Boeing/SAAB to unveil their T-X design today

[VEVAK]

Great, but you know this thread is about the USAF's T-X program right? So what's Iran's buying power got to do with the discussion.



I'm sure the US is very interested in both and will give them equal time in its T-X competition.

...

Anyway back on topic; the US isn't keen on foreign aircraft so I'd discount the M346 from the start unless a domestic production line is negotiated.

Not sure the US wants to be flying the same aircraft as Russia either. Not for any technical or logistics reasons as they'll negotiate for domestic production, but it causes "visibility" concerns. It just looks bad to be using the same systems as your geopolitical rivals.

NG's M400 is looking nice and they do have an established record of producing trainers for the US with the T-38.

NG's got a full plate at the moment with the B-21 and MQ-25.

The T-50 is great, but again, Lockheed's a little busy at the moment.

Boeing is a major subcontractor on the F-35 program, but its fighter lines are largely empty and it could use a big ticket item (apart from aircraft sales to Iran).

Scorpion has garnered zero interest from the USAF. Not as a trainer or COIN platform (rather they're using a modernized OV-10 Bronco), not as anything. Stick to ground systems Textron.

I've worked with US contractors before and on US contracts, there's a sense of predictability surrounding the awarding of contracts that has to do with keeping people employed. Not saying Boeing is in a good position because there are a lot of quality choices, just that there's a precedent for these types of things happening.



It would be, though I doubt the US has much interest in copying Russian designs.

For what it's worth, I get a BD-10 vibe from the Boeing-SAAB admission

I think the Talon is just fine for an advanced supersonic trainer U.S. has been producing them since the 60's... It's a low maintenance aircraft with 2 small and simple engines it makes no sense to spend the money on the production costs of a new trainer when you can easily have Northrop upgrade it's system to whatever specs you want at a fraction of the price.
This is not for the U.S.! They'll probably try to partner up with countries like Japan or South Korea

I think what the U.S. is missing is a good subsonic fighter jet trainer like the BEA HAWK and if they don't mind spending that much money they should invest in Textron's Scorpion instead....

 

[Norge Stronk]

This is not for the U.S.!

Yes it is. These aircraft are competing in the USAF's T-X tender, which will be the aircraft to replace the T-38:

Look at Boeing's Entry for the USAF’s New Jet Trainer Competition

The Boeing and Saab consortium rolled out its clean-sheet design for the highly prized T-X contract, one that will include orders for hundreds of jets that will serve for decades as replacements for the USAF’s venerable T-38 Talon—and possibly in other roles as well.

I think what the U.S. is missing is a good subsonic fighter jet trainer like the BEA HAWK and if they don't mind spending that much money they should invest in Textron's Scorpion instead....

View attachment 335752

Except the USAF doesn't like the Scorpion... and Textron it withdrew from the T-X tender:

Scorpion will not be proposed for USAF T-X competition

Textron AirLand’s Scorpion in its current form has been ruled out as a competitor for the US Air Force’s T-X next-generation trainer programme to replace the Northrop T-38, according to the joint venture’s president Bill Anderson.

Textron Aviation might submit a redesigned Scorpion or another aircraft altogether, but it's unlikely to be the Scorpion as we know it.

For COIN and CAS, while an option, the Scorpion has been overlooked in favor of the OV-10G+ - a modernized version of an aircraft used in Vietnam!

Scorpion isn't liked by the USAF, so trainer or not, they aren't keen on procuring it.

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I can't yet post links. I've met the post counter requirement, but not the days as a member requirement. The source articles title is bolded, so search for it.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

I think the Talon is just fine for an advanced supersonic trainer U.S. has been producing them since the 60's... It's a low maintenance aircraft with 2 small and simple engines it makes no sense to spend the money on the production costs of a new trainer when you can easily have Northrop upgrade it's system to whatever specs you want at a fraction of the price.
This is not for the U.S.! They'll probably try to partner up with countries like Japan or South Korea

I think what the U.S. is missing is a good subsonic fighter jet trainer like the BEA HAWK and if they don't mind spending that much money they should invest in Textron's Scorpion instead....

