Beautiful Post : Kashmir - SarthakGanguly's Logical Comment

[Armstrong]

Everyone knows of kasshmir's strategic importance.You need to accept that your footing on the Kashmir issue is weak, which is why after every few years your come up with military solutions to the mater making the ice beneath our feet thinner than before. Taking a hard line on matters where you are in a weaker position doesn’t make matters better for you but only display your weakness and lack of options.

Our footing on the Kashmir Issue is principled; your hypocrisy on the Kashmir Issue accompanied in no small part by your ill will to resolve the issue is the only stumbling block !

If you people had an iota of respect for the ideals that you cry yourselves hoarse over you would've given the Kashmiri's the Right to decide their own fate as Mr.Nehru promised them irrespective of the UN Resolutions or anything that Pakistan does or does not say !

 

[Levina]

Furthermore had I believed that AJK was occupied territory....I would not be arguing Pakistan's case here.

Your ego stops you from accepting the truth.
How azad is your Azad kasmir lil bro??
India has respected Kashmir's age old practice of not allowing outsiders to settle down in the valley.We(non kashmiris) can still not open new businesses and buy properties in kashmir.Infact a kashmiri gal who gets married to a non kashmiri loses her kashmiri status.
But what has Pakistan done to its part of kashmir?Pakistan has allowed over 28000 Afghan families to settle down and fleece the local populace in the name of Jihad. Who doesn't know that the Afghans are even more exploitative than the so called hindutvawadis ??
I've also heard that the Mangla dam produces about 65% of the electricity needs of Pakistan but the so called Azad Kashmir does not get any royalty. Pakistan's Water and Power Development Agency is earning in crores from the electricity produced at Mangla while the total budget of the Azad Kashmir is mere peanuts.True?
why dont you accept the fact that the northern areas are occupied by your army?
Didnt some high court judge say it few years back that the area was a part of kashmir and has been illegally occupied by PA??
India holds free and fair elections in the valley every 5 years while the Pakistani Establishment has dismissed and installed governments of `Azad Kashmir' at will.
Good morning!! wake up and smell the coffee.

The Kashmiris & the Land go hand in hand just as British Indians & British India went hand-in-hand; asking the Kashmiris to move from their lands is as moronic & hypocritical as asking British Indians to move elsewhere when they asked for their Right to decide their futures.

Lol
Let me tell you that you 're in no position to assert our claim on the area because of your weak diplomatic position on the global arena. All the pro Kashmir chest pounding in Pakistan needs to be stopped for the foreseeable future.
Has it ever crossed your mind that ...would the average Kashmiri want to be a part of an economically vibrant..diverse and secular India or Pakistan as it is now? - a million dollar question.

Why would we agree to make the LOC an international border when we consider the lands on the otherside as Occupied Territory....?

There's a reason why Pakistan would never accept LOC as international border...pakistan can never be satisfied with just a part of kashmir because “Kashmir is the source from where all of Pakistan’s water resources originate. If Pakistan loses its battle with India, it will become a desert.” -Syed Salahuddin

If we go by Zafarullah Khan's statement, this is the crux of the matter, precisely. All the other talks of liberty, independence etc etc are nothing but just croc tears. .

Ofcourse!!
Kashmir’s ‘locational’ relevance for India, China and Pakistan has always been significant.The land has been more significant than the ppl living there...thats a fact.
Kashmir proximity to Central Asian Republics ,the fact that its a source of strategically important rivers,its majestic mountains, a huge resource of forests, minerals, herbs and highly fertile arable lands.Yes Kashmir can become a successful military base for any emerging superpower...
wasn't Kashmir’s pivotal location the reason for generating conflict for the state during the Great Game played between Czarist Russia and Imperial Britain?? And with the passage of time only the actors have changed.

 

[scorpionx]

Ofcourse!!
Kashmir’s ‘locational’ relevance for India, China and Pakistan has always been significant.The land has been more significant than the ppl living there...thats a fact.
Kashmir proximity to Central Asian Republics ,the fact that its a source of strategically important rivers,its majestic mountains, a huge resource of forests, minerals, herbs and highly fertile arable lands.Yes Kashmir can become a successful military base for any emerging superpower...
wasn't Kashmir’s pivotal location the reason for generating conflict for the state during the Great Game played between Czarist Russia and Imperial Britain?? And with the passage of time only the actors have changed.

