Bangladesh Air Force

[Avicenna]

Not only is $3bn the baseline of what it'd take to modernize an air force, but for a country such as Bangladesh -- i.e. with good macro outlook -- it should be able to get a 10-15 year-term line-of-credit from Sweden to back the deal. It's doable.

This isn't about being a military state or not, the BAF has to reach a certain threshold of capability to meet minimum deterrence. IMO, with Myanmar and India, your air combat capabilities should be built on high availability, low service costs, comprehensive air and surface surveillance, and potent capability.

The Gripen + Erieye ER + Giraffe 4A/8A should do it, and even if it takes a $5 billion program spread across 20 years, it'd be worth it (outlay is $250 m a year).

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[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Easy to say that with hindsight but BAF kind of like needs a heavy fighter like SU-30 and that is likely the rational behind the YAK-130 purchase.

I don't buy the 'hindsight' argument. The BAF knew (with the MiG-29) exactly what the issues would be with flying Russian aircraft, i.e., low upfront cost, but heavily reliant on Russia for life-cycle maintenance and munitions. This was always an issue and it wasn't going to change with the Su-30, MiG-29M/M2, MiG-35 or Su-35.

At some point, planners just have to take a step back and examine other doctrines, not just jump into every single opportunity. Otherwise, you end up with a haphazard, sprawling approach.

@Avicenna what would be ironic though is that if the BAF went for Gripen and cast away Chinese and Russian planes, it'd return to its pre-1971 roots of flying Western fighters!

 

[UKBengali]

I don't buy the 'hindsight' argument. The BAF knew (with the MiG-29) exactly what the issues would be with flying Russian aircraft, i.e., low upfront cost, but heavily reliant on Russia for life-cycle maintenance and munitions. This was always an issue and it wasn't going to change with the Su-30, MiG-29M/M2, MiG-35 or Su-35.

At some point, planners just have to take a step back and examine other doctrines, not just jump into every single opportunity. Otherwise, you end up with a haphazard, sprawling approach.

@Avicenna what would be ironic though is that if the BAF went for Gripen and cast away Chinese and Russian planes, it'd return to its pre-1971 roots of flying Western fighters!

Actually there is no alternative for BAF but to go for SU-30 as a heavy fighter, than can fly out deep into the Bay of Bengal to deliver heavy ordnance such as bombs and missiles. BAF desperately wanted the SU-30SME as it can then assist BN if need be. US will not sell BD F-15E.

I agree with you that Gripen is actually the best option for BD in terms of capability and cost but not sure whether BAF top-brass would even be negotiating with anyone apart from Russia and China for new fighters. They seem to be the least competent and strategically minded out of the 3 branches of the military

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Actually there is no alternative for BAF but to go for SU-30 as a heavy fighter, than can fly out deep into the Bay of Bengal to deliver heavy ordnance such as bombs and missiles. BAF desperately wanted the SU-30SME as it can then assist BN if need be. US will not sell BD F-15E.

I agree with you that Gripen is actually the best option for BD in terms of capability and cost but not sure whether BAF top-brass would even be negotiating with anyone apart from Russia and China for new fighters. They seem to be the least competent and strategically minded out of the 3 branches of the military

The Su-30 is also costlier to maintain and probably has a longer turnaround time than the Gripen, i.e., lower ops availability. Unless the BAF is going emulate India and have a lot of Su-30s, it makes very little sense.

Besides, the Gripen can also deploy long-range missiles, such as the RBS-15Mk3 anti-ship missile, to keep threats out of BD's EEZ. However, to secure your maritime domain, the best approach is for the BAF and BN to collaborate; South Korean-built Type 209/1400 SSKs and RBS-15Mk3-equipped FACs can deter enemy ships, and the Gripen with BVRAAM can keep your skies clear.

 

[Michael Corleone]

allow the sale of Gripen to BD with US engine due to Rohingya issue.

rohynga issue isn't big enough to warrant sale of advanced military products to bangladesh... myanmar isn't threatening bd with war so this point is irrelevant. US would however be flexible to grant some access to their products should bangladesh take their sides in international policies

They shouldn't have gotten the Yak-130 at all. Just delay all purchases until the fighter is first selected, and then move from there. But now, you're on the hook for Yak-130s while having a number of other, but bigger, priorities.

i think a lot had to do with the financial situation and the plan that 2008 air chief had in mind.
fighter pilot number decreased to all time low after decade of ignorance... no fighters or trainers and so the yaks were bought to train new generation of fighter pilots... even then some they manage to crash two yaks from pilot error during breakoff... thankfully the first batch of pilot for a new squadron have passed (11) and will be among the first to fly the future new jet...
air chief and many senior fighter pilots are already certified in sukhoi fighters so i don't think there's any going back now

