Blast in Quetta kills 84 Shias, injures 200

[muse]

The point you make is very important - because even some who will condemn the LeJ will find it troubling to condemn LeT -- and yet they are both proxies -- this inevitably leads to the whole "good talb" and "Bad talb" paradigm - Talib in Afghanistan good but bad in Pakistan? It does not make sense.

Pakistanis will be better served by thinking why the security establishment finds that it needs proxies? After all, if it had better tools with which to pursue it's objectives, that is to say, Means must match Ends, Moral and Ethical Ends, cannot be achieved by Immoral and unethical Means

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The point you make is very important - because even some who will condemn the LeJ will find it troubling to condemn LeT -- and yet they are both proxies -- this inevitably leads to the whole "good talb" and "Bad talb" paradigm - Talib in Afghanistan good but bad in Pakistan? It does not make sense.

organisations like LeT have polluted and pretty much destroyed the Kashmir cause and struggle for self determination. the same organisation has also joined hands with TTP. but LeJ/SSP is unique in a sense that it only and only specializes in killing Shias and have never threatened India.

as far as the good taliban of Afghanistan are concerned, their handy work is well known, they have slaughtered civilians in tens of thousands. shias alone in single massacre amounted to 11 thousand when they raised entire villages to the ground after capturing Nad e Ali and Mazar e sherif .

so I am not one of those who is looking the other way but I despise the covert trolling when some people bring in Kashmir and question creation of Pakistan and its founders when we are talking about a sectarian incident in Quetta that is based on age old animosity the followers of Yazid hold against the followers of Ali and Imam Hussain. well before the creation of India , Pakistan and ISI.


by the way, same question about proxies must be asked from Indians and their answer will be well, we have used them successfully and broke a part of the country, we have a blow back in Sri Lanka and lost one PM in the process but it wasnt as bad as Pakistan where the Afghan war experiment has gone terribly wrong.

use of proxies like Jundullah in Pakistan and Iran by west and middle east will only stop once Persians, West and Arabs call the peace and use of proxies like BLA and LeT will only stop once India and Pakistan accept each other like France , Germany and Britain finally did. expecting only one side to give up on covert ops is unfair and bound to fail just like one sided operations on groups in Karachi.


there are tons of threads where we are in perpetual discussion with Indians on the role of proxies, Jihadists, fascists and extremists and the questions about partition. what I demand from sensible and decent Indians is to not drag our usual bickering in such human tragedies and look beyond your political and national differences I know its much to ask but no harm asking

 

[MilSpec]

organisations like LeT have polluted and pretty much destroyed the Kashmir cause and struggle for self determination. the same organisation has also joined hands with TTP. but LeJ/SSP is unique in a sense that it only and only specializes in killing Shias and have never threatened India.

as far as the good taliban of Afghanistan are concerned, their handy work is well known, they have slaughtered civilians in tens of thousands. shias alone in single massacre amounted to 11 thousand when they raised entire villages to the ground after capturing Nad e Ali and Mazar e sherif .

so I am not one of those who is looking the other way but I despise the covert trolling when some people bring in Kashmir and question creation of Pakistan and its founders when we are talking about a sectarian incident in Quetta that is based on age old animosity the followers of Yazid hold against the followers of Ali and Imam Hussain. well before the creation of India , Pakistan and ISI.


by the way, same question about proxies must be asked from Indians and their answer will be well, we have used them successfully and broke a part of the country, we have a blow back in Sri Lanka and lost one PM in the process but it wasnt as bad as Pakistan where the Afghan war experiment has gone terribly wrong.

use of proxies like Jundullah by in Pakistan and Iran by west and middle east will only stop once Persians, West and Arabs call the peace and use of proxies like BLA and LeT will only stop once India and Pakistan accept each other like France , Germany and Britain finally did. expecting only one side to give up on covert ops is unfair and bound to fail just like one sided operations on groups in Karachi.


there are tons of threads where we are in perpetual discussion with Indians on the role of proxies, Jihadists, fascists and extremists and the questions about partition. what I demand from sensible and decent Indians is to not drag our usual bickering in such human tragedies and look beyond your political and national differences I know its much to ask but no harm asking

Irfan sir,

#devils advocate, what if india decides to let the current scenario continue, Pakistan's internal stability is disintegrating, eventually it's ability to control and support kashmir front organizations will only diminish. More independent incidents will give india the opportunity to isolate pakistan, eventually pakistan's position on kashmir only seems to weaken with negotiating from a weaker stance.
If india keeps the cycles of isolation, negotiations, peace deal initiations and rejection with the ground situation, it will keep getting the upper hand in kashmir.

