BMD tested successfully

[Safriz]

Anyway @Nilgiri I had a sneak peek on your other corner of internet where you call Pakistan as Porkistan and Pakistani as Porki and feel no shame about it and you were looking for certain specs to do your calculations.
Here are a few specs.
Reentry speed of Shaheen-3 is 22226 km h, as stated at IDEAS exhibition by SPD official. Shaheen-3 has apogee of 692 Km as per the NOTAM issued before test.
The diameter of Ababeel warhead assembly is 1.8 meters.
The diameter of Shaheen)3 warhead is 0.76 metres with heat shieling canopy, it must be less without it.

 

[kṣamā]

There are QUOTE="شاھین میزایل, post: 9200888, member: 182150"]It's called base bleed and doesn't need any machinery, just a flat pyrotechnic cartridge at the base. Such an arrangement will randomly increase warhead speed and dodge ABM.

Yes I know of BB shells. But they are used in a completely different scenario. When the artillery shell is fired, a shock wave is formed infront of the shell as the shell pushes through the air. This forms a void at the back of the shell causing a vacume. The BB shell fills this void with some kind of gas/Fluid counteracting the force of vacuum and increasing the range.

Now the shell may be traveling at low supersonic speeds. This makes a very small vacuum area as compared to a warhead (considerably bigger than a 155mm shell) travelling at more than 200% of its speed. The amount of smoke/gas required to fill it and the rate at which it needs to be filled raises serious limitations. Still not considering the size and weight limitations.

Now go ahead and check a profile of a shell and a warhead. you can clearly see that shell has a much more streamlined body with chamfered edges, this design helps keep the vacuum just behind the shell body where it can filled with the BB. But a warhead has a different design philosophy. Its nose is designed to take on most of the blunt. That creates a shock wave traveling away from the warheads body. You can clearly identify the folly of your reasoning. You just don't have the luxury of filling that void without hilariously out-weighing the warhead itself by a smoke bomb.

Moreover even if you get it working, how is it going to save you from an interception? You will physically get out of the way to avoid intercept. The max, if at all anything, BB mechanism on a warhead may increase the terminal Velocity by a fraction. It won't help it in any way to "Doge" the interceptor. It will continue to fly in a balistic arc with or without the BB. Rather with a BB it would be easier to acquire targets for the BMD.

Coming to your Green Pine Radar and Sheeen terminal Velocity. Green pine will detect the launch when the missile is travelling much less than a mach5. This is even b4 the first stage has burnt out. It can predict the path of the projectile depending upon the rate of ascent. Once all the stages have burned out, the RV(s) are drifting in outer space under own speed. Once it reaches apogy, it is nowhere near the speed you posted & it's very well within Green Pine range. By this time all the necessary calculations have taken place and interceptors have been launched. Thereafter all guidance is done but the IR sensor on the missiles..

Plus with electronic beam forming you can concentrate your tracking capabilities on a small region. Also if the track is initiated at lower speeds then it can very well track well beyond the stated speed limits.
Please don't cherrypick numbers to suite your needs.

He thinks u are a renouned pakistani nuclear scientist.....

For them clowns like Ajay Shukla , Shiv Aroor and Rajfortyseven are reliable sources in defence matters. So I can be a Nobel prize winner by comparison

Nobel prize in shattering chest thumping... ha ha... congrat

@Mrc I see you have taken up the task of adding highly relevant facts to this thread. Anyways, I always knew you both won't recognize sarcasm even it smacked you on your face. Let me help you:- That was sarcasm. Bonus Pro Tip:- When someone starts with "With all due respect", then you are going hear something that the listener is going to be insulted by. Hope you learned something.

Yea there is evidence of reduction in warhead size on Pakistani Strategic ballistic missiles. Here it is.

Also do you guys test missiles with actual nuke? Most probably a resounding NO. Those shown above are dummy warheads. What those pics show that you guys have learned how to make smaller pieces of dummy warhead which when fixed together looks like older dummy warheads.

