What's new

Blacks Climing Indus Valley Civilization

Status
Not open for further replies.
Few days back i was watching Professor Rafiq Akhter religious thoughts on that subject.....According to him...Allah has bestowed his blessings to everyone in this Universe. Each Society have concept of single God to be worship,this creed get distorted with passage of time and that resulted in their ultimate destruction....So according to him its not worth to take pride in a ruins where Allah has shown his rage of destruction.....then later on he explains why we always find Statue of Gods while digging?? it gives us the wrong conclusion that each society in primitive world worship Stone crafted GODS???....as a muslim that's wrong belief in itself bcoz we believe in series of Prophets send to each society in different part of the world....Point is man is prone to make same mistake over & over again which forces Divine forces to set example to rest of the world....Sumarian/Egyptian/IVC are those that are now open to the world buried in deep soil with full evidences...one thing that is common among them are that they're all IDOL WORSHIPERS
.
Pakistan "A Glance on Future" Part-1 - Video Dailymotion
.
watch after 9:00 or 11:00....its interesting where he describe "WhyBuddha devise strategy of NIRVANA in the society of BURAHMANS"?...who already worship millions of demi-gods
.
Prof Rafiq Akhtar Personal website.
Prof.Ahmad Rafique Akhtar Official Website
First of all we are talking of period 2500 B.C. to 1500 B.C. here. At that time there are only three civilizations in the world at that time. Sumerian, Egyptian and Indus Valley. Not all human settlements qualify for the status civilization. Please read on primary and secondary attributes of a civilization in historical/ archaeological context. Please limit your discussion to the period we are referring to. As to Hindu scriptures of which Rigveda is the oldest, none of them are dated as far as IVC. Rigveda appeared in around 500 B.C. Some 1000 years after decline of IVC. There is neither an old surviving script of Rigveda nor it is a scientific reference. Rigveda is composed of narratives of Rishis (persons who heard and forwarded the narrative) as is believed by followers of Hindu faith. As a scripture of faith to some, it is fine to believe in it. Each individual is free to believe and practice its religion. However presenting a scripture as a scientific evidence can not be accepted. For that you need hard science like archeology, genetics, geographical history and linguistic science. Please keep in mind that River Indus has never been in history a sacred river nor the area which is Indus basin remained with area east of it as one unit. In the last 5000 years, it has been only 300 years when area which now is Pakistan remained United with what now is India under an indigenous ruling dynasty. That is Maurian empire. Parts of India and Pakistan have been for some duration but neither for long and nor for entirety.

It is pertinent to note that Hindu faith had never claimed it's roots in Indus basin till 1920s when first IVC site was discovered by British. There is good strong evidence of that. No ancient temples in Pakistan. No sacred rituals associated with this area and no evidence of ancient Hindu history here. It was, until 1920s believed that Ganges basin and area south of its western half was birthplace of Hindu faith. Himalayas in the north mostly associated with meditation practices of Hindu mythology. It was also believed that Hindu faith is the oldest in the region and everyone was happy with this fact. No mention of Indus or this area. British were happy too as they found European (aryan) connection. Shock came after Railway engineers found Harrappa ruins and immediately the effort to somehow connect it to Hindu faith started. Just by any means possible. Some people just could not swallow that there existed a great civilization before Hindu faith. So please, I request you to take the history as it is and do not feel ashamed of what you have or where your roots are.
I really enjoyed your Observation...thanks

The energies which Indians spent to somehow attach themselves with IVC (while only minority have genuine linkage), Had they spent 1/2 of energy in digging south they would have found their forefathers.
hahaha....you're right but i want Indians to hinge around us all the time...consider 1.2 Billion people who just blindly following mantra of IVC association in itself appear radiculous......so if are eager to fall in our lap (Tourism perspective) then let them feed their misguided thoughts indirectly....If Gov ask me to devise a tourism policy....I first make them beleive "We hold the Magic-Wand" ...then .."I instruct them dance according to our tunes"
 
Last edited:
Valley is in the context of basin of Ganges but you are right. Initial stages of Hindu history does not meet all attributes of civilization and does not qualify to be called a civilization till about Mauryan time.