 

[Avicenna]

rohynga issue isn't big enough to warrant sale of advanced military products to bangladesh... myanmar isn't threatening bd with war so this point is irrelevant. US would however be flexible to grant some access to their products should bangladesh take their sides in international policies


i think a lot had to do with the financial situation and the plan that 2008 air chief had in mind.
fighter pilot number decreased to all time low after decade of ignorance... no fighters or trainers and so the yaks were bought to train new fighter pilots... even then some they manage to crash two yaks from pilot error during breakoff... thankfully the first batch of pilot for a new squadron have passed (11) and will be among the first to fly the future new jet...
air chief and many senior fighter pilots are already certified in sukhoi fighters so i don't think there's any going back now

Hi/low mix?

Su-30 and Gripen?

The way it seems if Bangladesh’s primary antagonist is Myanmar, I have serious doubts as to the Chinese as we have seen.

Although such a mix presents logistical problems of course.

Politically Bangladesh is in a pickle.

Though it’s not too late.

Please if any BAF guys are reading this.

Pursue the Gripen and get into the Western ecosystem.

This is a critical juncture for the BAF.

The wrong decisions here (I.e. short sighted ness) is gonna bite Bangladesh in the a33.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

rohynga issue isn't big enough to warrant sale of advanced military products to bangladesh... myanmar isn't threatening bd with war so this point is irrelevant. US would however be flexible to grant some access to their products should bangladesh take their sides in international policies


i think a lot had to do with the financial situation and the plan that 2008 air chief had in mind.
fighter pilot number decreased to all time low after decade of ignorance... no fighters or trainers and so the yaks were bought to train new generation of fighter pilots... even then some they manage to crash two yaks from pilot error during breakoff... thankfully the first batch of pilot for a new squadron have passed (11) and will be among the first to fly the future new jet...
air chief and many senior fighter pilots are already certified in sukhoi fighters so i don't think there's any going back now

The alternative was to take the approach of Indonesia and the Philippines -- i.e. the South Korean T-50. The big advantage of that trainer is that it uses the GE F404 (i.e., engine commonality with the Gripen) and that it has a light fighter variant (FA-50). That would have been a good starting point, even in lieu of fighters in the short-term (until a good long-term solution is found).

 

[UKBengali]

The Su-30 is also costlier to maintain and probably has a longer turnaround time than the Gripen, i.e., lower ops availability. Unless the BAF is going emulate India and have a lot of Su-30s, it makes very little sense.

Besides, the Gripen can also deploy long-range missiles, such as the RBS-15Mk3 anti-ship missile, to keep threats out of BD's EEZ. However, to secure your maritime domain, the best approach is for the BAF and BN to collaborate; South Korean-built Type 209/1400 SSKs and RBS-15Mk3-equipped FACs can deter enemy ships, and the Gripen with BVRAAM can keep your skies clear.

SU-30 and Gripen are two completely different types of aircraft. They have their own roles.

BAF can purchase both SU-30SME for heavy long range strike and Gripen as a light air-superiority fighter.

SU-30 in IAF has an availability of 50% which is not that good but this is the only game in town for a heavy long-ranged strike fighter. As well as helping out BD in Bay of Bengal with a massive missile/bomb load it can also be used if need be for deep strike into enemy territory.

Gripen and SU-30SME is the best combo for BAF going forward. BAF wants SU-30SME but no idea if it is trying to get Gripen.

rohynga issue isn't big enough to warrant sale of advanced military products to bangladesh... myanmar isn't threatening bd with war so this point is irrelevant. US would however be flexible to grant some access to their products should bangladesh take their sides in international policies

Dude, I am talking about US agreeing to release engine for Gripen sale to BD.
No one was talking about BD getting F-35 etc.

The alternative was to take the approach of Indonesia and the Philippines -- i.e. the South Korean T-50. The big advantage of that trainer is that it uses the GE F404 (i.e., engine commonality with the Gripen) and that it has a light fighter variant (FA-50). That would have been a good starting point, even in lieu of fighters in the short-term (until a good long-term solution is found).

The problem is the US components. It has both an US engine and US missiles such as sidewinder and AMRAAM.

If we are not sure of being able to get Gripen with just US engine, then there is less certainty over getting this jet that has more US components.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

SU-30 and Gripen are two completely different types of aircraft. They have their own roles.

BAF can purchase both SU-30SME for heavy long range strike and Gripen as a light air-superiority fighter.

SU-30 in IAF has an availability of 50% which is not that good but this is the only game in town for a heavy long-ranged strike fighter. As well as helping out BD in Bay of Bengal with a massive missile/bomb load it can also be used if need be for deep strike into enemy territory.