 

[Safriz]

Also do you guys test missiles with actual nuke? Most probably a resounding NO. Those shown above are dummy warheads. What those pics show that you guys have learned how to make smaller pieces of dummy warhead which when fixed together looks like older dummy warheads.

Who in the world ever tests missiles with actual working nukes. Nobody has ever done that.
To this date there has only been one such test which was done by USSR.
Whats the basis of such silly comment? May i know?

 

[kṣamā]

Who in the world ever tests missiles with actual working nukes. Nobody has ever done that.
To this date there has only been one such test which was done by USSR.
Whats the basis of such silly comment? May i know?

You gave me the pics...

Yea there is evidence of reduction in warhead size on Pakistani Strategic ballistic missiles. Here it is.

Now you can go in denial mode?

I forgot to add it before, You stop accelerating when the force of drag exerted by the air is equal to your weight (i.e. the force that the earth's gravity exerts on your mass). At low velocity v, the drag is proportional to v. But as v gets larger, the drag becomes proportional to v squared. Do adding a rocket motor to boost your terminal Velocity is also futile.

 

[IceCold]

Anyway @Nilgiri I had a sneak peek on your other corner of internet where you call Pakistan as Porkistan and Pakistani as Porki and feel no shame about it and you were looking for certain specs to do your calculations.
Here are a few specs.
Reentry speed of Shaheen-3 is 22226 km h, as stated at IDEAS exhibition by SPD official. Shaheen-3 has apogee of 692 Km as per the NOTAM issued before test.
The diameter of Ababeel warhead assembly is 1.8 meters.
The diameter of Shaheen)3 warhead is 0.76 metres with heat shieling canopy, it must be less without it.

Why do insist on feeding the idiot than? He is going to take information from you and twist it as per his liking and post it on some Indian crap forum where nobody else would challenge him and instead hailed because he proved our missiles fake. Lol

 

[Safriz]

I forgot to add it before, You stop accelerating when the force of drag exerted by the air is equal to your weight (i.e. the force that the earth's gravity exerts on your mass). At low velocity v, the drag is proportional to v. But as v gets larger, the drag becomes proportional to v squared. Do adding a rocket motor to boost your terminal Velocity is also futile.

Says the guy who thought missiles are tested with live nukes

anyway the point of having a gas generator or randomly firing pyrotechnic isn't to maintain speed. It is to create dis ambiguity.
AMB works on prediction due to speeds involved.
If the incoming enemy warhead is not found at predicted position , the ABM will miss it and overshoot due to own speed. It cannot turn back and give a chase.
The IR seeker has a narrow field of view and can only make subtle changes.

 

[ssethii]

Here is an accurate comparison of size between Shaheen-3 , Shaheen-1A and Ababeel. I did size comparison of these three missiles as all of them use the same warhead.
You can see that Shahee-3 and Ababeel use exactly the same first and second stages.
But Ababeel also has a third stage above the second stage?
This third stage has no cable runners so it is most probably liquid fueled which are very efficient in space and generate much larger acceleration due to being able to burn for longer, in space i mean.
The extra weight you mention of PBV and three warheads will be compensated by this third stage.
Hope this clears your confusion?

You cannot say it's accurate comparison unless you are sure those pics were taken from same distance and similar angles.

 

[Nilgiri]

The stated reentry speed of Shaheen 3 is 22226 Km /h. @Nilgiri . That's way beyond Greenpine / swordfish tracking capability.

That is about 6.2 km/s. I calculated it to be 5.2 km/s using ballistic approximations using its max range. Where is your source for this re-entry speed?

More importantly what is the source that this is beyond Greenpine tracking capability? Why would there even be a maximum speed possible for tracking? Its a solid state radar. Max tracking range and aperture resolution of the bogie are the only main performance parameters, which will give a certain number of sized targets that can be tracked at every speed (which will illustrate radar performance). Such exact performance will however be confidential.