Chinese civilization (yellow river civilization) appeared later but was contemporary to IVC from 2000 B.C. onwards. First civilization was Sumerian Iraq (3500 B.C.) second Egypt (3000-2500 B.C.) Third Indus (2500 B.C.). Indus Valley Civilization was in contact with Sumerian and Egyptian civilizations as it traded with them through ships. IVC people are mentioned in Sumerian records and are called 'Meluhas' (some historians think it as 'Mallahs' or ship sailors). Sumerian records tell them of people who bring exotic goods to Sumerian (Iraq). Indus valley people traded with Middle East and their trading posts have been discovered in Oman, Bahrain and Indus artifacts and seals have been found in Iraq.



Sumerian civilization is the oldest and is called cradle of human civilization. It thrived between Euphrates and Tigris rivers. Second oldest is Egyptian and then is Indus valley basin (not India by any stretch of imagination).

On sumerian : Bhai do u even know Underwater city found in cost of Gujarat’s "Dwaraka - city of Lord krishna" it's elf 12000-24000 BC year old?

Do you know South indian cities and our civilization cities are far more older than Indus Valley civilization?

Think about it there was a time when almost all western continents and Eastern continents were covered with ice and Indian subcontinent long with sunken landmass of Indian subcontinent flourished with tropical climate!!!
It's matter of fact the human origin began from India. Whether you like India or not. It's the fact. Even indian street dogs been traced to Egypt and Australia. Lots of studies recently proved it.

You can hide or twist the history you can narrat. But is really sad that you or anyone can't change it!!! Truth will come out. We human being are very curious about everything.
 
I guess the question is settled on who hold the legacy of IVC. You can check with research papers of top research institutes and University.

One doesn't need research, only common sense is required. Pushtuns, Baloch, Most of the Sindhis and Punjabis exist in Pakistan and Indus River and the ancient sites are located in Pakistan. Facts on the ground matter !!!
 
Which can also mean , Rig veda precedes IVC . It can also mean Rig Veda was written on the east of Indus , near saraswati .
It talks about Saraswati river , and its clear through geology and scientific research that , the river got extinct by 1900 BCE

Rigveda is not a scientific evidence and is widely believed to have been dated 500 BC. For simple reason that Indian script did not exist before that, it can not predate IVC which has an older script.

Dating of sand grains from dry bed of Saraswati was carried out in 2014 and compared to Yamuna river. Results indicate that Yamuna river stopped feeding it some 10,000 years ago this making it a seasonal river before IVC. Saraswati does not originate from high glacial mountains hence can not maintain year round flow. Only way to maintain year round flow is being fed from Yamuna river which changed course some 10,000 years ago making Saraswati seasonal during monsoon only. IVC settlements are found along Saraswati but no major city as big as Harrappa or Mohen Jo Daro. Big cities need year round flow to sustain.

Rig Veda and Avestan of Iranians have similarities . Its already clear that Iranians were ruling Indus areas for a long time

Persian civilization had not appeared at the time of IVC. Persian civilization is contemporary to Greek civilization much later.

Rig Veda talks about battle of 10 kings . If there are kings with big armies then there must be big enough empires to support them . Only 2 possible areas can have these empires : Persia ( Including all parts of IVC ) and Egypt .
And only logical answer could be the 1st one .

Without disrespecting a religious scripture, I have to say that ancient stories (which may well be untrue) get exaggerated over time especially when you attach religion to them. One can believe them in religious sense but they hold no weight in scientific context unless proven with hard evidence. There is no evidence of great armies at the time of IVC which was as the evidence suggests very peaceful civilization. They were more into trade, economy and welfare of citizens than warfare and religion. Very few weapons have been found at IVC sites and illustrations on IVC artifacts do not show any scenes of war or conflict. There is no violence, weaponry or religious rituals on IVC artifacts in sharp contrast to Hindu religious artifacts of early era.

