BJP opposes Muslim reservation in jobs: Joshi

[LaBong]

Rather than playing with reservation, Govt. should free education till Post-Graduate.

Post-graduate will take 25 years at least, who gonna provide roti-kapda-makan all those years?

 

[deep.ocean]

I'm not sure how reservation helps but Muslims in West Bengal need to be uplifted. But reservation is just a political move, it won't change anything in reality. WB should take Kerala as a model.

This should not be taken lightly.. Instead of eliminating evil they have started nurturing it.. If it will not be opposed then other states will start doing the same..

 

[deep.ocean]

Post-graduate will take 25 years at least, who gonna provide roti-kapda-makan all those years?

So how will resevation provide them these Basic needs?

 

[KS]

Bulk of the Muslims in India are converts from lower caste, and need to be uplifted just as lower spectrum of Hindus.

Although I have personal reservation against reservation.

Agreed --- but isn't one of the reasons for their conversion is to get off the caste system in Hinduism.

My take on this issue - Political move to win the Muslim votes in the upcoming elections.

What needs to be done -

• if you are genuinely concerned about Muslims and their low representation encourage them to take up scientific education at the earliest.
• Ask them to get rid of their inflexible attitude regarding religion.
• As a further incentive give them few percent reservation in educational institutions till under-graduate to facilitate their education

No job-reservation directly till the above things are done.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

ohhhh.....you are far from truth
do you know low caste women wer not even allowed to cover their upper body. can it be more intense than that.
i dont think u would understand.
it was due to the right measures taken by the goverment and the change in mentality of people mainly due to the education which brought about the change.
well i'm leaving this discussion now since i've put forward all my possibe suggestions.

sorry but i stopped replying to karthic sri in the middle of the discussion coz i didnt find a sense in his arguments in this thread.

just one thing :
our society needs to change its mentality be it the victim mentality or sense of superiority over the other.

we dont need a continuously degenerating society but a constructive one.

thanks

what i am saying is we Had it in kerala but NOW we we don't have it in a big way because we reformed ourselves but in other parts of india the intensity is still higher.
now we don't give cast reservation to justify or carry on the cast system but to recognise the reality on ground.

 

[LaBong]

This should not be taken lightly.. Instead of eliminating evil they have started nurturing it.. If it will not be opposed then other states will start doing the same..

I think Andhra already have reservation for Muslims in place.

 

[EjazR]

Again it is still an assumption on the part of you that Muslims , even in WB were discriminated from being given govt. jobs by the other communities.

The SC/ST were explicitly discriminated against and they are documented. In the case of the Muslims , in WB ??

You have SC and ST Muslims also why discrimination on the basis of religion for SC Muslims and Christians.

The Sachar report shows that there is some systemic issue of representation is jobs and govt.
This has to be corrected on different levels. And one of them is affirmative action by the state

They lagged behind because of their very late adoption of education which the other communities had adopted much earlier.

So if any reservation is give, let it be given in educational institutions where the Muslims can study and let them compete to the jobs like others.

I oppose reservation being given directly in jobs, just because someone is a Muslim.

So the govt. should do nothing to correct the imbalance. And please try to understand that its not just for being muslim.
Its backward caste + economic criteria. So its only for poor muslims from OBC category. So even poor pathans or poor mughals will not benefit from this scheme

Is this NOT minority appeasement for the sake of votes ?? Where did this suddden love of Muslims come from ?? All these 25 years they ruled Bengal but now when the election comes and signals are explicitly anti-Left they come with this.

It is no communities fault that Muslims despite being 30 % lag behind in representation in Govt jobs.

They missed the 'education' train and just now recently have started boarding it.Let them study and let them compete with others for the jobs.

Lets correct this perception that Muslims don't want education and they want to go to madrassas e.t.c.. As the sachar report shows, less 3% muslim kids go to madrassas. And that is also because they have no schools in their area. Otherwise no Muslim family poor or rich would oppose education. I really don't understand where this "myth" of muslims don't want education comes from.