Anyway @Nilgiri I had a sneak peek on your other corner of internet where you call Pakistan as Porkistan and Pakistani as Porki and feel no shame about it and you were looking for certain specs to do your calculations.
Here are a few specs.
Reentry speed of Shaheen-3 is 22226 km h, as stated at IDEAS exhibition by SPD official. Shaheen-3 has apogee of 692 Km as per the NOTAM issued before test.
The diameter of Ababeel warhead assembly is 1.8 meters.
The diameter of Shaheen)3 warhead is 0.76 metres with heat shieling canopy, it must be less without it.

Never called anyone those words in any other corner of internet. That is quite shameful you are falsifying such.

Anyways I will get to you later about the chemical potential energy unlocked in stage 3 of ababeel (best case scenario) and lets see if its enough for the stated parameters.

 

[Hellfire]

Oh really? @hellfire ?
Your hanooman air force will invisibly come and destroy our highly mobile nukes before they are launched?

Yup ... hanuman air force is the answer. Right mature of you. But then remember Hanuman had nothing to do with Ram, and you might find a Hanuman in your till not few years back BFF - US.

Ever heard of Boost Phase intercept? Oh crap I forgot, you guys think that Pakistan is tens of thousands kilometres away from India. It is nice to quote figures, but when your principle is off ..... I did post a broad hint in my post previously, further details, do not come out till in open source.

Typical Indian wet dreams.

Watch less films with cheesy lines and content, it is unbecoming and unfit a post after a series of appreciable posts by you so far in the thread. But then, it is your wish ......

Your Prithvi sloth is a liquid fueled second world war era toy. It's very slow and can be shot with an air gun.
If your PCV, ABC or whatever you call it , can shoot a Prithvi in boost phase, not even terminal phase then that means nothing.

Carry on with your belief. I like it.

That is about 6.2 km/s. I calculated it to be 5.2 km/s using ballistic approximations using its max range. Where is your source for this re-entry speed?

More importantly what is the source that this is beyond Greenpine tracking capability? Why would there even be a maximum speed possible for tracking? Its a solid state radar. Max tracking range and aperture resolution of the bogie are the only main performance parameters, which will give a certain number of sized targets that can be tracked at every speed (which will illustrate radar performance). Such exact performance will however be confidential.



Never called anyone those words in any other corner of internet. That is quite shameful you are falsifying such.

Anyways I will get to you later about the chemical potential energy unlocked in stage 3 of ababeel (best case scenario) and lets see if its enough for the stated parameters.

When a poster does not understand that Indian BMD capability is in all three points of a flight aka Boost, mid-course and terminal, why are you wasting time? Especially knowing paranoia is a national hobby and pass time.

They love a term 'wet dreams' ... let them enjoy the mechanical stimulation too!!

 

[Nilgiri]

Ever heard of Boost Phase intercept? Oh crap I forgot, you guys think that Pakistan is tens of thousands kilometres away from India. It is nice to quote figures, but when your principle is off ..... I did post a broad hint in my post previously, further details, do not come out till in open source.

There will be a big crush incoming when I find a little time. Stay tuned

When a poster does not understand that Indian BMD capability in in all three points of a flight aka Boost, mid-course and terminal, why are you wasting time? Especially knowing paranoia is a national hobby and pass time.

Its about putting evidence out there for future reference with people that genuinely understand the subject. I still bring up the nuclear warhead - nasr debate in the archives of this forum when I first joined in conversations I have elsewhere.

 

[Hellfire]

There will be a big crush incoming when I find a little time. Stay tuned

I was actually going to tell him that Prithvis being used are the ones which were till not so far long back, the first line of Indian missiles. Now they are relics and the existing stock is being used up and not being replenished. But then .......

They still seem to think that Indian space capability and missile program are sitting separately and have no exchange of information. I really love the ignorance. Till two years back, sanction of BMD was not given because it was not needed due to existing threat perceptions. With changing geo-strategic environment GoI has given a go ahead for national BMD. The depth of Pakistan is such that any CM/BM launch is detected by LRTRs and satellites. We are not worried about Pakistan, but Chinese in Pakistan.