You actually nailed it. That was hell of an argument put by you!!!. When the first Japanese bomb fell on Vishakhapattanam and Congress was still divided over supporting the ally or not the British apprehended that India after Independence might fall into the hands of Soviets given Nehru was preaching Socialism and Communism right from the 30's and he despised the Americans. So it was utmost necessary for Britain to keep the key strategic region out of the reach of the Indians. So Pakistan got every possible support from its new ally.

 

[Armstrong]

Your ego stops you from accepting the truth.
How azad is your Azad kasmir lil bro??
India has respected Kashmir's age old practice of not allowing outsiders to settle down in the valley.We(non kashmiris) can still not open new businesses and buy properties in kashmir.Infact a kashmiri gal who gets married to a non kashmiri loses her kashmiri status.
But what has Pakistan done to its part of kashmir?Pakistan has allowed over 28000 Afghan families to settle down and fleece the local populace in the name of Jihad. Who doesn't know that the Afghans are even more exploitative than the so called hindutvawadis ??
I've also heard that the Mangla dam produces about 65% of the electricity needs of Pakistan but the so called Azad Kashmir does not get any royalty. Pakistan's Water and Power Development Agency is earning in crores from the electricity produced at Mangla while the total budget of the Azad Kashmir is mere peanuts.True?
why dont you accept the fact that the northern areas are occupied by your army?
Didnt some high court judge say it few years back that the area was a part of kashmir and has been illegally occupied by PA??
India holds free and fair elections in the valley every 5 years while the Pakistani Establishment has dismissed and installed governments of `Azad Kashmir' at will.
Good morning!! wake up and smell the coffee.

I'm a Kashmiri & I can't buy property in AJK or GB - I know that for a fact because I'm a Punjab Domicile Holder & not a AJK National...something that I can't become either !

Pakistan's Constitution grants free movement to every Pakistani or AJK National throughout the country which is precisely why many AJK Nationals are living in the rest of Pakistan while some Pakistanis are living in AJK because there is no hinderrance between movement whatsoever; getting GB Domicile or AJK Nationality on the other hand is out-of-the-question.

So far as the Mangla Dam is concerned - The royalty for dams in Pakistan is determined through some WAPDA policy hinged on either the reservoirs or the energy generation units being in a said Province or a Federating Unit which has already lead to inter-provincial issues cropping up which have been solved or are being solved in the Council of Common Interests; ironically enough Punjab doesn't get any royalty from Mangla Dam either despite the power houses of the dam being in Punjab.

The Northern Areas were the first to rebel under Major Brown of the Gilgit Scouts; additionally the people of GB & AJK form more than 10-11% of the Army despite being less than 3-4% of the population of the country.

The fairness & freeness of the elections held in Indian Occupied Kashmir is a joke that led to the '89 Insurgency to begin with.

While the Pakistani Establishment doesn't need to install any governments in AJK because AJK's foreign policy is controlled by Islamabad - they have complete internal autonomy; the Army usually controls Islamabad whenever it does that sort of thing !

Lol
Let me tell you that you 're in no position to assert our claim on the area because of your weak diplomatic position on the global arena. All the pro Kashmir chest pounding in Pakistan needs to be stopped for the foreseeable future.
Has it ever crossed your mind that ...would the average Kashmiri want to be a part of an economically vibrant..diverse and secular India or Pakistan as it is now? - a million dollar question.

There's a reason why Pakistan would never accept LOC as international border...pakistan can never be satisfied with just a part of kashmir because “Kashmir is the source from where all of Pakistan’s water resources originate. If Pakistan loses its battle with India, it will become a desert.” -Syed Salahuddin

Let the Kashmiris answer the million dollar question for themselves !

Ofcourse!!
Kashmir’s ‘locational’ relevance for India, China and Pakistan has always been significant.The land has been more significant than the ppl living there...thats a fact.
Kashmir proximity to Central Asian Republics ,the fact that its a source of strategically important rivers,its majestic mountains, a huge resource of forests, minerals, herbs and highly fertile arable lands.Yes Kashmir can become a successful military base for any emerging superpower...
wasn't Kashmir’s pivotal location the reason for generating conflict for the state during the Great Game played between Czarist Russia and Imperial Britain?? And with the passage of time only the actors have changed.

