Bharat Mama to Turn Aryan White by 2045

[Peshwa]

[

Why treat 2 similar questions differently?
Is ramayana a fairy tale?
Is person x talking to God y a fairy tale.
My answer to both is same, not abusing any religion or faith. In all I believe God is a good entity.

You are right. You didn't abuse any religion and I'm proud/happy that you have a respectful demeanor. and trust me I question every faith including the one I was born with.
The point is, you're questioning someone else's faith here.
We as Hindus and Indians are able to do it. Maybe the others don't have that luxury. So why bother with it.
You and I both know that both religions, no matter how faithful the saffron or green followers are, are at the end of the day created by man.

Anyways, I'm done preaching. Didn't mean to impose my thoughts on you. You're your own person and quite capable of making these decisions yourself.

 

[AshishDelhi]

Can you openly discuss lord vishnu in India and be critical of him ?

Point behind asking : there are some limitations in every religion , every society. I am not waiting for your answer because i know the answer. And it is a big NO.

Yes you can. But it depends from person to person. Just like for Muslims. It's just that in India, specially Hindus can talk openly whereas in Pakistan nobody can as there is blasphemy law. Again it is person dependent like few Hindus eat beef, few actually treat cows with utmost respect and care and few just see it as an attack on their religion.
Hinduism is old and incorporated fairy tales, customs, rituals, religious texts, caste system, etc with time. Unlike Islam, Hindus vary in their beliefs and customs. This helps in removing things like caste system which got deep rooted may be a 1000 year back.

 

[Peshwa]

Can you openly discuss lord vishnu in India and be critical of him ?

Point behind asking : there are some limitations in every religion , every society. I am not waitin for your answer because i know the answer. And it is a big NO.

YES!
As a matter of fact we can.
No penalty on discussing any religion or gods. We do not have any blasphemy laws.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

@RealNapster

Ramayana and Mahabharata are both products of the immediate post-Buddha Age (400 BC onwards) Tales of magical, supernatural feats, ridiculously long human longevity are peppered through out the story to make Brahamanic/Vedic/Hindu personalities look better and more capable than Buddha, arahants and "coming" Bodhisattvas....In a society drenched in magical world view (even till now), being a skillful narrator of fantastic stories (either Brahmin guilds or Buddhist monasteries) means access to donations,riches and lordship of the mind of the people...............


but interestingly the farther back in time you go, the less supernatural the Brahmanic/Vedic scriptures become .....The Vedic Scriptures are quite explicit that achieving 100 years in age is a supreme feat and the one person among the Vedic Aryans who lived the longest, one Aitereya Mahidasa, managed to survive till the age of 116 years. The Chandogya Upanishad (one of the two Up. that are pre-Buddha) mentions that that the achievement of 116 years of longevity was extremely rare, and the said Brahmin priest achieved it after countless Yajnas...



As long as the Vedic Aryans were relatively unmixed, whiter, more caucasoid , their scriptures remained rooted in reality as much as possible...In Rig Veda there is almost no mention of supernatural,magical feats in the human realm....almost all mentions of supernatural feats happen in the realm of the Gods, except for may be Kesin Sukta and the Sukta mentioning the birth of Agastya (debatable)


The first few generations of Vedic Aryans probably looked more like Pamiri Tajiks than any Brahmin clan present in India or Pakistan

Vedic Aryans were part of a much larger Indo-European stream that conquered Eurasia....You cannot be a conqueror, if you donot have a firm grip on Reality..its just not possible...else you will think your magic powers will save you but you will ultimately be decimated by a people with much bigger contact patch with Reality.

Case to the point: Magic believing Druids being genocided by much more rational Roman legionnaires

The religion of the Rig Veda is based on cattle raids, conquests and warfare on chariots and not passive ways of inculcating magical powers such as sitting in meditation 14 hours a day for 14 years straight....if anything the earliest Vedic Aryans were slightly more rational than modern day Hindus

But as time went on both the Vedic Aryans and their scriptures were swamped by the magic believing pre-Aryan inhabitants of the subcontinent ................and now we have Brahmins who are just as much into a magical world view as the original aboriginals