You see, their (Pakistani) missiles will have each MIRV independently 'motoring' away like a mini missile at twice the speed of any Indian missile, so in effect they may have a projected reentry path for New York, but they will be able to shift it to Chennai! Please don't question their science!

Its about putting evidence out there for future reference with people that genuinely understand the subject. I still bring up the nuclear warhead - nasr debate in the archives of this forum when I first joined in conversations I have elsewhere.

That is a noble intent, but that was valid when there were professionals who acted as such on PDF. 2008-10 being the heydays. Then you got a horde of wannabe professionals and ignorants, who would not discuss, but merely get into a rant, not having laid a single eye on a piece of equipment that they have been talking about.

See the professionals here too, you will find them post once or twice and move away. And they will normally refrain from countering where sense is. Where utter non-sense rules, you find wannabes trying the best to post more crap without having their operational principles right.

If fighting a war was all about understanding science, then things would be simplified. We could have ignored terrain, topography, demography, economics and politics. Solely concentrated on mathematical calculations to win a war!!!

Now take the example here itself, 'very highly mobile missile launchers' as if India does not have 24x7 coverage of Pakistani military assets and locations and being complimented by electronic, ELINT, satellite surveillance by US and Israel not to talk about HUMINT
Oh I forgot, HUMINT in PA is non-existential .... there is no US controlled asset around ... and what is more funny, OBL raid did not have their RADARs shut down, it was only sheer good luck of US

Add to it, the depth and distance of the country itself from India ... oh man, we certainly can not have a boost phase intercept capability!!!!

 

[amardeep mishra]

Bi conical design keeps the warheads upright,so yes it is a requirement for MIRV. For MREV it is not as the warheds can be stowed in tilted position and released at oncewith asymmetric thrust pyrotechnics which create some gap between them during and after release.

Hi shaheen!
I am not quite sure what you're referring to here,But let me explain you little bit of Re-entry dynamics based on what I studied.Kindly note,I am not an RV expert--instead I am more into computers and electronics.
First off,There are two aspects of RV that we should be concerned with at the moment and those are-
1) Ballistic Coefficient or Beta given by W/Cd*A--because it is the single most important parameter governing the trajectory and terminal kinetics
2) Stability of RV during flight

#1)
An RV design with higher beta will have higher terminal velocities,hence making it difficult for normal radars to accurately track them.Below are some of the plots from research papers.-

Picture Courtesy:Author John C Adams.
In the above picture one can clearly see that a RV with higher beta will have higher terminal velocity upon impact. In the graphs above a beta=5000lb/ft^2 yields something like 8-9M upon impact. So the design challenge is to reduce Drag coefficient to least possible value along with reference surface area. Modern American RVs have a beta in vicinity of 5000lb/ft^2 or roughly 24000kg/m^2.
Kindly note the initial conditions to solve 4 highly coupled non linear differential eqns were-
(a) Altitude = 250,000 ft or 76.2km
(b) Velocity = 22,500 ft/sec or 6858m/s or close to 20Mach
(c) Flight Path Angle = 12 deg
Kindly note that #b depends on apogee which in turn depends on the velocity at burn-out point! So,obviously in pakistan's or even in india's IRBMs(like Shaheen,Ababeel,Agni-1,2) the velocity with which RV will splash into atmosphere will be much lower than this figure and hence the terminal velocity will be also lower accordingly!

PS-kindly note that a highly blunted nose would yield lower beta and a slightly blunted nose would yield higher beta.

#2
Now coming to the point of stability of RV.

As you'd have studied in your Flight Dynamics classes that an aerial vehicle that has CG aft of CP is inherently unstable because the pitching moment tends to move the body away from equilibrium point. or in more mathematical way,the stability derivative C-em-alpha is positive(C-em-alpha should be negative for stability). As we can see,all the RV designs presented above are unstable(however their degree is different).

