Boeing/SAAB to unveil their T-X design today

[SQ8]

Lockheed has the contract for F-35 so its revenue stream is covered and Northrop has the LRS-B... all big ticket. Boeing's contracts for the C-17 is ending, and the KC-46 program is not out yet... so the balance needs to be maintained.

Where do you get those news that Boeing T-X and Shafagh are same, in your dreams

It would be unfair to dismiss his claim outright.

The similarities are somewhat there, but that may be just a coincidence or basically a good "base sketch" that works well.

In either way, the Shafaq is dead, the T-X is not.

A big part of the competition is actually linked ground training systems; and SAAB has a big advantage in that.

 

[Penguin]

First and only supersonic trainer by LM and don't forget it is joint product with KAI not 100% US property

M-346 / T-100 does Mach 1.2

On January 1, 2016, Alenia Aermacchi was absorbed into a new consolidated corporation titled: Leonardo-Finmeccanica. In February 2016, it was announced that Raytheon, who shall serve as the prime contractor, had teamed up with Leonardo-Finmeccanica to offer an advanced variant of the M-346 for the T-X program called the T-100.

All foreign entries are required to bid a consortium with US company as prime contractor.

Could anybody explain to me about similarity of boeing T-X and Shafagh trainer jet!?

What similarity? It having a twin tail? Doesn't the Scorpion have that too? The wing? No, that isn't like Shafagh at all. LERX at quite common. See F/A-18, for example. Or T/TA/FA-50.

Shafagh is based on Russian OKB Muchamedov / Eurasia designs Vityaz 2000 and Integral-2010

 

[Ultima Thule]

Yes, in my dreams, I think that the face and shape of them is similar! It's not difficult to compared between them!

I think your thought is that Iran give Shafagh design to Boeing to compete T-X project

 

[Darkman]

I think your thought is that Iran give Shafagh design to Boeing to compete T-X project

may be!

https://theaviationist.com/tag/shafagh-2/

 

[Ultima Thule]

may be!

https://theaviationist.com/tag/shafagh-2/

Shafagh is dead project

 

[Darkman]

Actually I don't think so like what you said! but I think It's a good point for Iran that works on a practical design.

a lot of dead projects can be alive in some place that we don't know about that!!!! or be a base and first generation of the next generations!!!! future can make clear...

 

[Penguin]

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/09/15/boeing-saab-t-x-trainer-air-force/

 

[VEVAK]

It's a single engine F/A-18 & how much are they going to want for it? I bet it'll be over $15 Million!

Why not just buy the ATG Javelin

You can probably get it for a fraction of the cost! at only $3 Million USD! LOL!

 

[Penguin]

It's a single engine F/A-18 & how much are they going to want for it? I bet it'll be over $15 Million!

Why not just buy the ATG Javelin

You can probably get it for a fraction of the cost! at only $3 Million USD! LOL!

... and the T/TA/FA-50 is a small F-16.

MAINLY you don't get an ATG Javelin is because:

The ATG Javelin was an American small high-speed personal jet that was developed by the Aviation Technology Group (ATG) prior to its bankruptcy. Planned for FAA certification under 14 CFR part 23, the Javelin had a design resembling a fighter aircraft, an unusual concept for civilian jets. The Javelin MK-20 derivative, developed in cooperation between ATG and Israel Aerospace Industries, was expected to fill the jet trainer role for various air forces. The first prototype took flight on 30 September 2005.

ATG halted all further development on the Javelin in December 2007 after failing to get $200 million to finance further development. The company subsequently declared bankruptcy in 2008, ending the development of the Javelin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATG_Javelin

 

[VEVAK]

... and the T/TA/FA-50 is a small F-16.

MAINLY you don't get an ATG Javelin is because:

The ATG Javelin was an American small high-speed personal jet that was developed by the Aviation Technology Group (ATG) prior to its bankruptcy. Planned for FAA certification under 14 CFR part 23, the Javelin had a design resembling a fighter aircraft, an unusual concept for civilian jets. The Javelin MK-20 derivative, developed in cooperation between ATG and Israel Aerospace Industries, was expected to fill the jet trainer role for various air forces. The first prototype took flight on 30 September 2005.

ATG halted all further development on the Javelin in December 2007 after failing to get $200 million to finance further development. The company subsequently declared bankruptcy in 2008, ending the development of the Javelin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATG_Javelin

I already know what the Javelin is and that it got cancelled PLEASE stop copy pasting WIKI

My point Is if it's something Boing put it' hands in then they will want over $15M for an aircraft that's not even worth $5M
and if Russia want's $15 million for it's yak-130 these guy's are going to want more than that!

And the new TX is the child of F/A-18 getting it on with an F-16

 

[Penguin]

I already know what the Javelin is and that it got cancelled PLEASE stop copy pasting WIKI

My point Is if it's something Boing put it' hands in then they will want over $15M for an aircraft that's not even worth $5M
and if Russia want's $15 million for it's yak-130 these guy's are going to want more than that!

View attachment 335651

And the new TX is the child of F/A-18 getting it on with an F-16

I already know what the Javelin is and that it got cancelled PLEASE stop copy pasting WIKI

My point Is if it's something Boing put it' hands in then they will want over $15M for an aircraft that's not even worth $5M
and if Russia want's $15 million for it's yak-130 these guy's are going to want more than that!

View attachment 335651

And the new TX is the child of F/A-18 getting it on with an F-16

Listen bub, I will use wiki (or whatever other internet source I find usefull) whenever convenient. I've already explained elsewhere extensively to you why.

The point here is that you recommend an aircraft from a company that no longer exists and hasn't for 8 years or so. IF Israel Aerospace Industries where interested in continuing with the Javelin, it would have sought a US partner, because that's the only way a non-US firm/product will compete in T-X program.
http://www.iai.co.il/2013/34052-357...ircraft_Lahav_Products_TrainingSolutions.aspx

Where does the amount of 15$million come from (oh, wait, it was you own ... guess. See post #23)?
How would you know Boeing/Saab's T-X contented isn't worth $5Million. Would you care to eleborate how you got to those numbers, what - if any - sources inform your judgement?

T-50: US$21 million (2008) > http://defense-technologynews.blogspot.nl/2008/08/s-korea-to-tout-t-50-trainer-to.html
TA-50: US$25 million (2011) > http://aviationweek.com/awin/indonesia-orders-16-t-50-trainers-korea-aerospace
FA-50: US$30 million (2012) > https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/seoul-places-600m-order-for-20-fa-50s-366500/

M-346: l.t. $40million (2014) > http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/alenia-aermacchi-ministro-difesa-minister-defence
120 million Euros to provide the Italian Air Force with further three advanced trainer aircraft M-346 (identified as T-346A by the Italian Air Force), with ground base training system and relevant logistic support included.
M-346: g.t. $33 million (2016) > http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/m346-italian-air-force-aeronautica-militare-aermacchi
Finmeccanica signed a contract worth over 300 million Euros with ARMAEREO (Italian National Armaments Directorate) of the Italian Defence Ministry for a further nine Aermacchi M-346 advanced training aircraft for the Italian Air Force.

Scorpion : l.t. US$20 million (forecast, December 2013)
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28260781
In September 2015 Textron AirLand revealed it would not offer a version of the Scorpion for the program due to changing Air Force requirements, moving from a low-cost advanced jet trainer requiring little development to a high-performance fly-by-wire trainer with top tier handling qualities.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...ot-be-proposed-for-usaf-t-x-competiti-417108/


For the Boeing/Saab and Northrop entries, it is difficult to arrive a any cost estimate as these are newly developed aircraft without actual prior sales.

 

[VEVAK]

Listen bub, I will use wiki (or whatever other internet source I find usefull) whenever convenient. I've already explained elsewhere extensively to you why.

The point here is that you recommend an aircraft from a company that no longer exists and hasn't for 8 years or so. IF Israel Aerospace Industries where interested in continuing with the Javelin, it would have sought a US partner, because that's the only way a non-US firm/product will compete in T-X program.
http://www.iai.co.il/2013/34052-357...ircraft_Lahav_Products_TrainingSolutions.aspx

Where does the amount of 15$million come from (oh, wait, it was you own ... guess. See post #23)?
How would you know Boeing/Saab's T-X contented isn't worth $5Million. Would you care to eleborate how you got to those numbers, what - if any - sources inform your judgement?