The first people who started to question the veracity of all these fantastical tales were Bengali Hindu monks coming out during the thick of the Bengali Renaissance....Vivekananda pointed out that going by the evidence only Parikshit and Janmenjaya (sons and grand-sons of heroes of Mahabharata) can be considered historical, and the whole tale of Mahabharata is a grand lie invented by them

More importantly he said that religious figures, yogis,swamis,Babas have routinely lied in order to teach some "spiritual" or "moral" truths


Harvard Indologist Michael Witzel takes a more nuanced view, he says that Mahabharata (Mbh) is a mythologized version of the very real historical Battle of the Ten Kings (BoTK) which took place on the banks of the Ravi river....the Fictionalized account of BoTK was probably first narrated during the formation of the Kuru state whose first kings were Parikshit, Janmenjaya.......they may have wanted to make their ancestors the heroes of a fantastic battle in order to strengthen then legitimacy of their rule

the BoTK took place most probably around 1360 BC and the Kuru State was formed most probably around 1200 BC

ohh yess BoTK just featured normal men, normal bronze weapons, normal horses (kind of like Appaloosa variety) and it didnot feature supernormal weapons, magic, supramundane powers or suprahuman feats


@Brahmarshi

Sure Buddhism is better than the horrendous Pauranic Hinduism (Puranas) that runs amock all over India when it comes to rationality...but it still cannot hold a light to proto-Rational Indian Charvaka or full-blown post-Enlightenment European Rationalism


Buddhism is very close to pre-Buddhist Hinduism/Brahmanism in so far that it acknowledges that Consciousness precedes Matter, Consciousness creates Matter ...But it has a very subtle roundabout way of stating this which makes Buddhism extra-hard to debunk...but that doesnot necessarily make it true

Only Charvaka stated that the Brain generates Consciousness....whereas the Buddhist belief is more like the Brain is a transistor receiver of Consciousness (this notion has been thoroughly debunked in the NeuroScience blog theNess)

I think that's also the more rational position---I was nothing before I was born, I will be nothing after death...No rebirth, reincarnation,heaven.Hell,Purgatory,Bardo,existence as bodyless ghost etc....

Death is the ultimate Nirvana/Nibbanna



Since you talk of ancestors , I have a funny brain twister for you which troubles even the best of population scientists

Your parents are one generation removed from you ...so they are two in number = 2^1
your grand parents are 2 generations removed from you so they are four in number = 2^2

similarly the 40th generation removed from you you should have 2^40 ancestors OR (2^41-2^40)--which is the same thing


40 generations removed from you is around 1,000 years before
which effectively means that you had 1.1 trillion ancestors roaming on the Earth at the same time during 1000-1017 AD

That's not even possible!!!!! that each one of us had 1.1 trillion ancestors walking on Earth during the time of Ghazni ....world population at that time was 300 million....and the total amount of human beings who have ever walked the earth since the last 200,000 years is a mere 116 Billion

A lot of incest and polygamy must have gone on´!!!!! this is a question that goes out to all PDF ers..how do you account for this discrepancy?

This is why I have a simple rule of thumb of not bothering about ancestors beyond seven Generations


@Joe Shearer Please do correct me if my dating is wrong

 

[RealNapster]

You seem like a sensible person, so will caution that there is no need to justify the Hindu stance by pushing down another religion.
All Religions are man made and have an element of supernatural.
The point is, both religions require faith as the fundamental base to operate. their faith is theirs, and ours is ours. (hindu for me I suppose as I was born into a Hindu family).
Lets not get into a shit shoveling contest.

Yes you can. But it depends from person to person. Just like for Muslims. It's just that in India, specially Hindus can talk openly whereas in Pakistan nobody can as there is blasphemy law. Again it is person dependent like few Hindus eat beef, few actually treat cows with utmost respect and care and few just see it as an attack on their religion.
Hinduism is old and incorporated fairy tales, customs, rituals, religious texts, caste system, etc with time. Unlike Islam, Hindus vary in their beliefs and customs. This helps in removing things like caste system which got deep rooted may be a 1000 year back.

I read somewhere that it was ok in hindusm to marry more then one wife, slaughter cow (Hindu Gods/lords used to do so). And even the cast system was not that big matter. It all came in last 200-300 years with the Brahmins reforms. ??

Again. I am just asking to increase my knowledge about hinduism.

