Blast in Quetta kills 84 Shias, injures 200

[Irfan Baloch]

Looking at the denial that your PoV came against, I like your way of bringing back the focus and the very pertinent question. Will the Lashkars be now disavowed or are they still "our boys" for the army who created them to ensure their petty political gains within the Pakistani society.

whether Laskher Toyaba will be disowned or owned is debatable, claim vs. counter claim
us disowning them has had some blow back indeed

but please note Luskher Jhangvi is different entity. it has had no role or no interest in militancy in Kashmir, its sole focus is the elimination of Shias. they have only gone to Afghanistan not to fight soviets or Americans but to kill shias. just check out the translations provided by their disclaimers.

just because their organisation name starts with the word Luskher and you guys jump on it. LeJ and Sippah sahabah have become more daring in the recent decade only because of the chaos of the War on terror and now are far more ambitious like TTP and wont settle at killing shias only but would like to turn Pakistan into a Deobandi Caliphate like once Afghanistan was under Mullah Omar. LeJ were never our boys but they are actually far more your boys by destroying our strategic assets like surveillance planes that have no role in war on terror.

we have been never in confrontation with Iran never overtly or covertly, our armies have ties and training programs together.
so raising sectarian terrorists to fight Iran by the army is very far fetched claim with only an amusing value to cause some pointless arguments.

for the nth time, army has devout shia officers at every rank and such policy will be self defeating I dont plan to repeat myself anymore because I see this same argument being recycled over and over again.

army reflects the population so if there has been sympathy for sectarian organisations then it was at individual level not as a matter of policy. apart from Gen hamid gul of ISI who can you name as sympathiser of sectarian organisations? Zia?
big NO.. he used Islam as a tool to prolong his rule and fight Soviets but thats where this relation stopped. he had no plan to turn Pakistan into what it has become. his untimely death/ assassination played havoc otherwise I am positive he would have neutralised them long time ago just look at KSA, they are blamed for funding of Islamic insurgency but they got a clean house. and actually the crown itself is against Al Qaeda.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Ok: Passing on warnings about what are internal ops should be mostly the purvey of internally focused agencies, unless you are saying these were foreign ops in which case the ISI gets involved. So my question is, why is the ISI getting involved in tracking internal ops?

Edited later: Actually Irfan, forget it. I realize this is a minor point at this point- for this thread and does not really take it forward.

roles overlap in some cases. its like federal vs. provincial agencies MI is as the name suggests military specific (domestic/ foreign) IB, FIA domestic civilian and ISI has both military and civilian element


there is an open announcement by the LeJ to replay the carnage on 20 May13 now its the role of the agencies to fail them

 

[Guest01]

whether Laskher Toyaba will be disowned or owned is debatable, claim vs. counter claim
us disowning them has had some blow back indeed

but please note Luskher Jhangvi is different entity. it has had no role or no interest in militancy in Kashmir, its sole focus is the elimination of Shias. they have only gone to Afghanistan not to fight soviets or Americans but to kill shias. just check out the translations provided by their disclaimers.

just because their organisation name starts with the word Luskher and you guys jump on it. LeJ and Sippah sahabah have become more daring in the recent decade only because of the chaos of the War on terror and now are far more ambitious like TTP and wont settle at killing shias only but would like to turn Pakistan into a Deobandi Caliphate like once Afghanistan was under Mullah Omar. LeJ were never our boys but they are actually far more your boys by destroying our strategic assets like surveillance planes that have no role in war on terror.

we have been never in confrontation with Iran never overtly or covertly, our armies have ties and training programs together.
so raising sectarian terrorists to fight Iran by the army is very far fetched claim with only an amusing value to cause some pointless arguments.

for the nth time, army has devout shia officers at every rank and such policy will be self defeating I dont plan to repeat myself anymore because I see this same argument being recycled over and over again.

army reflects the population so if there has been sympathy for sectarian organisations then it was at individual level not as a matter of policy. apart from Gen hamid gul of ISI who can you name as sympathiser of sectarian organisations? Zia?
big NO.. he used Islam as a tool to prolong his rule and fight Soviets but thats where this relation stopped. he had no plan to turn Pakistan into what it has become. his untimely death/ assassination played havoc otherwise I am positive he would have neutralised them long time ago just look at KSA, they are blamed for funding of Islamic insurgency but they got a clean house. and actually the crown itself is against Al Qaeda.

