Bars, Nightclubs, Lottery, Casinos, HorseRacing - Why can't we have those things?

[Nasr]

Many Pakistanis drink, dance and gamble often at underground parties. Why can't we have bars, nightclubs, lotteries, sportsbetting and casinos and tax the shit out of them for the national exchequer?

Why do we have this facade where everyone is wonderfully Muslim? In Defence, private parties are protected by the Police to keep unwelcome public out.

Why should pious and often hypocritical Muslims impose their pseudo-morality on others?

Pakistan used to have bars, ballrooms and was a fun place to be at one time.

In the west, lottery revenue is used to provide for students and elderly.

Turkey has all of these things. Why can't Pakistan have anything fun?

Sure, go ahead and have all the casinos, night clubs, bars, brothels and cocaine orgies all you want in Pakistan. A country, whose leader wants to establish Pakistan based on the model of Madinah, on the guidelines of our beloved Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wassallam. And you want night clubs, bars, brothels and casinos.

Just remember that when Pakistan abandons Islam for casinos/brothels/night-clubs/bars/cocaine-frenzy, then Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah shall abandon Pakistan.

Pakistan exists because of Islam, without Islam, there is no Pakistan. And if you really are so sure and mighty about yourself on this matter .... then do it yourself first, and see what happens to you. If you find yourself in quicksand, then it is due to what your choices are and if you are alright and nothing bad happens to you. Well then, that is the worst of all things. For when a Muslim deviates from Islam, he is confronted with tribulations. And if the Muslim grows closer to Allah as a result of the tribulation, then it is deemed as a "test" from Allah. However if a Muslim drifts further away from Allah, despite the tribulation and the latter continues. Then that is deemed as a punishment from Allah. But if you don't face any tribulations in your life, and all is well despite you committing every sin under the sun. Well then buddy, you are forsaken by Allah, and that my friend is worse than any hardship or punishment in this life.

So wake up and see the reality around you. Else you're just drifting in the wilderness, aimlessly and oblivious to you impending doom!!

 

[Longhorn]

no, gumnaam doesn't even know his own fate. but tell ya what...forget sunni, shia, hanafi, taliban, martian, what have you...

WHY NOT READ THE QURAN & STUDY THE SUNNAH OURSELVES!!! The aim is to "PROTECT" the society at large from the negative side effects of night clubs, alcohol, ballrooms, what have you. I'll say it AGAIN...the aim is to "PROTECT" the society from the negative side effects, not deal with the negative side effects. Its...as simple as that...but you CAN'T achieve that without convincing the masses on WHY did Allah make all these things punishable sins. Listen man...eating pork is ALSO haram...but guess what, there is no worldly punishment for it. Yet, consuming alcohol is JUST as haram AND carries a wordly punishment for it. WHY? Think about it? eating pork doesn't harm the society around you, it doesn't harm people around you...it's just you and your body, something you'll answer for in the hear after. But consuming alcohol DOES effect the society around you, it DOES harm the people around you...I don't think I need to explain how it harms the society & the people around you, pretty obvious. And hence, it is not only haram, it carries worldly punitive measures...

suffice it to say, the greater cause of the society's safety & security canNOT be put at risk for the demented preferences of the few.

We've had 1400 years to sort it out and we've failed miserably. What's more we are stuck in reverse gear.
The aim is to have a society that is just and caring and puts people first. We are more bothered about the method than the end result.
We are more bothered about imposing dogma than improving society.
The proof of the pudding is always in the eating.

 

[WaLeEdK2]

Pakistan isn’t magically going to get better with having all these things. People don’t move to the west because they have clubs and bars. They move their because they have good institutions which creates a sustainable environment in which business and investment can take place which creates jobs which equals wealth. A lot of African countries have bars, clubs and casinos but you don’t see people flocking there. Bars, casinos and clubs are just luxuries based off the hobbies and past times that the local people (majority white) like to do.

However, it seems as though western civilizations curtain is coming down on itself, economically especially. It had a good run but all things must come to and end.

 

[GumNaam]

Lets instill hatred for westernization says gumnaam from the comforts of the.... west!!!!! LMAO --> HYPOCRISY.

I invite you to show me where did I say install hated for westernization. I said install hatred for those sinful acts. The west has so many good things that you could've picked up like science, technology, civic sense & responsibility & etc. but all that you could pick up was night clubbing & alcohol? Seriously?

you have not spent much time in Karachi or any other major pak city have you? People drive drunk and stoned all the time mera bacha. meri zindagi. The world is not as ammi jaan described it.

So is that not even a bigger reason to instill hatred for these sinful acts? Your shooting your own argument in the foot here.

We've had 1400 years to sort it out and we've failed miserably. What's more we are stuck in reverse gear.
The aim is to have a society that is just and caring and puts people first. We are more bothered about the method than the end result.
We are more bothered about imposing dogma than improving society.
The proof of the pudding is always in the eating.

But that doesn't mean we give up & let a sinful lifestyle spread. That is all the more reason that we rethink our strategy & figure out where we have gone wrong.

 

[Yaseen1]

i think these are already present in Pakistan but work in unofficial manner

 

[SkyWolf]

if you want to advocate for creating jobs, why choose sex tourism as your first argument?

who said anything about that type of tourism. Why are all the conservatives so perverted?

 

[Longhorn]

I invite you to show me where did I say install hated for westernization. I said install hatred for those sinful acts. The west has so many good things that you could've picked up like science, technology, civic sense & responsibility & etc. but all that you could pick up was night clubbing & alcohol? Seriously?

So is that not even a bigger reason to instill hatred for these sinful acts? Your shooting your own argument in the foot here.

But that doesn't mean we give up & let a sinful lifestyle spread. That is all the more reason that we rethink our strategy & figure out where we have gone wrong.

You're beginning to get it, slowly.
If you read back my posts, all I have talked about is regulating these activities. I haven't advocated promoting them, but rather regulating them, i.e controlling them. I have advocated openness rather than underground criminality.
There has never been a society in existence that has managed to eradicate sin, so it must be controlled. For it to be controlled it has to be out in the open, a bit like a documented economy. Openness does not necessarily increase participation because religion, morals, ethics, education will still be a barrier and a discouragement.
Is there any less alcohol consumption, drug taking, prostitution now that it is underground than when it was legally accepted but socially shunned?
The truth is that those that are going to trade in it will, with the help of bribes, threats and coersion. In the process they are corrupting a whole layer of society with their illegality.
Similarly, those that are going to indulge in it will too, regardless of the legal status. Those that won't, won't. I could go out and get alcohol as easy as get a bottle of cola, the fact that I don't is because I find it is wrong, for me. I wouldn't start to drink just because it is readily available. Same with drugs or gambling.
So what changes?
What changes is that if it is legal and licenced, the authorities know where it is happening and who is carrying it out, it can therefore control the conditions under which it is being carried out, the operators don't have to pay bribes or do illegal favours because they are doing nothing wrong legally.
It is not a commentary on right or wrong, that is a personal judgement. It is just eliminating exploitation and criminality from an equation that has always and will always exist in every human society, and Islamic societies are no different.

 

[SkyWolf]

Pakistan is not an islamic state. However, I still think the evils of alcohol or prostitution outweigh the benefits (taxation is the only one really) by far. Gambling, and horse racing, as long as controlled so that vulnerable people don't get addicted, is ok in my book. Plenty of tax available.

This is the kind of discourse I was looking for. thank you.

You're beginning to get it, slowly.
If you read back my posts, all I have talked about is regulating these activities. I haven't advocated promoting them, but rather regulating them, i.e controlling them. I have advocated openness rather than underground criminality.
There has never been a society in existence that has managed to eradicate sin, so it must be controlled. For it to be controlled it has to be out in the open, a bit like a documented economy. Openness does not necessarily increase participation because religion, morals, ethics, education will still be a barrier and a discouragement.
Is there any less alcohol consumption, drug taking, prostitution now that it is underground than when it was legally accepted but socially shunned?
The truth is that those that are going to trade in it will, with the help of bribes, threats and coersion. In the process they are corrupting a whole layer of society with their illegality.
Similarly, those that are going to indulge in it will too, regardless of the legal status. Those that won't, won't. I could go out and get alcohol as easy as get a bottle of cola, the fact that I don't is because I find it is wrong, for me. I wouldn't start to drink just because it is readily available. Same with drugs or gambling.
So what changes?
What changes is that if it is legal and licenced, the authorities know where it is happening and who is carrying it out, it can therefore control the conditions under which it is being carried out, the operators don't have to pay bribes or do illegal favours because they are doing nothing wrong legally.
It is not a commentary on right or wrong, that is a personal judgement. It is just eliminating exploitation and criminality from an equation that has always and will always exist in every human society, and Islamic societies are no different.

absolutely beautifully spoken. every time i think about refraining from commenting on PDF due to angry mullahs types -- some other pak brother says something absolutely spectacular and elegant in its logic and reasoning.

 

[Longhorn]

i think these are already present in Pakistan but work in unofficial manner

Lol. You don't say?