YES!
As a matter of fact we can.
No penalty on discussing any religion or gods. We do not have any blasphemy laws.

Yes. But then you have Cow laws (sometimes its only mob). Means both the societies are equally fcukedup.

 

[rishav]

Do all Hindu think of Ramayna as fairy tale ?

no not all but the younger generation does and that is good for india

 

[Peshwa]

I read somewhere that it was ok in hindusm to marry more then one wife, slaughter cow (Hindu Gods/lords used to do so). And even the cast system was not that big matter. It all came in last 200-300 years with the Brahmins reforms. ??

Again. I am just asking to increase my knowledge about hinduism.

Ill refrain from answering this. I'm Hindu purely in name, I believe in god, not religion. So I limit myself to spirituality than conforming to standards of religion. Ill let @Joe Shearer answer this as he has a better grasp on the history of the religion itself.

Yes. But then you have Cow laws (sometimes its only mob). Means both the societies are equally fcukedup.

Right of the bat, let me be clear that I'm not comparing societies nor is this a dick measuring contest. I simply answered your question regarding whether Vishnu can be discussed openely. The answer is yes. No law prevents Indians from debating religion. There would be no adverse consequences from the state. You may piss off the person you're speaking to depending on their "openness" to the subject, but that's a risk one faces when discussing politics and religion in general!

Now to clarify. The cow law is not a federal law and is limited to the discretion of the state. There is a no death penalty for it. There maybe jail time, but no death penalty.
Every incidence of violence related to "cow protection" is individuals or mobs taking the law into their own hand. They deserve punishment. Period!

Hope this answers your question.

 

[RealNapster]

@RealNapster

Ramayana and Mahabharata are both products of the immediate post-Buddha Age (400 BC onwards) Tales of magical, supernatural feats, ridiculously long human longevity are peppered through out the story to make Brahamanic/Vedic/Hindu personalities look better and more capable than Buddha, arahants and "coming" Bodhisattvas....In a society drenched in magical world view (even till now), being a skillful narrator of fantastic stories (either Brahmin guilds or Buddhist monasteries) means access to donations,riches and lordship of the mind of the people...............


but interestingly the farther back in time you go, the less supernatural the Brahmanic/Vedic scriptures become .....The Vedic Scriptures are quite explicit that achieving 100 years in age is a supreme feat and the one person among the Vedic Aryans who lived the longest, one Aitereya Mahidasa, managed to survive till the age of 116 years. The Chandogya Upanishad (one of the two Up. that are pre-Buddha) mentions that that the achievement of 116 years of longevity was extremely rare, and the said Brahmin priest achieved it after countless Yajnas...



As long as the Vedic Aryans were relatively unmixed, whiter, more caucasoid , their scriptures remained rooted in reality as much as possible...In Rig Veda there is almost no mention of supernatural,magical feats in the human realm....almost all mentions of supernatural feats happen in the realm of the Gods, except for may be Kesin Sukta and the Sukta mentioning the birth of Agastya (debatable)


The first few generations of Vedic Aryans probably looked more like Pamiri Tajiks than any Brahmin clan present in India or Pakistan

Vedic Aryans were part of a much larger Indo-European stream that conquered Eurasia....You cannot be a conqueror, if you donot have a firm grip on Reality..its just not possible...else you will think your magic powers will save you but you will ultimately be decimated by a people with much bigger contact patch with Reality.

Case to the point: Magic believing Druids being genocided by much more rational Roman legionnaires

The religion of the Rig Veda is based on cattle raids, conquests and warfare on chariots and not passive ways of inculcating magical powers such as sitting in meditation 14 hours a day for 14 years straight....if anything the earliest Vedic Aryans were slightly more rational than modern day Hindus

But as time went on both the Vedic Aryans and their scriptures were swamped by the magic believing pre-Aryan inhabitants of the subcontinent ................and now we have Brahmins who are just as much into a magical world view as the original aboriginals

The first people who started to question the veracity of all these fantastical tales were Bengali Hindu monks coming out during the thick of the Bengali Renaissance....Vivekananda pointed out that going by the evidence only Parikshit and Janmenjaya (sons and grand-sons of heroes of Mahabharata) can be considered historical, and the whole tale of Mahabharata is a grand lie invented by them