coming back to quetta, and sectarian violence, why are majority of political parties in pakistan not fielding this as the most important issue in the coming elections

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Irfan sir,

#devils advocate, what if india decides to let the current scenario continue,

its a done deal really. if I was an Indian official I would have called a group of prominent Kashmiri Muslim leaders and said.,

how do you fancy seeing Hazrat Bal being blown up like the shrines in Iraq and Pakistan being blown up by Sunni extremists?
how do you fancy your loved ones being blown up in the Muharram processions like in Iraq and Pakistan? still fancy joining Pakistan? where an organisation with alleged support from security agencies has pretty much nullified your right to exist ? (by the way Sufi, Berlavi Sunnis are second on the hit list of these sunni existimists who are normally known as Deobani or Wahabis)


coming to Indian role, yes in short term it wil serve India well to actually support such carnage in Pakistan which will pretty much remove its appetite for Kashmir cause. but in longer run it can have adverse affects because a Pakistan like Afghansitan can be devastating for India many many fold and can hinder its quest for future main position in Asian region and the world stage. joining hands with Pakistan to quell this religious extremism and also keeping its own hindu extremism in check will work far better in the longer run which all Indian rivals are banking that Indians would never do and will never achieve the potential they can achieve with a friendly Pakistan which can be achieved only if we move away from our stated positions over Kashmir and meet in a middle ground which doesnt affect any party and only brings the kind of prosperity that vindicates everyone but that dream might take a while to realize.

as of now since Pakistan lacks credible leadership and the society is radicalized so India can enjoy the show for some time but not for long because it has almost the same population of Muslims and things can spill over and effects can by 5 times devastating because of Indian size.


for our own sake and mutual survival I would wish that India doesnt play this game too long, you might recall that Musharraf already started a process of peace well before WoT and taliban backlash so it was not done out of compulsion. although once Americans got involved then this cooperation became more compelling .
there is another silent organisation in the shadows that had its tenticles from the middle east to the far east its hizb tahrir which is the same model like Akhwan muslimeen of Egypt, they are very meticulous and patient and have been working on people of power to convert them into Caliphate revival. some retired generals are the converts of HT who wont settle at anything less than the Islamic flag in Dehli thats why they term all our wars and skirmishes as debacles because nothing short of perfect and absolute victory is good enough for them.

 

[KS]

..........but in longer run it can have adverse affects because a Pakistan like Afghansitan can be devastating for India many many fold and can hinder its quest for future main position in Asian region and the world stage.

That is unfortunately very true and we hope it does not get to that.

But that is as much as we Indians can do. Hope that Pakistan can somehow survive this downward spiral and would understand that the low-hanging Kashmir fruit is not so low-hanging after all.

A start would be to convert the LoC into IB each relinquishing the claim on the other part (this may be political suicide in India, letting go of the claim on P-O-K..but there is no other alternative) and then move on to develop a EU like situation..

joining hands with Pakistan to quell this religious extremism and also keeping its own hindu extremism in check will work far better in the longer run .

What do you mean by "joining hands with Pakistan" ?

And hindu extremism is an overblown threat. Two or three alleged perperators were caught and thats it. Everything fell silent from then on and this is considering that those incidents were perperated by these guys in the first place.

 

[muse]

by the way, same question about proxies must be asked from Indians and their answer will be well, we have used them successfully and broke a part of the country, we have a blow back in Sri Lanka and lost one PM in the process but it wasnt as bad as Pakistan where the Afghan war experiment has gone terribly wrong.

use of proxies like Jundullah in Pakistan and Iran by west and middle east will only stop once Persians, West and Arabs call the peace and use of proxies like BLA and LeT will only stop once India and Pakistan accept each other like France , Germany and Britain finally did. expecting only one side to give up on covert ops is unfair and bound to fail just like one sided operations on groups in Karachi.

Yes, I think we can all agree with that, however, I think the larger point is our Proxies have made us the target - It's most interesting - Did ISI lose control? was it deliberate to teach some section of political thought a lesson? Or is that these have been Infiltrated and now provoke?

Whatever the case may be, the issue is that our dogs now hunt us, perhaps we should stop using dogs - Noble, Moral and Ethical ENDS cannot be obtained with Ignoble, immoral and unethical means.

Now if all that these proxies were supposed to do was to deliver some hurt, then perhaps the ISI and their glorious masters, The Pakistan Army may want to do a better job of internal security - however, given how they handle external security, that is not a reassuring thought.