Kashmir holds no locational relevance for Pakistan because our interconnectivity with China is insured through the KKH & with Central Asia through Afghanistan or via China.

Kashmir has no natural resources to speak off barring water - which is indeed a very strong issue for us as a lower riparian but ironically enough had we been concerned about Kashmir primarily because India is blocking our water through it....we probably would've targeted Dams in Kashmir in either '65 or '71 but we didn't; you guys on the other hand took a crack at Mangla in '71.

So far as I know the Great Game revolved more around Warm Waters & Central Asia than Kashmir; at any rate entering India via Afghanistan is a much better alternative than going through the Wakhan Corridor into GB & then into Occupied Kashmir.

At any rate Kashmir's location doesn't take anything away from the argument of their Right to Self-Determination !

 

[punit]

Our footing on the Kashmir Issue is principled; your hypocrisy on the Kashmir Issue accompanied in no small part by your ill will to resolve the issue is the only stumbling block !

If you people had an iota of respect for the ideals that you cry yourselves hoarse over you would've given the Kashmiri's the Right to decide their own fate as Mr.Nehru promised them irrespective of the UN Resolutions or anything that Pakistan does or does not say !

Mr Nehru was an *** hole.

 

[scorpionx]

Mr Nehru was an *** hole.

And what about the person who was ready to give up Kashmir in return of Hyderabad?

 

[Armstrong]

Mr Nehru was an *** hole.

Respect the man who was instrumental in giving you your freedom !

 

[toxic_pus]

plz read clause I (i), addition to this

Kashmir is not a bilateral matter as India & Pakistan is in agreement that Kashmir is a dispute of International gravity in the form of UN resolutions.

Clause 1(i) refers to Chapert 1 of UN Charter. There is nothing more than that.
Clause 1(ii) takes the wind out of Pak's sail and makes it a bilateral issue.

And no, UN resolutions do not mean 'Kashmir is a dispute of International gravity'. The resolutions are essentially bilateral agreement to settle the finality of accession of Kashmir with reference to the opinion of people where UN will act as a mere referee.

Amusingly, these resolutions actually identify Pakistan as occupational entity. Not India.

Contrary to popular belief in Pakistan, legally India is standing on pretty solid ground as far as UN resolutions are concerned.

 

[punit]

And what about the person who was ready to give up Kashmir in return of Hyderabad?

who was that ? The Big J.

 

[scorpionx]

who was that ? The Big J.

Ha ha ha. My dear Punit, it was Sardar Patel.

 

[punit]

Ha ha ha. My dear Punit, it was Sardar Patel.

never heard of it. As per my knowledge Sardar was hellbent on retaining both Kashmir an Hyderabad. Can u provide a link or source?

 

[scorpionx]

never heard of it. As per my knowledge Sardar was hellbent on retaining both Kashmir an Hyderabad. Can u provide a link or source?

"A quarter century later, on November 27, 1972, the President of Pakistan, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, told a tribal jirga at Landikotal that India's first Home Minister and Minister for the States, Sardar Patel, had, at one stage, offered Kashmir to Pakistan in exchange for Junagadh and Hyderabad. But, he added, Pakistan "unfortunately" did not accept this offer with the result that it not only lost all the three native states but East Pakistan as well."

A tale of two states

Even Mountbatten's correspondence to Maharajah Hari Singh confirms this.

 

[Levina]

I'm a Kashmiri & I can't buy property in AJK or GB - I know that for a fact because I'm a Punjab Domicile Holder & not a AJK National...something that I can't become either !

Pakistan's Constitution grants free movement to every Pakistani or AJK National throughout the country which is precisely why many AJK Nationals are living in the rest of Pakistan while some Pakistanis are living in AJK because there is no hinderrance between movement whatsoever; getting GB Domicile or AJK Nationality on the other hand is out-of-the-question.

So far as the Mangla Dam is concerned - The royalty for dams in Pakistan is determined through some WAPDA policy hinged on either the reservoirs or the energy generation units being in a said Province or a Federating Unit which has already lead to inter-provincial issues cropping up which have been solved or are being solved in the Council of Common Interests; ironically enough Punjab doesn't get any royalty from Mangla Dam either despite the power houses of the dam being in Punjab.

The Northern Areas were the first to rebel under Major Brown of the Gilgit Scouts; additionally the people of GB & AJK form more than 10-11% of the Army despite being less than 3-4% of the population of the country.