But its widely accepted that advent of Iron age resulted in clearance of Forests .
Many Egyptians concepts and Gods have similarities with Hindu Gods , lets not go there :lol:

Again science asks for proof. If anyone was in iron age then iron tools would be found dated to that period. Just like iron told were found at Mehr Garh site belonging to late Mehr Garh period but at the same site early periods only give you bronze tools. Evidence not our nationalism or religious bias is the way to deal with subject.

Modern India and Pakistan are a mixture a races , Cultures , Languages and Religions .
We are so mixed up that , It will be foolish of both of us to have claim on IVC .

None of us hold pure genes of IVC people :tup:

Obviously humans mix up. Evidence suggests that purest of IVC genes maybe with people of interior Sindh and central Punjab all along river Indus and its feeding rivers. Just three days back IVC site has been discovered at Dera Ismael Khan in KPK.

You can hide or twist the history you can narrat. But is really sad that you or anyone can't change it!!! Truth will come out. We human being are very curious about everything.

For truth please refer to works of universities and not biased websites and newspapers. History is just as is. And at the moment it tells us that human race spread out from Africa. It also tells us that when IVC was at its peak, India as it stands today was thickly forested and did not even had a script. None of the Vedas were there (how could they as written script was yet to be developed).

As far your claim of 20,000 years old cities under water cities, Indians the oldest civilization and origin of human race, I really can not answer to such claims. Nobody can. It is likely religious beliefs. Science has no space in it. By the way there is no such scientific evidence as you claimed. Coastline extended not receded and hence cities would not go under sea they would rather move away from coastline. IVC coastal towns and trading posts in Balochistan are much further away inland now. Please do not make outrageous claims.

Please learn to differentiate between a settlement, a town, a city state and a civilization. People who erected stone henge in England do not qualify as civilization. Earliest human city found outside Africa is Mehr Garh, Pakistan. For anything of this skill and complexity anywhere else, you need experts to let work there and use scientific techniques to ascertain anything. A masala news is for those who aren't open to truth.
 
Rigveda is not a scientific evidence and is widely believed to have been dated 500 BC. For simple reason that Indian script did not exist before that, it can not predate IVC which has an older script.

Dating of sand grains from dry bed of Saraswati was carried out in 2014 and compared to Yamuna river. Results indicate that Yamuna river stopped feeding it some 10,000 years ago this making it a seasonal river before IVC. Saraswati does not originate from high glacial mountains hence can not maintain year round flow. Only way to maintain year round flow is being fed from Yamuna river which changed course some 10,000 years ago making Saraswati seasonal during monsoon only. IVC settlements are found along Saraswati but no major city as big as Harrappa or Mohen Jo Daro. Big cities need year round flow to sustain.



Persian civilization had not appeared at the time of IVC. Persian civilization is contemporary to Greek civilization much later.



Without disrespecting a religious scripture, I have to say that ancient stories (which may well be untrue) get exaggerated over time especially when you attach religion to them. One can believe them in religious sense but they hold no weight in scientific context unless proven with hard evidence. There is no evidence of great armies at the time of IVC which was as the evidence suggests very peaceful civilization. They were more into trade, economy and welfare of citizens than warfare and religion. Very few weapons have been found at IVC sites and illustrations on IVC artifacts do not show any scenes of war or conflict. There is no violence, weaponry or religious rituals on IVC artifacts in sharp contrast to Hindu religious artifacts of early era.



Again science asks for proof. If anyone was in iron age then iron tools would be found dated to that period. Just like iron told were found at Mehr Garh site belonging to late Mehr Garh period but at the same site early periods only give you bronze tools. Evidence not our nationalism or religious bias is the way to deal with subject.



Obviously humans mix up. Evidence suggests that purest of IVC genes maybe with people of interior Sindh and central Punjab all along river Indus and its feeding rivers. Just three days back IVC site has been discovered at Dera Ismael Khan in KPK.



For truth please refer to works of universities and not biased websites and newspapers. History is just as is. And at the moment it tells us that human race spread out from Africa. It also tells us that when IVC was at its peak, India as it stands today was thickly forested and did not even had a script. None of the Vedas were there (how could they as written script was yet to be developed).