Its one of the duties of the govt. to provide education and employment to its citizens. For 60 years, the left govt. basically had an easy run and didn't look after education and empolyment of 30% of its citizens. Now that they want to correct this anamoly, why is there so much

Again in W. Bengal, the proposal has a socio-economic criteria for the reservation, only poor muslims and OBC categories are being notified. And lets not forget that for 60 years SC/ST/OBC reservations have benefited a large number of Hindus already. So obvioulsy the OBC muslims will have to play catchup to 60 year of affirmative action to Hindus who belonged to the same caste and class.

Like I said earlier, I am against all sorts of reservation except those based on socio-economic critiera to remain. In this case, socio-economic criteria is taken into account. So a rich OBN muslim will not be able to take benefit of this reservation.
But only when there is talk of uplifting poorer sections of the Muslim OBC or SCs, why does the BJP create so much hooplah? Why not put removal of all OBC reservations as in their manifesto. Even NDA ruled states like Bihar, Karnataka and Gujarat have it, can they even imagine to remove it from there?

By not providing an alternative way of uplifting poorer sections of ALL communities, BJP is not being reseanoable and playing an unnecessary polarising game.

And another point, Dalits of all religious communities in India including religions that don't recognise caste system like Sikhism and Buddhism can avail benefit of SC reservations except Christians and Muslims even though they suffer from the same social handicaps.

 

[LaBong]

Agreed --- but isn't one of the reasons for their conversion is to get off the caste system in Hinduism.

Things are pretty same for them, I think SC/ST are better off than lower spectrum of Muslims.

It only helps Internet people to score point.

My take on this issue - Political move to win the Muslim votes in the upcoming elections.

What needs to be done -

• if you are genuinely concerned about Muslims and their low representation encourage them to take up scientific education at the earliest.
• Ask them to get rid of their inflexible attitude regarding religion.
• As a further incentive give them few percent reservation in educational institutions till under-graduate to facilitate their education

No job-reservation directly till the above things are done.

Good suggestions, I think some of these are already implemented, will post later when free.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

@ejazr if it is for obc..then why not for all other obc rather than muslim obc category only ?

 

[KS]

You have SC and ST Muslims also why discrimination on the basis of religion for SC Muslims and Christians.

Because casteism isn't supposed to exist in Christianity and Islam.

The low caste hindus converted to Christianity and Islam to escape the caste persecution being Hindus.

The Sachar report shows that there is some systemic issue of representation is jobs and govt.
This has to be corrected on different levels. And one of them is affirmative action by the state

Sorry can you explain this bit a more clearly ?? You mean to say even eligible candidates from Muslim community get discriminated just because of their religion ??

So the govt. should do nothing to correct the imbalance. And please try to understand that its not just for being muslim.
Its backward caste + economic criteria. So its only for poor muslims from OBC category. So even poor pathans or poor mughals will not benefit from this scheme

Here dont you see the absurdity of this system ?? Poor not getting access to jobs.

That is what I wanted to say - They are not sincere in uplifting the Muslim community --- if they are sincere they would have abolished caste based reservations for all except STs and brought in reservations based on economic status only in which case even the poor pathans or poor mughals would/should have been benefitted.

I have absolutely no problem in that. But this present move which does not even cater to the poor in Muslims is just a shoddy excercise for votes.

Hope you get what I am trying to say.

Lets correct this perception that Muslims don't want education and they want to go to madrassas e.t.c.. As the sachar report shows, less 3% muslim kids go to madrassas. And that is also because they have no schools in their area. Otherwise no Muslim family poor or rich would oppose education. I really don't understand where this "myth" of muslims don't want education comes from.

Its one of the duties of the govt. to provide education and employment to its citizens. For 60 years, the left govt. basically had an easy run and didn't look after education and empolyment of 30% of its citizens. Now that they want to correct this anamoly, why is there so much

No where did I say Muslims send their children only to Madarsas.
What I am trying to say is that they (atleast many) become un-necessarily picky when choosing schools . They have a long list of demands - allowing hijab, should not be made to sing in praise of any other god (even if it is just a mere formality) etc.

Is this inflexible attitude really necessary ?? I studied in an Anglo Indian school. Does it today affect my religious pursuits ?? NO

They should understand that and choose schools based on their academics and not religion.