Even with the extremism that is there in the Paksitani society, it is strange that you still see compartments. Terror and extremism feed off any entity that helps propagate it. So the Laskhars are all the same. Does not matter what "Kafir demons" they fight, Shia and Iran or Hindu and India.

Your conviction of the neutrality of your army peters out by even the slightest comparison of their penchant of extra judicial killings of even the most harmless of journalists but their sheer-as you advocated- incompetence of laying a hand on "those that cannot be named". Whole new Pot of Harry this.

....... just look at KSA, they are blamed for funding of Islamic insurgency but they got a clean house. and actually the crown itself is against Al Qaeda.

No shyt. Trash always goes to the garage, else it will make the house look bad. Will it not?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

What in our view makes the Maulana a Bigot? Just because he saw through the greed that Jinnah represented?

because the Mullah lost his vision and failed to foresee what your fanatic hindu organisations will do to Muslims of Gujrat and what a fanatic serving Army officer will do to Pakistani passengers of Samjhiota express. he also failed to see how a mother and son (of Gandhi family) will pay for their crimes against the minorities and their involvement in instigating insurgencies. the list goes on and I am not really interested

I hit a raw nerve put please dont stray off topic unless if you want to test the patience of the moderators.

 

[jackyy]

because the Mullah lost his vision and failed to foresee what your fanatic hindu organisations will do to Muslims of Gujrat and what a fanatic serving Army officer will do to Pakistani passengers of Samjhiota express. he also failed to see how a mother and son (of Gandhi family) will pay for their crimes against the minorities and their involvement in instigating insurgencies. the list goes on and I am not really interested

I hit a raw nerve put please dont stray off topic unless if you want to test the patience of the moderators.

You are part of an propaganda which congress have been using.No doubt if our people or muslims can get brainwashed then where you stand?No doubt we have radical hindus but the limit to they work is almost negligible.Same can be said about sikhs.
Congress uses this trick to get minority votes.

Only mother failed and if you are using these topics then i can go to benazir n bla bla.
This issues are local issues not related to the existence of country.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

because the Mullah lost his vision and failed to foresee what your fanatic hindu organisations will do to Muslims of Gujrat and what a fanatic serving Army officer will do to Pakistani passengers of Samjhiota express. he also failed to see how a mother and son (of Gandhi family) will pay for their crimes against the minorities and their involvement in instigating insurgencies. the list goes on and I am not really interested

I hit a raw nerve put please dont stray off topic unless if you want to test the patience of the moderators.

None of this makes him a bigot; at worst he can be accused of not seeing the future clearly but even that is too high a benchmark. Who could see the future 40 years hence?

Anyway on topic, you also said:

whether Laskher Toyaba will be disowned or owned is debatable, claim vs. counter claim
us disowning them has had some blow back indeed

I agree. Based based on what I've read the LeT is already too big, not exactly a state within a state, but a huge organization with a politico-economic wing, it's own teaching institutions, funding, bureaucracy. Too large to be taken down without incredible backlash.

 

[Hyperion]

Mate, two completely different entities. I was drawing a parallel, and asking general PoV from a fellow citizen and an officer. Lej is not Let, in-fact the two may even hate each others guts. I'd request of you that, for the moment let's stick with Lej.

There are voices claiming that Laskhars were a necessity for the Army as it was to do with external security threats = Shia Demons in Iran and Hindu Demons in India and of course the Monkey trap that Kashmir is.

So who turn out to be the real demos in hindsight?

Looking at the denial that your PoV came against, I like your way of bringing back the focus and the very pertinent question. Will the Lashkars be now disavowed or are they still "our boys" for the army who created them to ensure their petty political gains within the Pakistani society.

 

[Guest01]

Mate, two completely different entities. I was drawing a parallel, and asking general PoV from a fellow citizen and an officer. Lej is not Let, in-fact the two may even hate each others guts. I'd request of you that, for the moment let's stick with Lej.

Not a problem bro. Let us hear about the Lashkar whose genesis was for the Iranian Demons. Afterall who would love so many innocent pakistani shias dying!!

 

[jackyy]

One thing is certain here.Foreign powers have smelled blood here or in simple words "Weakness"

 

[Hyperion]

We shall handle all in appropriate threads. No one is running away from a debate!

Not a problem bro. Let us hear about the Lashkar whose genesis was for the Iranian Demons. Afterall who would love so many innocent pakistani shias dying!!

 

[muse]

I may be wrong but that I think Guest01 is getting at is the question of the use of proxies - am I anywhere close? Why include Abdul Kalam? pointless.

 

[KS]

KS, I agree with you, India has certainly done a good job in controlling its border, but come on, you don't want to give any credit to Musharraf?

Musharraf did capitulate under the pressure of US - who wanted Pakistan's undivided attention on the western frontier - and closed some terror camps in ***. I'll not deny that.

 

[qaisar52]

Actually i would like to say thank you all for discussion of the serious meter. I my opinion, We all need to open heart and mind and also understanding, tolerance to each other. I will give a example here.
" One day one non Muslim came to Madinah and ask for Prophet Hazrat Mohammed (PBH). People said that prophet past away. He asked i have question if you answer i will become muslim. if not i feel that your prophet NazBillAllah was not right and you always says In Quran No lies. It will be wrong also. The non Muslim said my Question is" What we can see But God Can not See" The Muslim start beating the man and saying that GOD knows every thing, he can see every thing you have to be killed. On that Time One Man came in the Mosque and ask what is the meter, why you are beating a man in Mosque. They said all above. The man Move to the non Muslim, Said Loudly and Clair, On Man of GOD listen, "God never see Dreams which we see as God never sleep" and yes In Quran every thing said is right, there is no Lying in it and Mohammed is True Prophet of God and Leader of All Prophets. This man was Hazrat Ali (As).
This shows us that if we should have knowledge and tolerance towards each other. very simple.

 

[Leader]

Imran Khan and you dont need to clarify any more, your party has lead the way to openly condemn the terrorism against the minorities. it was Imran who openly condemned the murder of Soleman Taseer when even Taseer's best friend and president of Pakistan sank in his seat and I didnt see anything from him in the press or media.

army shares the biggest blame of current domestic extremism and religious violence but also our own mindset and miserable justifications we make. our conscience & morality is so much suppressed that we always question the faith of the protestor or mourner if he is seen mourning for a minority. what I mean is that some of us will be thinking that you are shia just like muse and I are also called shia , ahmedi or liberal fascists, its not just this forum but our common mentality.

me and a cousin of mine where denouncing the crimes against the Ahemdis while walking on the road my cousin is a Barrister and we saw people suddenly stopping abruptly and listening to what we were saying. they must have thought we were Ahmedis. in an other instance I was a guy decided that I was in "Rangers" because I was condemning Red Mosque brothers for initiating the operation when few days earlier their students shot dead a Ranger without provocation.

point is .. we have somehow decided that we will only talk for our faith , our race, our ethnicity, our religion and will show a very
cold and insensitive side to the suffering of other human beings. now thats something I cant blame my army for. neither RAW, nor MOSAD or CIA or Saudis or Iranians.

Paying the price now, when we ignored the slogans and wall chalking in 90s that said "shia kafir shia kafir...", We didnt take it as seriously...but that was effecting minds of the lower middle class and even middle class, now they are cooked up that way, as you described,every group has taken hard positions, they think that if they showed a little bit of flexibility, their faith and ticket to Jannat would be at stake...this is all work of Mullahism...

this is what is coming our way.... http://www.defence.pk/forums/social-issues-current-events/235791-militancy-radicalism-punjab.html

the policy continues.....

 

[Guest01]

I may be wrong but that I think Guest01 is getting at is the question of the use of proxies - am I anywhere close? Why include Abdul Kalam? pointless.

Eggxactly Sir.

Proxy terrorist organizations who are handled with kid gloves (not any more a choice but more an ugly compulsion I suspect). Clearly it ebbs the pain if the hopelessness is in any way (right or wrong) compared to India. What gets missed in this "patriotism" though is that the rubbish swept under the carpet is not going away and only will get stinkier the longer it is not cleaned. And what could be better than any comparison with India to cheer things up?