As far your claim of 20,000 years old cities under water cities, Indians the oldest civilization and origin of human race, I really can not answer to such claims. Nobody can. It is likely religious beliefs. Science has no space in it. By the way there is no such scientific evidence as you claimed. Coastline extended not receded and hence cities would not go under sea they would rather move away from coastline. IVC coastal towns and trading posts in Balochistan are much further away inland now. Please do not make outrageous claims.

Please learn to differentiate between a settlement, a town, a city state and a civilization. People who erected stone henge in England do not qualify as civilization. Earliest human city found outside Africa is Mehr Garh, Pakistan. For anything of this skill and complexity anywhere else, you need experts to let work there and use scientific techniques to ascertain anything. A masala news is for those who aren't open to truth.


:o::o::o:
Widely accepted Dates of Rig Veda are 1700 to 1500 BCE and not 500 BCE:lol::lol::lol:
Nup ! Persian Civilization or in other words Old Persia but with a different name was present at that time:agree:
History of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Greater Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Modern Iran and Modern India are smaller in size compared to the Ancient Iran and Ancient India .
Indo-Iranians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Akkadian Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sintashta culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Andronovo culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Iron age in south Asia was slated at 1200 BCE
But new evidence shows use of Iron much before

Discovery of Ancient Indian Daggers may push back Start of Iron Age by Hundreds of Years | Ancient Origins

Vedas were oral tradition . When script appeared for the first time in South Asia . It got written down in Vedic sanskrit which is similar to Avestan . In other words Vedas or Vedic hymns existed before they were composed by Ved Vyasa . Hymns in Veda are hymns by several Sages .

It is too early to speculate about IVC .

Language is yet to be deciphered . Many sites are yet to be studied . Based on rudimentary evidence we are only fooling ourselves . If Aryan Invasion is true then , The original people of IVC moved eastward into India . If Aryan invasion or migration is proved wrong , then Rig Veda belongs to the people of IVC a.k.a Modern Indians and Pakistanis :D
 
Last edited:
Hinduism back then was called Sanatana dharma.
Btw they used Shiv-Ling like Hindus do.
Ofcourse there are other similarities too, like the style of worshipping, use of fire altars etc.


And how would you explain the use of Brahui language in Pakistan???
they used Dravidian languages tlbut they were not Dravidians.

they were only culturally and linguistically Dravidians but they were mixture of different races

Alexander the Great was born in Macedonia and was culturally Greek. The Greece has blocked Macedonia entering UN and EU with Macedonian flag with Alexander's shield. Both countries constantly fight over Alexander. Greece do claim SOLE ownership of Alexander and his accomplishments !
that one is a Slavic nation.
macedonia greek - Google Search
 
However a Bengali, a Marata, a Tamil, a Orrisan, a Telagu, a Assamese have absolutely no right as they have no connect to this land now or in the past unless of course they happen to be migrants from here which might be applicable to atiny number. I recently met a chap from Hyderabad in India and he told me his father was from Lahore and in 1947 he never went back because he had a good job. However you know these are exceptions. 100 of millions or the vast number of Indians are intrinsic to Ganges India or South India and have had no knowledge of or connection to Indus other than recent historical revisionism.
Here -
Ancient Indus Valley Civilization Book List

They study the ISVC. They are called Indologists. There is only one Pakistani. He is also an Indologist. :)

Manas: History and Politics, Indus Valley

Indus Valley civilization - Oxford Reference

I can give you link after link.

Indian history. Unanimous. Pure and simple. :agree:

So. How does it feel to be stripped of all cultural heritage and made an orphan of history?

There is no violence, weaponry or religious rituals on IVC artifacts in sharp contrast to Hindu religious artifacts of early era.
Oh really! Cite some Pakistani papers in this area of research please. Recent ones. We have hundreds in India.
 