More importantly he said that religious figures, yogis,swamis,Babas have routinely lied in order to teach some "spiritual" or "moral" truths


Harvard Indologist Michael Witzel takes a more nuanced view, he says that Mahabharata (Mbh) is a mythologized version of the very real historical Battle of the Ten Kings (BoTK) which took place on the banks of the Ravi river....the Fictionalized account of BoTK was probably first narrated during the formation of the Kuru state whose first kings were Parikshit, Janmenjaya.......they may have wanted to make their ancestors the heroes of a fantastic battle in order to strengthen then legitimacy of their rule

the BoTK took place most probably around 1360 BC and the Kuru State was formed most probably around 1200 BC

ohh yess BoTK just featured normal men, normal bronze weapons, normal horses (kind of like Appaloosa variety) and it didnot feature supernormal weapons, magic, supramundane powers or suprahuman feats


@Brahmarshi

Sure Buddhism is better than the horrendous Pauranic Hinduism (Puranas) that runs amock all over India when it comes to rationality...but it still cannot hold a light to proto-Rational Indian Charvaka or full-blown post-Enlightenment European Rationalism


Buddhism is very close to pre-Buddhist Hinduism/Brahmanism in so far that it acknowledges that Consciousness precedes Matter, Consciousness creates Matter ...But it has a very subtle roundabout way of stating this which makes Buddhism extra-hard to debunk...but that doesnot necessarily make it true

Only Charvaka stated that the Brain generates Consciousness....whereas the Buddhist belief is more like the Brain is a transistor receiver of Consciousness (this notion has been thoroughly debunked in the NeuroScience blog theNess)

I think that's also the more rational position---I was nothing before I was born, I will be nothing after death...No rebirth, reincarnation,heaven.Hell,Purgatory,Bardo,existence as bodyless ghost etc....

Death is the ultimate Nirvana/Nibbanna



Since you talk of ancestors , I have a funny brain twister for you which troubles even the best of population scientists

Your parents are one generation removed from you ...so they are two in number = 2^1
your grand parents are 2 generations removed from you so they are four in number = 2^2

similarly the 40th generation removed from you you should have 2^40 ancestors OR (2^41-2^40)--which is the same thing


40 generations removed from you is around 1,000 years before
which effectively means that you had 1.1 trillion ancestors roaming on the Earth at the same time during 1000-1017 AD

That's not even possible!!!!! that each one of us had 1.1 trillion ancestors walking on Earth during the time of Ghazni ....world population at that time was 300 million....and the total amount of human beings who have ever walked the earth since the last 200,000 years is a mere 116 Billion

A lot of incest and polygamy must have gone on´!!!!! this is a question that goes out to all PDF ers..how do you account for this discrepancy?

This is why I have a simple rule of thumb of not bothering about ancestors beyond seven Generations


@Joe Shearer Please do correct me if my dating is wrong

I must say very informative post sir. Thank you very much for your detailed reply. So just like i assumed , the original hindu scripure treat evey character as a normal being except Gods. Its the later brahmans who tempered the history. Am i gettjng this right ?

no not all but the younger generation does and that is good for india

Thank you. Its always great to learn somethjng new about different cultures, religions.

 

[AshishDelhi]

I read somewhere that it was ok in hindusm to marry more then one wife, slaughter cow (Hindu Gods/lords used to do so). And even the cast system was not that big matter. It all came in last 200-300 years with the Brahmins reforms. ??

Again. I am just asking to increase my knowledge about hinduism.



Yes. But then you have Cow laws (sometimes its only mob). Means both the societies are equally fcukedup.

Unlike Islam where Quran specifies how a Muslim must act, there is no such thing in Hinduism. It evolved with time. All old societies allowed polygamy, Hinduism was no exception. Caste system would slowly fade away.
Cow love is a tricky question. For me it is a matter of economy, diet vs faith. It is a business or job or means to feed family for many whereas there are many who actually treat cow with respect and feel saddened if it is slaughtered. Don't know how to explain it. It's like dog lovers feel bad if Chinese eat dogs, similarly many Hindus who respect and care for cows feel bad if it slaughtered. Then add religious and political point scoring to this dilemma.