The fairness & freeness of the elections held in Indian Occupied Kashmir is a joke that led to the '89 Insurgency to begin with.

While the Pakistani Establishment doesn't need to install any governments in AJK because AJK's foreign policy is controlled by Islamabad - they have complete internal autonomy; the Army usually controls Islamabad whenever it does that sort of thing !

tell me about it...
AFAIK Mr. Nawaz Sharif had once dismissed Mr. Mumtaz Rathore... detained him and installed Sardar Qayyoom in "azad" Kashmir. But then I guess Pakistan is habitual to military coups...election rigging..isnt it??
Pakistan has prevented the creation of an independent media in the territory through bureaucratic restrictions and coercion. Before 2005 the only radio allowed to operate was the Azad Kashmir Radio which was a subsidiary of Radio Pakistan.
Till the earthquake happened somewhere in 2005 the limited number of telephone landlines in the region were controlled by Special Communications Organization which is a functional unit of the Pakistani army.Only after the earthquake did the government allow private mobile phone companies to operate in Azad Kashmir when it was pointed out that the loss of life could have been lessened had people and rescue workers had this technology as they did in affected areas in NWFP.Ergo all means of communication was controlled by either PA or Pak govt.
In this unique case of “self-rule” under the constitution the elected representatives 've to comply to the Kashmir Council controlled by Islamabad.....The High Court and Supreme Court Judges can only be appointed by approval of the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs in Islamabad.....The Minister of Kashmir Affairs can dismiss the Prime Minister as can the Chief Secretary who is another Islamabad appointee. where's the self rule in it???

Let the Kashmiris answer the million dollar question for themselves !

Trust me india is doing a favor by not letting 'em answer this question.The day we do it Pakistan will have to hang its head in shame...write it down on stone.

 

[HRK]

Clause 1(i) refers to Chapert 1 of UN Charter. There is nothing more than that.

Only if you have read the UN charter (link is in your own post)

The Purposes of the United Nations are:

1. To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;

Clause 1(ii) takes the wind out of Pak's sail and makes it a bilateral issue.

I would advise you to read the said clause agin not just first line which says "or by any other mean mutually agreed (India and Pakistan both are in agreement with UN resolution regarding Kashmir) upon between them" additionally read Clause 4(ii) & Clause 6

if the situation is otherwise as you stated then prove it, otherwise its just another rant nothing els.

And no, UN resolutions do not mean 'Kashmir is a dispute of International gravity'. The resolutions are essentially bilateral agreement to settle the finality of accession of Kashmir with reference to the opinion of people where UN will act as a mere referee.

plz post any single document to support your claim, even Indian government till to date has not interpreted UN resolution this way ......

Amusingly, these resolutions actually identify Pakistan as occupational entity. Not India.

Contrary to popular belief in Pakistan, legally India is standing on pretty solid ground as far as UN resolutions are concerned.

Not even Indian government termed Pakistan as the aggressor in UN, again I would ask you to support your claim with the official document, or I should consider it as another Indian myth regarding Kashmir.

Khan Saab whats India's wishful thinking??
i think the easiest way to resolve the kashmir issue is by making LOC the international border.Why does Pakistan (amry) 've to indulge in nefarious activities?? Pakistan has been the aggressor in all 3 wars and the international community sided with India.You do know that India and Pakistan dont 've the wherewithal to continue a perpetual war in Kashmir.

- LOC as the International Border is not a solution,.
- Accusations without evidence are for the consumption of local Junta, I would not comment on this.

 

[punit]

"A quarter century later, on November 27, 1972, the President of Pakistan, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, told a tribal jirga at Landikotal that India's first Home Minister and Minister for the States, Sardar Patel, had, at one stage, offered Kashmir to Pakistan in exchange for Junagadh and Hyderabad. But, he added, Pakistan "unfortunately" did not accept this offer with the result that it not only lost all the three native states but East Pakistan as well."
A tale of two states

Even Mountbatten's correspondence to Maharajah Hari Singh confirms this.

FIRST ONE i wont treat it even as bullshit !! i have my doubts on the second source. but it may be possible that for Patel Hyderbad merger with India was more important that J&K. Specially when there was nothing much he can do about J&K due to direct interference form our Great Nehru.