:o::o::o:
Widely accepted Dates of Rig Veda are 1700 to 1500 BCE and not 500 BCE:lol::lol::lol:
Nup ! Persian Civilization or in other words Old Persia but with a different name was present at that time:agree:
History of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Greater Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Modern Iran and Modern India are smaller in size compared to the Ancient Iran and Ancient India .
Indo-Iranians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Akkadian Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sintashta culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Andronovo culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Iron age in south Asia was slated at 1200 BCE
But new evidence shows use of Iron much before

Discovery of Ancient Indian Daggers may push back Start of Iron Age by Hundreds of Years | Ancient Origins

Vedas were oral tradition . When script appeared for the first time in South Asia . It got written down in Vedic sanskrit which is similar to Avestan . In other words Vedas or Vedic hymns existed before they were composed by Ved Vyasa . Hymns in Veda are hymns by several Sages .

It is too early to speculate about IVC .

Language is yet to be deciphered . Many sites are yet to be studied . Based on rudimentary evidence we are only fooling ourselves . If Aryan Invasion is true then , The original people of IVC moved eastward into India . If Aryan invasion or migration is proved wrong , then Rig Veda belongs to the people of IVC a.k.a Modern Indians and Pakistanis :D

You are mixing religion with history. It is a very bad mixture. Rigveda has no scientific or historical significance. Religious stories can not be the basis of science.

So. How does it feel to be stripped of all cultural heritage and made an orphan of history?

Lol.... With archeological sites all over Pakistan, someone else is at risk of being an orphan. Stop divorcing Ganges and embrace your history. Why is it shameful for you people? I really don't get it.
 
Yup !:tup:

Only in the case of Misinterpretation .
Rig Veda has a historical significance . Separate the cultural practices of Egypt from its civilization , U will get only hollow artifacts .

Historical Vedic religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To establish existence of Rigveda one has to produce written script of Rigveda carbon dated to 1500 BC. As I understand earliest surviving copy of it dates back no further than 14 or 15th century (recalling from memory). There is no established identity of Rishis (the narrators) nor any archeological evidence of events mentioned therein. I am walking a fine line here and do not want to hurt your religious beliefs. Let me point you to a simple fact. British institutionalised ancient history of India in 1870s with almost all native scholars scholars Hindus. Numerous work was written and recorded. How on earth there is no mention of IVC till 1920s when Harrappa was excavated? And thereafter references to IVC are suddenly found everywhere in Vedas?! What does it tell you? What is going on here?

Step out of Pakistan and look for Pakistani ISVC section in the Libraries. :D

In that case Greek civilization is definitely Pakistani. We have books on them in our libraries and evidence to prove that Greeks were here!
 
To establish existence of Rigveda one has to produce written script of Rigveda carbon dated to 1500 BC. As I understand earliest surviving copy of it dates back no further than 14 or 15th century (recalling from memory). There is no established identity of Rishis (the narrators) nor any archeological evidence of events mentioned therein. I am walking a fine line here and do not want to hurt your religious beliefs. Let me point you to a simple fact. British institutionalised ancient history of India in 1870s with almost all native scholars scholars Hindus. Numerous work was written and recorded. How on earth there is no mention of IVC till 1920s when Harrappa was excavated? And thereafter references to IVC are suddenly found everywhere in Vedas?! What does it tell you? What is going on here?
:o::o::o: The dates of Rig Veda are arbitrary . It was based on Christian views that World came to existence in 4004 BC:lol:and Deluge happened around 2000 BC :lol: So they can't put Rig Veda dates before deluge .
This happened before IVC got discovered .

British believed , No humans lived prior to 3 BC in Indian Subcontinent .
But they were bulldozed , when Ashoka , Alexander , Mahajanpadas and others were found .
Mahajanapada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then we had Germans who believed , they were Aryans and they were the ones who gave Vedic literature to Indians :lol:

Do U want to listen more about these stupid Europeans who are immersed in a superiority complex of its own Kind .
 
Why all of sudden Indian's stomach aching for the claim of Indus civilization. This civilization belongs to people of Indus and that definitely not current day India. In Pakistan should have a claim on the name India not Bharatis
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom