-strength is down, with reports suggesting that only 32 squadrons are operational at present, compared with the ideal number of 42 squadrons.

Raha was visiting the frontline Jamnagar airbase to attend a ceremony where President Pranab Mukherjee presented the President's Standard to 119 Helicopter Unit and President's Colours to 28 Equipment Depot of the Indian Air Force.

http://www.oneindia.com/india/india...of-second-line-of-fighter-planes-2031647.html

@PARIKRAMA and @others it seems the rumor was correct about second line of fighter aircraft under MII. IAF chief has now confirmed the same. Now this makes things more interesting as he seems to talk out second line apart from the Rafale line . Now this is gonna set the ball rolling among all plane makers

Bro again, look at what he said and think for a moment.. I quote the same news from another source


Pointing out that some of the aircrafts like the MiG-29, Jaguar and Mirage were being upgraded, the air chief said, “Some of our old fleets are becoming absolutely obsolete and so we need to replace them.”

“We are likely to get the Rafale soon… The government will also be inducting LCA in very large numbers — close to 120 as of now… They are also thinking of setting up one more line of fighter aircrafts in India under the Make in India project, so that the dwindling fighter aircraft force can be replaced at the shortest possible time. It is going to mature in a year,” Raha added.

Though Raha did not expand on the matter, defence officials said the plan could be to start indigenous production of another fighter jet mostly under the PPP mode.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/fighter-aircrafts-make-in-india-iaf/

The two lines he is referring is
1st LCA line ramping from present production of 8 jets per year to a second line which will initially produce 8 jets per year implying a total of 16 jets per year (both lines). Later this second line will be upgraded to produce standalone 16 jets a year making LCA production 24 jets a year (both lines)


The second line under MII has to be a one which needs a discussion and that has to be so advanced that CNC has to be involved. Apart from Dassault there is no other including Saab, LM or Boeing who are in so active advance stages of negotiations.

Now again I am stating what Mr V K kaushal said about MII binding constraints

In its decision-making process, the DAC must reflect the following binding constraints:

• Make in India with a view to maximising value addition in India over the life cycle of the aircraft being acquired.
• Time frame to build capabilities. This needs to be arrived at keeping in mind the urgency of plugging the capability gaps.
• Technology and quality: There is not only a need for state of the art technology that may not be available within the country but also reliability.
• Limited/no experience/capacity in the private sector. The private sector would need hand holding and a long term relationship arrangement.
• Budgetary support. The existing allocation level and the expected growth rate may not be able to support the funding needs of all these programmes.

He further talked about PPP model on aviation sector to be modelled like this

A PPP typically has the following characteristics:

• The private sector is responsible for carrying out or operating the project and takes on a substantial portion of the associated project risks.
• During the operational life of the project the public sector’s role is to monitor the performance of the private partner and enforce the terms of the contract.
• The private sector’s costs would be recovered in whole or in part from charges related to the use of the service and or annuity payments from the public sector.
• Public sector payments are based on performance standards set out in the contract.
• Often the private sector will contribute the majority of the project’s capital costs, although this need not always be the case.
• It may often be necessary to build or add to existing assets in order to meet the infrastructure needs of the project.

Keeping the above general as well as the specific requirements of each programme in mind, the bidding entity would have to be an SPV (Special Purpose Vehicle) comprising of an Indian entity (ies) and an OEM. Based on the targeted indigenous effort content, the payment could be a specified percentage in Rupees and the balance in US Dollars.

Thus here the three entities are Dassault Aviation, Reliance Group Company and most probably HAL too.

++
If you see to have such an advance state of discussion barring Dassault there is no other entity who may have progressed to this level of structure that before 31.12.2016, the deal could be signed.

In case of Saab, they are yet to indentify the pvt sector company with whom they want to tie up and of course HAL is also there from government side.

In case of LM nothing is clear.

In case of Boeing, Boeing wants to go all alone.

So logically, all the 3 (Saab, LM and Boeing) are kite flying as none of them are atm in advance level of discussion to proceed to PPP model of aircraft manufacturing.

@Abingdonboy For your reading as this points to what we have talked earlier.. But GOI does not want HAL to be left out completely so i am guessing the public sector is HAL here who will hold a minority stake in the SPV and also guide the pvt sector company who does not have any experience.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Bro again, look at what he said and think for a moment.. I quote the same news from another source


Pointing out that some of the aircrafts like the MiG-29, Jaguar and Mirage were being upgraded, the air chief said, “Some of our old fleets are becoming absolutely obsolete and so we need to replace them.”

“We are likely to get the Rafale soon… The government will also be inducting LCA in very large numbers — close to 120 as of now… They are also thinking of setting up one more line of fighter aircrafts in India under the Make in India project, so that the dwindling fighter aircraft force can be replaced at the shortest possible time. It is going to mature in a year,” Raha added.

Though Raha did not expand on the matter, defence officials said the plan could be to start indigenous production of another fighter jet mostly under the PPP mode.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/fighter-aircrafts-make-in-india-iaf/

The two lines he is referring is
1st LCA line ramping from present production of 8 jets per year to a second line which will initially produce 8 jets per year implying a total of 16 jets per year (both lines). Later this second line will be upgraded to produce standalone 16 jets a year making LCA production 24 jets a year (both lines)


The second line under MII has to be a one which needs a discussion and that has to be so advanced that CNC has to be involved. Apart from Dassault there is no other including Saab, LM or Boeing who are in so active advance stages of negotiations.

Now again I am stating what Mr V K kaushal said about MII binding constraints

In its decision-making process, the DAC must reflect the following binding constraints:

• Make in India with a view to maximising value addition in India over the life cycle of the aircraft being acquired.
• Time frame to build capabilities. This needs to be arrived at keeping in mind the urgency of plugging the capability gaps.
• Technology and quality: There is not only a need for state of the art technology that may not be available within the country but also reliability.
• Limited/no experience/capacity in the private sector. The private sector would need hand holding and a long term relationship arrangement.
• Budgetary support. The existing allocation level and the expected growth rate may not be able to support the funding needs of all these programmes.

He further talked about PPP model on aviation sector to be modelled like this

A PPP typically has the following characteristics:

• The private sector is responsible for carrying out or operating the project and takes on a substantial portion of the associated project risks.
• During the operational life of the project the public sector’s role is to monitor the performance of the private partner and enforce the terms of the contract.
• The private sector’s costs would be recovered in whole or in part from charges related to the use of the service and or annuity payments from the public sector.
• Public sector payments are based on performance standards set out in the contract.
• Often the private sector will contribute the majority of the project’s capital costs, although this need not always be the case.
• It may often be necessary to build or add to existing assets in order to meet the infrastructure needs of the project.

Keeping the above general as well as the specific requirements of each programme in mind, the bidding entity would have to be an SPV (Special Purpose Vehicle) comprising of an Indian entity (ies) and an OEM. Based on the targeted indigenous effort content, the payment could be a specified percentage in Rupees and the balance in US Dollars.

Thus here the three entities are Dassault Aviation, Reliance Group Company and most probably HAL too.

++
If you see to have such an advance state of discussion barring Dassault there is no other entity who may have progressed to this level of structure that before 31.12.2016, the deal could be signed.

In case of Saab, they are yet to indentify the pvt sector company with whom they want to tie up and of course HAL is also there from government side.

In case of LM nothing is clear.

In case of Boeing, Boeing wants to go all alone.

So logically, all the 3 (Saab, LM and Boeing) are kite flying as none of them are atm in advance level of discussion to proceed to PPP model of aircraft manufacturing.

@Abingdonboy For your reading as this points to what we have talked earlier.. But GOI does not want HAL to be left out completely so i am guessing the public sector is HAL here who will hold a minority stake in the SPV and also guide the pvt sector company who does not have any experience.

I don't understand the compulsion from som many to complicate things, as the saying goes the simplest solution is often the best.

As such, as we have been promting for so long the result will be the simplest:

1)MKI--->FGFA (Nasik production line of HAL, FGFA to be in service from 2025/6)
2) LCA (under HAL with the potential for a second line to be added, intially 8/year but ramped up to 16/year from 2018 )
3)AMCA (under devlopment, to enter service by 2030)
4) Rafale (production line in India run with an Indian private partner with full ToT that will ensure 90% availability)

This mix will replace the MiG-21s, MiG-27s, Jaguars, Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s. Adding a seconf MMRCA type makes 0 sense whatsoever, AFs all over the world are reducing their fighter types, why should the IAF buck this trend? What is so unique about the IAF?

 

[Techy]

@Abingdonboy and @PARIKRAMA,
Bro, I am all for Rafale as you both advocate in each thread. I was a little skeptical about this particular line by Raha:
"Within a year, some decision will be taken on what will be the second line of the fighter aircraft," the air chief said."

It doesn't stress on either of Rafale or LCA but tells The Second Type of aircraft is yet to be decided. Now, all Anti-Rafale personals are going to catch this line and promote there product. If MoD is still keeping all the options open and IAF is also in line with this approach then I hope it doesn't come at the cost of Rafale MII line.

I was trying to make some fun of the article by the way as people are going to twist that line for their own agenda.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Techy I understand you bro

As for:

"Within a year, some decision will be taken on what will be the second line of the fighter aircraft," the air chief said."

It is a throwaway line that doesn't mean anything really. I guess Raha is just parroting what the DM/MoD has told him to say because this is the exact line the DM has used a number of times. I suppose the intention is to be ambiguious in line with MP's pressure tactics with Dassualt.

The way i read this comment is that the first line of fighter aircraft is the LCA because there is ZERO other new production line for fighter aircraft being established right now is there? And thus the MoD will select whether it is Dassualt, Boeing, LM or SAAB that will produce the second fighter line in India but as @PARIKRAMA has pointed out- Dassualt remains in pole position for this. It seems almost unfathomable that anyone else would get this deal, the others all come with significant downsides, the Rafale/IAF, India/France/Dassualt partnership objectively seems to be (by far) the best option on the table AND the option that has progressed the furthest.

I would concede that Boeing probably is in second place behind the Rafale offer but it still has next to no chance:


1) Dassualt
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2)Boeing
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3) SAAB
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4) Lockhead Martin

 

[randomradio]

@PARIKRAMA and @others it seems the rumor was correct about second line of fighter aircraft under MII. IAF chief has now confirmed the same. Now this makes things more interesting as he seems to talk out second line apart from the Rafale line . Now this is gonna set the ball rolling among all plane makers

It was never a rumour.

4) The F-18 LOST the MMRCA the first tie around on TECHNICAL grounds, what's changed now?

The purpose of the second line is not to match MMRCA. It is to be cheap. If the aircraft is cheap, it will be bought. It's that simple.

@Abingdonboy and @PARIKRAMA,
Bro, I am all for Rafale as you both advocate in each thread. I was a little skeptical about this particular line by Raha:
"Within a year, some decision will be taken on what will be the second line of the fighter aircraft," the air chief said."

It doesn't stress on either of Rafale or LCA but tells The Second Type of aircraft is yet to be decided. Now, all Anti-Rafale personals are going to catch this line and promote there product. If MoD is still keeping all the options open and IAF is also in line with this approach then I hope it doesn't come at the cost of Rafale MII line.

I was trying to make some fun of the article by the way as people are going to twist that line for their own agenda.

The first line is Rafale. Rafale will be built in India, that's guaranteed as soon as the first 36 are signed. As Trappier said, they are preparing to submit their proposal for the first 90 to MoD.

The second line is between SH, F-16, Gripen, Mig-35 and Typhoon. Of course Typhoon has no chance. So the competition is between SH, F-16, Mig-35 and Gripen.

The second line has nothing to do with the Rafale line. It won't interfere with Rafale MII.

LCA lines are independent from the other two lines.