View attachment 335752

The last T-38 Talon rolled off the production line in 1972, so the newest airframe will be almost 50 years old,
when the T-X is supposed to enter production. They are falling apart.

Ideally the T-X should be accompanied by cheap simulators which can connect to the real thing using data-link,
allowing pilots to train at much lower cost than actually flying.
Part of SAAB/Boeings offering is the ability to print out spare parts using 3-D printers.
You need to have used modern CAD design for that to happen.

Things have moved on since the 1960s.

 

[Norge Stronk]

I think what the U.S. is missing is a good subsonic fighter jet trainer like the BEA HAWK

Like this one?

The USN uses a variant of the BAE Hawk called the T-45 Goshawk as its carrier capable trainer. They entered service in 2008 and are planned to serve into the 2030s.

 

[VEVAK]

Yes it is. These aircraft are competing in the USAF's T-X tender, which will be the aircraft to replace the T-38:

Look at Boeing's Entry for the USAF’s New Jet Trainer Competition

The Boeing and Saab consortium rolled out its clean-sheet design for the highly prized T-X contract, one that will include orders for hundreds of jets that will serve for decades as replacements for the USAF’s venerable T-38 Talon—and possibly in other roles as well.



Except the USAF doesn't like the Scorpion... and Textron it withdrew from the T-X tender:

Scorpion will not be proposed for USAF T-X competition

Textron AirLand’s Scorpion in its current form has been ruled out as a competitor for the US Air Force’s T-X next-generation trainer programme to replace the Northrop T-38, according to the joint venture’s president Bill Anderson.

Textron Aviation might submit a redesigned Scorpion or another aircraft altogether, but it's unlikely to be the Scorpion as we know it.

For COIN and CAS, while an option, the Scorpion has been overlooked in favor of the OV-10G+ - a modernized version of an aircraft used in Vietnam!

Scorpion isn't liked by the USAF, so trainer or not, they aren't keen on procuring it.

...

I can't yet post links. I've met the post counter requirement, but not the days as a member requirement. The source articles title is bolded, so search for it.

Scorpion is subsonic I suggested a subsonic fighter jet powered trainer for the Air Force! & I know they already have the BEA HAWK


Does the TX program have a unit cost requirement?

A fighter jets airframe is the most expensive part of the aircraft mainly due to material costs and the F-5E & T38 had the lowest titanium requirements of any supersonic fighter why not just convince Northrop to start up T-38 production again? a lot of it's parts are already being produced, you have the simulators, the tools and techs for maintenance!

Like this one?

The USN uses a variant of the BAE Hawk called the T-45 Goshawk as its carrier capable trainer. They entered service in 2008 and are planned to serve into the 2030s.

You would take the BEA Hawk over the Scorpion???? WHY????

 

[Penguin]

Anyway back on topic; the US isn't keen on foreign aircraft so I'd discount the M346 from the start unless a domestic production line is negotiated.

See USN T-45 Goshawk, USAF C27J

Not sure the US wants to be flying the same aircraft as Russia either. Not for any technical or logistics reasons as they'll negotiate for domestic production, but it causes "visibility" concerns. It just looks bad to be using the same systems as your geopolitical rivals.

M-346 is not 'the same' as Yak-130: it is a much modified version of the aircraft developed under the joint venture with the Russians and uses equipment exclusively from Western manufacturers. This includes avionics, the digital flight control system by Teleavio, Marconi Italiana and BAE Systems and the Honeywell F124 turbofan engine in place of the originally intended Povazske Strojarne DV-2S powerplant or the current Progress AI-222-25 turbofan. Anyway, it doesn't seem to bother the Israeli and Singaporean air forces one bit, nor the NATO members Poland and Italy.
NG's M400 is looking nice and they do have an established record of producing trainers for the US with the T-38.

Scorpion was withdrawn after the specs for the T-X fundamentally changed. This change was also instrumental in both Boeing/Saab and Northtrop opting for a clean sheet design. It is this change in specs that puts the South Korean and Italian offerings at a disadvantage as the two new US designs are specifically tailored to the T-X program's revised specs.