 

[GumNaam]

You're beginning to get it, slowly.
If you read back my posts, all I have talked about is regulating these activities. I haven't advocated promoting them, but rather regulating them, i.e controlling them. I have advocated openness rather than underground criminality.
There has never been a society in existence that has managed to eradicate sin, so it must be controlled. For it to be controlled it has to be out in the open, a bit like a documented economy. Openness does not necessarily increase participation because religion, morals, ethics, education will still be a barrier and a discouragement.
Is there any less alcohol consumption, drug taking, prostitution now that it is underground than when it was legally accepted but socially shunned?
The truth is that those that are going to trade in it will, with the help of bribes, threats and coersion. In the process they are corrupting a whole layer of society with their illegality.
Similarly, those that are going to indulge in it will too, regardless of the legal status. Those that won't, won't. I could go out and get alcohol as easy as get a bottle of cola, the fact that I don't is because I find it is wrong, for me. I wouldn't start to drink just because it is readily available. Same with drugs or gambling.
So what changes?
What changes is that if it is legal and licenced, the authorities know where it is happening and who is carrying it out, it can therefore control the conditions under which it is being carried out, the operators don't have to pay bribes or do illegal favours because they are doing nothing wrong legally.
It is not a commentary on right or wrong, that is a personal judgement. It is just eliminating exploitation and criminality from an equation that has always and will always exist in every human society, and Islamic societies are no different.

And what I am advocating is instilling hatred for these activities in the hearts & minds of the masses...through education, through lectures, media, what have you. yes, there will always be the fringe element running after these things but at least we can win the hearts & minds of the masses. I mean, think about it...take alcohol for example...something that would at the very least, would harm your liver and at the very worst, would cause you to loose control while driving or shun your mind to where you can't tell the difference between your sister & your wife...something like that would not be very difficult to turn the masses against.

 

[SkyWolf]

You forgot to demand brothels too.

If you want brothels too you wont like the idea of strangers shagging your daughter for money.

Strawman Argument + Vulgar Insult = Superior Intellect

amirite?

And what I am advocating is instilling hatred for these activities in the hearts & minds of the masses...through education, through lectures, media, what have you. yes, there will always be the fringe element running after these things but at least we can win the hearts & minds of the masses. I mean, think about it...take alcohol for example...something that would at the very least, would harm your liver and at the very worst, would cause you to loose control while driving or shun your mind to where you can't tell the difference between your sister & your wife...something like that would not be very difficult to turn the masses against.

red wine i am told is good for you in moderation. The pakoras cooked in Doh number cooking oil not properly regulated by bribe-taking Pakistani health inspectors will give you throat cancer.

 

[Longhorn]

Strawman Argument + Vulgar Insult = Superior Intellect

amirite?

A guy I used to know had a saying, he used to say "you can't educate pork".
Never a truer word spoken.
It's time to check out, I think.

 

[GumNaam]

Strawman Argument + Vulgar Insult = Superior Intellect

amirite?



red wine i am told is good for you in moderation. The pakoras cooked in Doh number cooking oil not properly regulated by bribe-taking Pakistani health inspectors will give you throat cancer.

improperly prepared pakoras versus a properly prepared wine??? seriously? and yes, the "good for you" part from red wine can be substituted with green tea that has 10 times as much anti-oxidants compared to red wine.

 

[SkyWolf]

Sure, go ahead and have all the casinos, night clubs, bars, brothels and cocaine orgies all you want in Pakistan. A country, whose leader wants to establish Pakistan based on the model of Madinah, on the guidelines of our beloved Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wassallam. And you want night clubs, bars, brothels and casinos.

Just remember that when Pakistan abandons Islam for casinos/brothels/night-clubs/bars/cocaine-frenzy, then Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah shall abandon Pakistan.

Pakistan exists because of Islam, without Islam, there is no Pakistan. And if you really are so sure and mighty about yourself on this matter .... then do it yourself first, and see what happens to you. If you find yourself in quicksand, then it is due to what your choices are and if you are alright and nothing bad happens to you. Well then, that is the worst of all things. For when a Muslim deviates from Islam, he is confronted with tribulations. And if the Muslim grows closer to Allah as a result of the tribulation, then it is deemed as a "test" from Allah. However if a Muslim drifts further away from Allah, despite the tribulation and the latter continues. Then that is deemed as a punishment from Allah. But if you don't face any tribulations in your life, and all is well despite you committing every sin under the sun. Well then buddy, you are forsaken by Allah, and that my friend is worse than any hardship or punishment in this life.

So wake up and see the reality around you. Else you're just drifting in the wilderness, aimlessly and oblivious to you impending doom!!

Oh bus ker yaar. I already get these long boring lectures at home.

improperly prepared pakoras versus a properly prepared wine??? seriously? and yes, the "good for you" part from red wine can be substituted with green tea that has 10 times as much anti-oxidants compared to red wine.

I was trying to show you the irony between ... sigh... never mind. enjoy your green tea.

 

[GumNaam]

Oh bus ker yaar. I already get these long boring lectures at home.



I was trying to show you the irony between ... sigh... never mind. enjoy your green tea.

really dude? tell me something? I'm sure you must have a sister or a daughter or a son or a younger brother, SOMEONE you really care about...I ask you just a simple question...if he or she goes out with his or her friends, would you rather they go drinking lots of wine or lots of green tea?