In simple conical design we can clearly see that the Cd is least throughout the mach regime,and hence it offers highest possible beta. besides the neutral point of a simple conical RV is also decent which means that RV can be filled with mass almost till the rear without making it unstable. From the graph above,if we fill it past that point then the RV will become unstable!
So,if our RV size is small,then naturally we would want to have a simple conical design because it lets you fill in explosives and Pu till almost itz rear i.e close to 98% of itz length(if we fill it past that length then it will become unstable!),Whereas this figure is reached early in the case of either bic-conic ,tri-conic or modified triconic design!
@The Deterrent and @Nilgiri
The papers I have quoted are not even 8 years old! Besides I did my own simulations 1.5 years back using python and posted the results here in one of the threads!

 

[Nilgiri]

Hi shaheen!
I am not quite sure what you're referring to here,But let me explain you little bit of Re-entry dynamics based on what I studied.Kindly note,I am not an RV expert--instead I am more into computers and electronics.
First off,There are two aspects of RV that we should be concerned with at the moment and those are-
1) Ballistic Coefficient or Beta given by W/Cd*A--because it is the single most important parameter governing the trajectory and terminal kinetics
2) Stability of RV during flight

#1)
An RV design with higher beta will have higher terminal velocities,hence making it difficult for normal radars to accurately track them.Below are some of the plots from research papers.-
View attachment 376924
Picture Courtesy:Author John C Adams.
In the above picture one can clearly see that a RV with higher beta will have higher terminal velocity upon impact. In the graphs above a beta=5000lb/ft^2 yields something like 8-9M upon impact. So the design challenge is to reduce Drag coefficient to least possible value along with reference surface area. Modern American RVs have a beta in vicinity of 5000lb/ft^2 or roughly 24000kg/m^2.
Kindly note the initial conditions to solve 4 highly coupled non linear differential eqns were-
(a) Altitude = 250,000 ft or 76.2km
(b) Velocity = 22,500 ft/sec or 6858m/s or close to 20Mach
(c) Flight Path Angle = 12 deg
Kindly note that #b depends on apogee which in turn depends on the velocity at burn-out point! So,obviously in pakistan's or even in india's IRBMs(like Shaheen,Ababeel,Agni-1,2) the velocity with which RV will splash into atmosphere will be much lower than this figure and hence the terminal velocity will be also lower accordingly!

#2
Now coming to the point of stability of RV.
View attachment 376925
View attachment 376926
As you'd have studied in your Flight Dynamics classes that an aerial vehicle that has CG ahead of CP is inherently unstable because the pitching moment tends to move the body away from equilibrium point. or in more mathematical way,the stability derivative C-em-alpha is positive(C-em-alpha should be negative for stability). As we can see,all the RV designs presented above are unstable(however their degree is different).
View attachment 376945
In simple conical design we can clearly see that the Cd is least,and hence it offers highest possible beta. besides the neutral point of a simple conical RV is also decent which means that RV can be filled with mass almost till the rear without making it unstable. From the graph above,if we fill it past that point then the RV will become unstable!

Heh such graphs were presented earlier in the conversation:

https://defence.pk/threads/bmd-tested-successfully.477281/page-11#post-9196601

Thanks for putting such a detailed explanation.

 

[Akasa]

Slowly but surely, India is piecing together what seems to be a 2-tier missile defense network, but a 3-tier system may not be far away.

The PDV (which I will assume will eventually replace the PAD) seems to be a very close comparator to the THAAD, able to intercept satellites and warheads up to 150 km in altitude (I suspect the actual apogee is higher, but the official figure will do for now). The implications being, of course, that India would have a shield against MRBMs and IRBMs for terminal interception, but most importantly it would be able to intercept SRBMs and TBMs at their midcourse stage, allowing for very high probability of intercept (keep in mind that SRBMs and TBMs rarely have decoys). Satellites, especially those in very low LEO, would fall prey to the PDV as well. For now, until the advent of high-altitude ICBM-specific interceptors (which I will outline below), the PDV will form the first layer of defense for India's BMD network.