 

[Peshwa]

Unlike Islam where Quran specifies how a Muslim must act, there is no such thing in Hinduism. It evolved with time. All old societies allowed polygamy, Hinduism was no exception. Caste system would slowly fade away.
Cow love is a tricky question. For me it is a matter of economy, diet vs faith. It is a business or job or means to feed family for many whereas there are many who actually treat cow with respect and feel saddened if it is slaughtered. Don't know how to explain it. It's like dog lovers feel bad if Chinese eat dogs, similarly many Hindus who respect and care for cows feel bad if it slaughtered. Then add religious and political point scoring to this dilemma.

Post deserves a +1 rating.
Well put and summarizes the dilemma of many Indians.

 

[RealNapster]

Ill refrain from answering this. I'm Hindu purely in name, I believe in god, not religion. So I limit myself to spirituality than conforming to standards of religion. Ill let @Joe Shearer answer this as he has a better grasp on the history of the religion itself.

You have already helped me too much understanding the hindh religion. Thank you so much Sir

let me be clear that I'm not comparing societies nor is this a dick measuring contest. I simply answered your question regarding whether Vishnu can be discussed openely.

Not that we are in the mentioned contest. I just pointed out the miserable condition of both socities.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

I must say very informative post sir. Thank you very much for your detailed reply. So just like i assumed , the original hindu scripure treat evey character as a normal being except Gods. Its the later brahmans who tempered the history. Am i gettjng this right ?

You have to see the whole thing as a dichotomy of between Indo-European thought and pre-Indo-European magical Aboriginal thought

In India, Aboriginal thought won out and that's why we have magical epics of Ramayana and Mahabharata, magical Puranas, magical Buddhist Jataka tales, magical folklores of suprahuman God-like yogis

As the Pamiri Tajiki looking original Brahmins got more and more mixed with the local aboriginals, more and more they started believing in a supermagical worldview

In Europe ,Indo-European thought won out, which is why we have Greek Philosophy,Anaximander,Aristotle, Renaissance,Scientific Revolution,Enlightenment


The basic struggle is that between a magical worldview and rational worldview...And it seems Indo-Europeans bear the burden of spreading the light of rational world view to all the nooks and crannies of Earth

 

[rishav]

Thank you. Its always great to learn somethjng new about different cultures, religions.

there is no such instruction in hindu scriptures that prevent it's followers from criticising vishnu . Like hindus in college can joke about vishnu among their friends , but they won't do so if they are around parents , and certainly not if they are around gau rakshak types lol

 

[RealNapster]

Unlike Islam where Quran specifies how a Muslim must act, there is no such thing in Hinduism. It evolved with time. All old societies allowed polygamy, Hinduism was no exception. Caste system would slowly fade away.
Cow love is a tricky question. For me it is a matter of economy, diet vs faith. It is a business or job or means to feed family for many whereas there are many who actually treat cow with respect and feel saddened if it is slaughtered. Don't know how to explain it. It's like dog lovers feel bad if Chinese eat dogs, similarly many Hindus who respect and care for cows feel bad if it slaughtered. Then add religious and political point scoring to this dilemma.

That explains it all. And yes i agree that cow have more to do with politics and religious tola then religion. Thanks again

You have to see the whole thing as a dichotomy of between Indo-European thought and pre-Indo-European magical Aboriginal thought

In India, Aboriginal thought won out and that's why we have magical epics of Ramayana and Mahabharata, magical Puranas, magical Buddhist Jataka tales, magical folklores of suprahuman God-like yogis


In Europe ,Indo-European thought won out, which is why we have Greek Philosophy,Anaximander,Aristotle, Renaissance,Scientific Revolution,Enlightenment


The basic struggle is that between a magical worldview and rational worldview...And it seems Indo-Europeans bear the burden of spreading the light of rational world view to all the nooks and crannies of Earth

Now i can analyse related things in better way. Thankyou @Juggernaut_is_here .

there is no such instruction in hindu scriptures that prevent it's followers from criticising vishnu . Like hindus in college can joke about vishnu among their friends , but they won't do so if they are around parents , and certainly not if they are around gau rakshak types lol

You better watchout .

 

[Jackdaws]

Good satire. India faces many challenges. One can't wish away history or only look at it from one perspective. No one is objective anymore - especially with daft social media only reinforcing prejudices and beliefs.