 

[KS]

Victims of terrorism: Australia offers asylum to 2,500 Hazara families – The Express Tribune

Hazara Shias must consider this offer.

 

[notsuperstitious]

@Irfan Baloch - what do you think of pakistan's rather unique decision to use ''own population'' as proxies? Meaning indoctrinating own people who had nothing to do with foreign causes (as against locals taking up arms but materially supported by foreigners) and then using them as cannon fodder?

Does that not do against the very reason of a nation's existance- i.e. providing for its people, instead of using the people for some game??? Sorry for off topic - but this aspect really stands out if you compare the use of proxies in the modern day and time.

Why do you think Pakistan was compelled to do that? Ambition of the ruling class?

 

[indushek]

its a done deal really. if I was an Indian official I would have called a group of prominent Kashmiri Muslim leaders and said.,

how do you fancy seeing Hazrat Bal being blown up like the shrines in Iraq and Pakistan being blown up by Sunni extremists?
how do you fancy your loved ones being blown up in the Muharram processions like in Iraq and Pakistan? still fancy joining Pakistan? where an organisation with alleged support from security agencies has pretty much nullified your right to exist ? (by the way Sufi, Berlavi Sunnis are second on the hit list of these sunni existimists who are normally known as Deobani or Wahabis)


coming to Indian role, yes in short term it wil serve India well to actually support such carnage in Pakistan which will pretty much remove its appetite for Kashmir cause. but in longer run it can have adverse affects because a Pakistan like Afghansitan can be devastating for India many many fold and can hinder its quest for future main position in Asian region and the world stage. joining hands with Pakistan to quell this religious extremism and also keeping its own hindu extremism in check will work far better in the longer run which all Indian rivals are banking that Indians would never do and will never achieve the potential they can achieve with a friendly Pakistan which can be achieved only if we move away from our stated positions over Kashmir and meet in a middle ground which doesnt affect any party and only brings the kind of prosperity that vindicates everyone but that dream might take a while to realize.

as of now since Pakistan lacks credible leadership and the society is radicalized so India can enjoy the show for some time but not for long because it has almost the same population of Muslims and things can spill over and effects can by 5 times devastating because of Indian size.


for our own sake and mutual survival I would wish that India doesnt play this game too long, you might recall that Musharraf already started a process of peace well before WoT and taliban backlash so it was not done out of compulsion. although once Americans got involved then this cooperation became more compelling .
there is another silent organisation in the shadows that had its tenticles from the middle east to the far east its hizb tahrir which is the same model like Akhwan muslimeen of Egypt, they are very meticulous and patient and have been working on people of power to convert them into Caliphate revival. some retired generals are the converts of HT who wont settle at anything less than the Islamic flag in Dehli thats why they term all our wars and skirmishes as debacles because nothing short of perfect and absolute victory is good enough for them.

I fully agree that in long run we will be experiencing the side effects of this phenomena ?? but what is the future roadmap to achieve this. You start something good and u have the border skirmishes!!!

Also i have another thought which many may call classic paranoia but what if India and Pakistan do come to a agreeable settlement and these terror groups don't agree with it?? after all it will be a total loss for their industry?? Can the Pakistani Fauj eliminate them with extreme prejudice??

Also how can one be sure of the fact that Pakistan does want to move forward on this issue when USA gets off their backs when it moves out of Afghanistan?? No offence but i feel getting pincer-ed between Afghan war and internal chaos is what made the Pakistani Fauj to seek some sort of relation with India. Will this change when one front is freed up??

 

[ice_man]

internal security is not job of army, it is responsibility of police department. Pakistan should strengthen its police force make strict laws and give some autonomy to police.

sadly you have more sense than most pakistanis!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

What do you mean by "joining hands with Pakistan" ?

working together: I posted a video in political video section, the revelations in that program answer my question what I mean by working together. the source of funding and support is explained for LeJ & LeT and why some friends are really not friends of Pakistan & India & why their plans are working because we are not best of neighbours.
non state directors: yes we got these overseas directors who are using local Pakistanis who have waged a war against state of Pakistan some of them were only Indian specific but now have turned back on Pakistan because Pak Military stepped on their tail eventually.

And hindu extremism is an overblown threat. Two or three alleged perperators were caught and thats it. Everything fell silent from then on and this is considering that those incidents were perperated by these guys in the first place.

we had the same notion back in the 80s, we dismissed such terror attacks as isolated incidents and were even reluctant to call them sectarian. the wound became a toumour and now its a cancer. stem yours while you can because its only natural that Hindu extremists will copy cat the Muslim extremists or just for the heck of it. reasons can be plenty