The AAD (Ashwin) seems to be an endoatmospheric interceptor, straddling between the S-400 and PDV in terms of ABM capability. I expect that it would eventually complement the S-400 to deal with SRBMs, TBMs, and occasionally IRBMs (i.e. anything that manages to bypass the PDV). This is more or less comparable to the PAC-3 ERINT/MSE but without a KKV.

India has not overtly embarked on a project to develop very-high-altitude midcourse interceptors (i.e. ones similar to the US GBI or the Chinese SC-19 & DN-1/2/3), but I believe existing technologies brought about by its space program would allow it to do so. To intercept ICBMs at their midcourse stage, an ABM must reach altitudes of 1000-2000 km (before the RV separates from their bus). Two rocket boosters are candidates for such a missile: Satellite Launch Vehicle (SLV) and Augmented Satellite Launch Vehicle (ASLV). Their respective masses (17 & 41 tons, respectively) are roughly comparable to the US GBI and the Chinese SC/DN series. Their launch history also demonstrates their ability to place 40-50 kg satellites (roughly the same weight as a kinetic kill vehicle) into high altitudes (800-1000 km). The final piece of the puzzle is the seeker to distinguish the RV & missile from other objects in space; this should not be a problem since the PDV has already demonstrated this.

On a final note, India needs to develop a high-altitude midcourse interceptor similar to the US GBI if it wants a decent chance of intercepting MIRVed ICBMs & IRBMs. On a positive note, almost all of its major subcomponents are in place for DRDO to develop them (granted, with Israeli radars, of course).

 

[Safriz]

Yup ... hanuman air force is the answer. Right mature of you. But then remember Hanuman had nothing to do with Ram, and you might find a Hanuman in your till not few years back BFF - US.

Ever heard of Boost Phase intercept? Oh crap I forgot, you guys think that Pakistan is tens of thousands kilometres away from India. It is nice to quote figures, but when your principle is off ..... I did post a broad hint in my post previously, further details, do not come out till in open source.



Watch less films with cheesy lines and content, it is unbecoming and unfit a post after a series of appreciable posts by you so far in the thread. But then, it is your wish ......



Carry on with your belief. I like it.




When a poster does not understand that Indian BMD capability is in all three points of a flight aka Boost, mid-course and terminal, why are you wasting time? Especially knowing paranoia is a national hobby and pass time.

They love a term 'wet dreams' ... let them enjoy the mechanical stimulation too!!

Oh really? Boost phase intercept?
What magic India is gona use to do that?

That is about 6.2 km/s. I calculated it to be 5.2 km/s using ballistic approximations using its max range. Where is your source for this re-entry speed?

More importantly what is the source that this is beyond Greenpine tracking capability? Why would there even be a maximum speed possible for tracking? Its a solid state radar. Max tracking range and aperture resolution of the bogie are the only main performance parameters, which will give a certain number of sized targets that can be tracked at every speed (which will illustrate radar performance). Such exact performance will however be confidential.



Never called anyone those words in any other corner of internet. That is quite shameful you are falsifying such.

Anyways I will get to you later about the chemical potential energy unlocked in stage 3 of ababeel (best case scenario) and lets see if its enough for the stated parameters.

22226 km/h was stated by SPD official at latest IDEAS defence exhibition in Karachi.
Read a bit more about radars. Every radar has limitations be it mechanical or solid state.
Main limiting factor are wavelength, transmission power and sweep speed.
A radar making 100 sweeps per minute will track faster objects than another making 50 sweeps a minute.
Solid state radars have much higher sweep rates but have a limit and that decides upto what speed moving object a radar can track.....in addition to algorithm and computation limits.
Detection is a different thing. For example I could detect a low flying plane or helicopter on my naval radar but the algorithm or the sweep speed of antenna wasn't designed to track such fast moving object. So the helicopter would just appear as a dotted line on my screen.