Gripen and SU-30SME is the best combo for BAF going forward. BAF wants SU-30SME but no idea if it is trying to get Gripen.

Honestly, forget about the 'hi/lo' combination. This is an outdated concept unless you need a specialist to carry out a few isolated roles, such as deep-strike. But unless you really need it, they're not that feasible.

Today, the key is to ensure that your mainstay fighter platform has modern subsystems, e.g., AESA radar, integrated EW/ECM suite, etc. Second, you can meet your long-range attack needs by getting the right munitions, e.g., AShM, SOW, ALCM, etc. As it stands, the Gripen fits the bill.

Going for the SU-30SME at this point would be burning resources. Basically a repeat of your MiG-29 saga, it should be avoided IMHO. If you need long-range attack assets, then invest in assembling your own cruise missiles.

The problem is the US components. It has both an US engine and US missiles such as sidewinder and AMRAAM.

If we are not sure of being able to get Gripen with just US engine, then there is less certainty over getting this jet that has more US components.

Unless you're planning to invade India, take US officials hostage, or have a clandestine nuclear weapons program (or all three), you don't need to worry about US sanctions on US components.

PS: for deep strike, you can acquire lots of cruise missiles today and use them as a stopgap until the KF-X or TF-X come alive, and in 10-15 years, select one of those.

 

[UKBengali]

Honestly, forget about the 'hi/lo' combination. This is an outdated concept. Today, the key is to ensure that your mainstay fighter platform has modern subsystems, e.g., AESA radar, integrated EW/ECM suite, etc. Second, you can meet whatever long-range attack needs you have by getting the right munitions, e.g., AShM, SOW, ALCM, etc. As it stands, the Gripen fits the bill. Going for the SU-30SME at this point would be burning resources.

This is the first time I have heard that the Gripen C/D is anything more than a short-legged light fighter. It simply cannot deliver a heavy bomb-load to far away targets like SU-30. Using missiles for long-range attacks means you deliver less load to target. Anyway Gripen C/D cannot carry nearly as much weight as SU-30. Gripen can carry a maximum of 5.3T whereas SU-30 can have 8T.

If you are talking about Gripen E then the picture is better as that can carry 7T.
With a single 290 gallon external tank, the Gripen E has a combat radius of 1300km compared to 1500Km for SU-30SME which only needs internal fuel. Range is a big killer in favour of Su-30SME here.
Su-30SME has 12 hardpoints as opposed to 10 for Gripen E.

BD economy is strong enough that it can buy both aircraft now and this is the thinking in BAF.

 

[ghost250]

This is the first time I have heard that the Gripen C/D is anything more than a short-legged light fighter. It simply cannot deliver a heavy bomb-load to far away targets like SU-30. Using missiles for long-range attacks means you deliver less load to target. Anyway Gripen C/D cannot carry nearly as much weight as SU-30. Gripen can carry a maximum of 5.3T whereas SU-30 can have 8T.

If you are talking about Gripen E then the picture is better as that can carry 7T.
With a single 290 gallon external tank, the Gripen E has a combat radius of 1300km compared to 1500Km for SU-30SME which only needs internal fuel. Range is a big killer in favour of Su-30SME here.
Su-30SME has 12 hardpoints as opposed to 10 for Gripen E.

BD economy is strong enough that it can buy both aircraft now and this is the thinking in BAF.

i dont think sukhois r coming..BAF chief mentioned about cost effective fighter..nd sukhois r not cost effective at all..all we can get now is mig-35..

 

[Michael Corleone]

The alternative was to take the approach of Indonesia and the Philippines -- i.e. the South Korean T-50. The big advantage of that trainer is that it uses the GE F404 (i.e., engine commonality with the Gripen) and that it has a light fighter variant (FA-50). That would have been a good starting point, even in lieu of fighters in the short-term (until a good long-term solution is found).

but then i've heard the current yaks are also used in ground strike roles... had we gone with T-50... we would have needed new missiles, pods, rockets etc

Dude, I am talking about US agreeing to release engine for Gripen sale to BD.
No one was talking about BD getting F-35 etc.

US ridiculed bangladesh's request for f-16 20 years ago because they thought such an "advanced" jet is not appropriate for us... heck forget about those, they hadn't even agreed to selling us c-130s engines, which resulted in one airframe sitting ducks for decade... if sourcing a legacy technology (turboprop) is so difficult, how do you reckon we source something like a turbofan engine?

 

[UKBengali]

US ridiculed bangladesh's request for f-16 20 years ago because they thought such an "advanced" jet is not appropriate for us... heck forget about those, they hadn't even agreed to selling us c-130s engines, which resulted in one airframe sitting ducks for decade... if sourcing a legacy technology (turboprop) is so difficult, how do you reckon we source something like a turbofan engine?

1996 is not the same as 2018.

In 1996, BD could not really afford to pay for 27 F-16s and the US was in a way doing BD a favour.
Now BD has a 300 US billion dollar economy growing at 8% a year. The Western media is now full of articles praising BD economy and it is no longer seen as the basket case like it was in the past

US is not even selling Gripen to BD but just not vetoing it. They have allowed the sale of Gripen to lots of other countries like S Africa that are not even considered US allies.

Anyway, no-one knows if the BAF are even actively considering the Gripen and so the whole speculation may all just be pointless.

 

[TopCat]

US ridiculed bangladesh's request for f-16 20 years ago because they thought such an "advanced" jet is not appropriate for us... heck forget about those, they hadn't even agreed to selling us c-130s engines, which resulted in one airframe sitting ducks for decade... if sourcing a legacy technology (turboprop) is so difficult, how do you reckon we source something like a turbofan engine?

May be the engine is a rarity these days, may be they dont want to spare those old engines as they might need them for their own aircraft in service. Sourcing from junk yard is not always easy. If they could sell C-130, there were no other reason for them to sell a engine for it.

USA congress will not allow a LDC country which lives on handout to spend billion in F-16. It was probably Lockheed or somebody from defense department wanted to initiate a sale on strategic ground.

 

[The Ronin]

But doesn't BAF have to buy a complete different European trainer if it selects Gripen? Beside the engine and weapon package is American. Don't think we will get the whole/half weapon even if we manage to get the fighter somehow. USA have been denying to give us fighter since 70s.

wait for the US T-X to materialize and get that as its LIFT.

USA will give their latest trainer to us?! As LIFT? When we can't even think about Super Tucano or T-50?! No freaking way!! Besides cost will be higher in the beginning, don't think it will decrease even later like other American fighters. And weapon package is still an issue. Read somewhere Philippine didn't get the full weapon package with their T-50.

there was no need IMO to get 16 (?) Yak-130;

They shouldn't have gotten the Yak-130 at all. Just delay all purchases until the fighter is first selected, and then move from there. But now, you're on the hook for Yak-130s while having a number of other, but bigger, priorities.

BAF probably have/had plan to induct more Su-30 and use some Yak-130 for ground attack to replace A-5. Don't forget those were procured under 1 billion Russian credit. And currently there's no better alternative than Russian fighter for maritime strike role.

We are already lagging behind in numbers and quality. You want us to delay more?

I don't understand why the LY80 is being procured.

Cheap, cheaper than fighters. Don't you think we are in dire need of MRSAM and multi layer air defense? Cause SHORADS and MANPADS can't do shit actually against fighter or some missiles.

Why not start with surveillance -- e.g., 3 Erieye ER AEW&C (with the Gripens)

BAF have plans to induct AEW&C, hoping for C-295. But this is not the priority now.

then proceed with the Umkhonto ER (30-35 km)

BN could've gotten it with Korean corvette but the Chinese Type-56 won the tender because they offered ToT.

Navy is acquiring vessels that are more-or-less similar in design

Such as?

Also, if the Phillipines can, so can Bangladesh.

The same also goes for Botswana.

Did Philippine choose Gripen yet?

Don't think Botswana still did either.

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...ns-for-botswana&catid=35:Aerospace&Itemid=107

Besides, the Gripen can also deploy long-range missiles, such as the RBS-15Mk3 anti-ship missile, to keep threats out of BD's EEZ. However, to secure your maritime domain, the best approach is for the BAF and BN to collaborate; South Korean-built Type 209/1400 SSKs and RBS-15Mk3-equipped FACs can deter enemy ships, and the Gripen with BVRAAM can keep your skies clear.

Jeez!! Looks like you are all in for Swedish chocolate. RBS-15Mk3 anti-ship missile was never on our military's radar, don't think it ever will be. They will stuck around Otomat, Exocet, Chinese and Russian missile.

FAC is a no go as BoB is getting rougher day by day. We are building larger and better Durjoy class LPC with C-704 missile and torpedo. BN can later modify them with better armament with longer range. The ASW version will patrol with Type-56 to reduce the workload.

Getting S.Korean Chang Bogo isn't a bad idea. BN has plan operate 6 sub by 2030. if we can manage to get 3 from Chinese/Russian (Amur/S-20) and 3 from Western (Chang Bogo/Type-212/214) possibly with ToT then we won't have to fully rely on one of them. If i am not wrong Indonesia got 3 Chang Bogo with ToT.

i dont think sukhois r coming..BAF chief mentioned about cost effective fighter..nd sukhois r not cost effective at all..all we can get now is mig-35..

What? Where did you get this?