If the government is serious let it give free education to Muslims in schools and a portion reservation in UG instutions and make the
Muslims ready to get jobs on their own. That will be more beneficial than just giving them jobs.

Again in W. Bengal, the proposal has a socio-economic criteria for the reservation, only poor muslims and OBC categories are being notified. And lets not forget that for 60 years SC/ST/OBC reservations have benefited a large number of Hindus already. So obvioulsy the OBC muslims will have to play catchup to 60 year of affirmative action to Hindus who belonged to the same caste and class.

Like I said earlier, I am against all sorts of reservation except those based on socio-economic critiera to remain. In this case, socio-economic criteria is taken into account. So a rich OBN muslim will not be able to take benefit of this reservation.
But only when there is talk of uplifting poorer sections of the Muslim OBC or SCs, why does the BJP create so much hooplah? Why not put removal of all OBC reservations as in their manifesto. Even NDA ruled states like Bihar, Karnataka and Gujarat have it, can they even imagine to remove it from there?

By not providing an alternative way of uplifting poorer sections of ALL communities, BJP is not being reseanoable and playing an unnecessary polarising game.

Why faulting the BJP here ?? The system is introduced by the Left Govt. it is their responsibility to introduce the legislation in suich a way it does not affect other communities for what is not obviously their fault.

BJP has a fair point here - today the Muslims will ask, tomorrow the Christians then day after some other.
Add to this the already existing reservations, servicemen quota, Kashmiri quota,Handicapped quota,sports quota

So what will be left for the general category?

If someone is seriously interested in developing a community then it should start from the basic steps in doing it rather than jump to the very top - providing jobs.

Start from the basic social structure,primary education, secondary and graduate.

Ejaz, you think from a Muslim POV - but what abhout the opposite spectrum? Why should another community pay for what is not it's fault ? After all it is everyone to his own.

 

[KS]

Things are pretty same for them, I think SC/ST are better off than lower spectrum of Muslims.

It only helps Internet people to score point.

No ST are still languishing in absolute poverty and explicit discrimination in many places which the Muslims don't face just for being a Muslim.

Good suggestions, I think some of these are already implemented, will post later when free.

Ultimately the change should come from within - the government can only do as much as to encourage them. It is finally up to the Muslims to do things that will benefit them and their children in the long run without being always guided by the inflexible rules of religion.
Other communities must not be made to pay for no fault of theirs.

 

[Rig Vedic]

It is true that there are people from various castes and religions who are disadvantaged. They may be talented but may need help to nurture their talent.

But the any reservations must be based on rational criteria such as:

1. Income
2. Educational level of parents
3. Access to necessities such as decent housing, electricity, water supply.

If belonging to any particular caste or religion is taken as a criterion, it will only divide society.

It may be true that a greater proportion of certain castes and religions may qualify based on the rational criteria above. But the government itself should not recognize any caste or religion.

 

[MINK]

Post-graduate will take 25 years at least.

not necessarily. It can be done in 23 years.

who gonna provide roti-kapda-makan all those years?

They have to arrange these necessities on their own. Just like in many European countries offer free education up to university level.

Yes, you will say India is not rich. But we Indians loose billions of dollar each year due corruption, waste etc. Swiss banks are full with Indian black money which is estimated half trillion dollar. Making reservation on the basis of religion will make this already flawed SC/ST/OBC quota system even worse.

 

[LaBong]

No ST are still languishing in absolute poverty and explicit discrimination in many places which the Muslims don't face just for being a Muslim.

Yes ST are the worst off. Muslims do face discrimination. Specially in Bengal they have been treated pretty bad in past which fuelled the separate country movement once.

Ultimately the change should come from within - the government can only do as much as to encourage them. It is finally up to the Muslims to do things that will benefit them and their children in the long run without being always guided by the inflexible rules of religion.
Other communities must not be made to pay for no fault of theirs.

How can the change come from within when the government don't support those who can bring the change?

 

[LaBong]

People should remember, reservation is only for OBC category in Muslims. I know OBC in Muslims doesn't make sense, but they must have some criteria set.