T-50: US$21 million (2008) > http://defense-technologynews.blogspot.nl/2008/08/s-korea-to-tout-t-50-trainer-to.html
TA-50: US$25 million (2011) > http://aviationweek.com/awin/indonesia-orders-16-t-50-trainers-korea-aerospace
FA-50: US$30 million (2012) > https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/seoul-places-600m-order-for-20-fa-50s-366500/

M-346: l.t. $40million (2014) > http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/alenia-aermacchi-ministro-difesa-minister-defence
120 million Euros to provide the Italian Air Force with further three advanced trainer aircraft M-346 (identified as T-346A by the Italian Air Force), with ground base training system and relevant logistic support included.
M-346: g.t. $33 million (2016) > http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/m346-italian-air-force-aeronautica-militare-aermacchi
Finmeccanica signed a contract worth over 300 million Euros with ARMAEREO (Italian National Armaments Directorate) of the Italian Defence Ministry for a further nine Aermacchi M-346 advanced training aircraft for the Italian Air Force.

Scorpion : l.t. US$20 million (forecast, December 2013)
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28260781
In September 2015 Textron AirLand revealed it would not offer a version of the Scorpion for the program due to changing Air Force requirements, moving from a low-cost advanced jet trainer requiring little development to a high-performance fly-by-wire trainer with top tier handling qualities.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...ot-be-proposed-for-usaf-t-x-competiti-417108/


For the Boeing/Saab and Northrop entries, it is difficult to arrive a any cost estimate as these are newly developed aircraft without actual prior sales.


Listen bub, I will use wiki (or whatever other internet source I find usefull) whenever convenient. I've already explained elsewhere extensively to you why.

The point here is that you recommend an aircraft from a company that no longer exists and hasn't for 8 years or so. IF Israel Aerospace Industries where interested in continuing with the Javelin, it would have sought a US partner, because that's the only way a non-US firm/product will compete in T-X program.
http://www.iai.co.il/2013/34052-357...ircraft_Lahav_Products_TrainingSolutions.aspx

Where does the amount of 15$million come from (oh, wait, it was you own ... guess. See post #23)?
How would you know Boeing/Saab's T-X contented isn't worth $5Million. Would you care to eleborate how you got to those numbers, what - if any - sources inform your judgement?

T-50: US$21 million (2008) > http://defense-technologynews.blogspot.nl/2008/08/s-korea-to-tout-t-50-trainer-to.html
TA-50: US$25 million (2011) > http://aviationweek.com/awin/indonesia-orders-16-t-50-trainers-korea-aerospace
FA-50: US$30 million (2012) > https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/seoul-places-600m-order-for-20-fa-50s-366500/

M-346: l.t. $40million (2014) > http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/alenia-aermacchi-ministro-difesa-minister-defence
120 million Euros to provide the Italian Air Force with further three advanced trainer aircraft M-346 (identified as T-346A by the Italian Air Force), with ground base training system and relevant logistic support included.
M-346: g.t. $33 million (2016) > http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/m346-italian-air-force-aeronautica-militare-aermacchi
Finmeccanica signed a contract worth over 300 million Euros with ARMAEREO (Italian National Armaments Directorate) of the Italian Defence Ministry for a further nine Aermacchi M-346 advanced training aircraft for the Italian Air Force.

Scorpion : l.t. US$20 million (forecast, December 2013)
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28260781
In September 2015 Textron AirLand revealed it would not offer a version of the Scorpion for the program due to changing Air Force requirements, moving from a low-cost advanced jet trainer requiring little development to a high-performance fly-by-wire trainer with top tier handling qualities.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...ot-be-proposed-for-usaf-t-x-competiti-417108/


For the Boeing/Saab and Northrop entries, it is difficult to arrive a any cost estimate as these are newly developed aircraft without actual prior sales.

use the link and make you point because no one want read through all that to try to figure out what it is your trying to say! We all have access to the internet and are fully capable of clicking on a link! so make your point and post the link!

 

[Penguin]

Yak 130 trainer: 15 $million (2008) https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/20080719.aspx

Hongdu L15: about 15 $million (2008)
Hongdu L15: about $10 million (2011) > http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...-contract-chinese-l-15-jet-trainer-production
Hongdu L15: about 17 $million (2014) > http://www.janes.com/article/56936/zambia-to-receive-first-hongdu-l-15-trainer

Guizhou JL-9/FTC-2000 : $5-6.4 million (2006) > https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...-guizhou-ftc-2000-and-hongdu-l-15-set-210440/
Guizhou JL-9/FTC-2000 : $8.5 million (2015) > http://china-pla.blogspot.nl/2015/01/chinas-advanced-trainers.html
several million dollars cheaper than its competitor, the twin-engine JL-15 trainer.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/jl-9.htm

BAE Hawk AJT: $36 million (2012) > http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/sa...ews&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=news_feed

L-159 ALCA: 9.5 $ million (2015).> http://www.janes.com/article/55766/iraq-receives-first-l-159-jets-from-the-czech-republic

use the link and make you point because no one want read through all that to try to figure out what it is your trying to say! We all have access to the internet and are fully capable of clicking on a link! so make your point and post the link!

Correction, YOU dont want to read and you don't want to figure out. Don't presume to speak on behalf of all posters in this thread or on this forum.

Rather than a wiki ref, I've given you original source links. This is no good either? Too complicated?

use the link and make you point because no one want read through all that to try to figure out what it is your trying to say! We all have access to the internet and are fully capable of clicking on a link! so make your point and post the link!

The point is that in order to compare prices, you actually have to have some price data.
Scorpion was withdrawn, this leaves 4 candidate aircraft of which 2 have been sold before and 2 are brand new and tailored to the latest program T-X specs. There is not price info on the latter two. What price info I found on the other 2 I have posted. This, together with price indications for other trainers gives some indication of the market.

WHERE DO YOUR 15 and 5 million COME FROM? PLEASE DO GIVE SOME REFERENCE TO SOURCE MATERIALS ON WHICH YOU BASED YOUR 'INFORMED' OPINION.

(or did some Boeing official whisper it in your ear?)

It's a single engine F/A-18 & how much are they going to want for it? I bet it'll be over $15 Million!

Why not just buy the ATG Javelin

You can probably get it for a fraction of the cost! at only $3 Million USD! LOL!

Red > yeah, you knew ATG went out of business, that's why you recoomend to 'just buy' the Javelin...
Blue > where do your amounts come from, what are they based on?

 

[VEVAK]

Yak 130 trainer: 15 $million (2008) https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/20080719.aspx

Hongdu L15: about 15 $million (2008)
Hongdu L15: about $10 million (2011) > http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...-contract-chinese-l-15-jet-trainer-production
Hongdu L15: about 17 $million (2014) > http://www.janes.com/article/56936/zambia-to-receive-first-hongdu-l-15-trainer

Guizhou JL-9/FTC-2000 : $5-6.4 million (2006) > https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...-guizhou-ftc-2000-and-hongdu-l-15-set-210440/
Guizhou JL-9/FTC-2000 : $8.5 million (2015) > http://china-pla.blogspot.nl/2015/01/chinas-advanced-trainers.html
several million dollars cheaper than its competitor, the twin-engine JL-15 trainer.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/jl-9.htm

BAE Hawk AJT: $36 million (2012) > http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/sa...ews&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=news_feed

L-159 ALCA: 9.5 $ million (2015).> http://www.janes.com/article/55766/iraq-receives-first-l-159-jets-from-the-czech-republic


Correction, YOU dont want to read and you don't want to figure out. Don't presume to speak on behalf of all posters in this thread or on this forum.

Rather than a wiki ref, I've given you original source links. This is no good either? Too complicated?


The point is that in order to compare prices, you actually have to have some price data.
Scorpion was withdrawn, this leaves 4 candidate aircraft of which 2 have been sold before and 2 are brand new and tailored to the latest program T-X specs. There is not price info on the latter two. What price info I found on the other 2 I have posted. This, together with price indications for other trainers gives some indication of the market.

WHERE DO YOUR 15 and 5 million COME FROM? PLEASE DO GIVE SOME REFERENCE TO SOURCE MATERIALS ON WHICH YOU BASED YOUR 'INFORMED' OPINION.

(or did some Boeing official whisper it in your ear?)


Red > yeah, you knew ATG went out of business, that's why you recoomend to 'just buy' the Javelin...
Blue > where do your amounts come from, what are they based on?

Javelin was meant to be a civilian aircraft & the only reason it got canned was due to a lack of investment so you can buy a Javelin if you want you just have to invest in it's development and it's yours and it'll cost you less than $5M per aircraft if you do....

I like the $8 M JL-9 over all the rest the price is reasonable specially since it's s supersonic fighter!!!!! At 1/3 of the price I'd take that over the Yak-130 any day!

This is better BTW!!! I don't mind wiki as a source for information that is and has been public!!!!!! but when it comes to Iran's military the info is based solely on Iran's purchases and conjecture.

For example Iran's official Military budget was $17 Billion USD for 2016 that's the cash Iran's government puts in it's budget to give to the military in the beginning of the year which usually increases when required by the end of the year but not by much BUT what is not included is that figure is the money the IRGC's makes on it's own
.
The IRGC is the largest economic force in Iran they own the top cell phone, internet, construction companies, receive multi billion dollar contracts to build, roads, dams, metros, tunnels, etc. etc. and also own 100's of massive multimillion dollar companies in all sector. And the sanctions were a blessing for them because they were the ones smuggling them in and selling at 2-3 times the value.

They have well over $40 billion USD in yearly revenue and pay little to no taxes and at the end of the day they end up with a net income of $12-$15 Billion USD in profit easy probably even more. Now lets say the top 1000 officers & personal are corrupt and take home an average of $2M per year for themselves (Some more some less but an average & $2 million per year in Iran is a lot of loot) that's what $2 Billion USD and let say they set aside another $2 Billion either as reserves or into none military related investments to further their empire! At worse that leaves them with an additional $8-$11 Billion to directly invest in R&D and procurement of new weapons and this is all not including the portion of the money they get from Iran's military budget that money usually goes towards salaries, maintenance of equipment and facilities, etc...

And on paper IRGC's budget is a fraction of Iran's main military yet the IRGC has turned Iran into one of the top 5 largest missiles forces in the world (In terms of quantity) and most of those missiles and the facilities that hold them were bought, built and paid for by the IRGC's. That's why they have all the missiles rather than Iran's main military.

So if on paper Iran spend $17 Billion on it's military in reality that number is closer to $30 Billion.

 

[Norge Stronk]

So if on paper Iran spend $17 Billion on it's military in reality that number is closer to $30 Billion.

Great, but you know this thread is about the USAF's T-X program right? So what's Iran's buying power got to do with the discussion.

I like the $8 M JL-9 over all the rest the price is reasonable specially since it's s supersonic fighter!!!!! At 1/3 of the price I'd take that over the Yak-130 any day!

I'm sure the US is very interested in both and will give them equal time in its T-X competition.

...

Anyway back on topic; the US isn't keen on foreign aircraft so I'd discount the M346 from the start unless a domestic production line is negotiated.

Not sure the US wants to be flying the same aircraft as Russia either. Not for any technical or logistics reasons as they'll negotiate for domestic production, but it causes "visibility" concerns. It just looks bad to be using the same systems as your geopolitical rivals.

NG's M400 is looking nice and they do have an established record of producing trainers for the US with the T-38.

NG's got a full plate at the moment with the B-21 and MQ-25.

The T-50 is great, but again, Lockheed's a little busy at the moment.

Boeing is a major subcontractor on the F-35 program, but its fighter lines are largely empty and it could use a big ticket item (apart from aircraft sales to Iran).

Scorpion has garnered zero interest from the USAF. Not as a trainer or COIN platform (rather they're using a modernized OV-10 Bronco), not as anything. Stick to ground systems Textron.

I've worked with US contractors before and on US contracts, there's a sense of predictability surrounding the awarding of contracts that has to do with keeping people employed. Not saying Boeing is in a good position because there are a lot of quality choices, just that there's a precedent for these types of things happening.

It would be unfair to dismiss his claim outright.

It would be, though I doubt the US has much interest in copying Russian designs.

For what it's worth, I get a BD-10 vibe from the Boeing-SAAB admission