What's new

Ballistic missile Nasr: A bigger threat from Pakistan

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sir, with due respect, Pakistan cannot dictate India on the response it should make after It has used a nuclear weapon (though tactical it may be) on Indian armed forces, killing few thousand soldiers. Foolish or not, India has made it's nuclear policy as transparent as it can be, maybe u'll agree that among the nuclear weapons state, Indian nuclear posture is the clearest without any scope of doubt arising out of it.

It has made ample clear that it will not be the first to use the nuclear weapons, but if India or Indian citizens or Indian forces are attacked by nuke weapons, than it reserves the right to retaliate (even if few 100s or 1000s are affected by it), now the scale of response will totally be an Indian call & Pakistan cannot say that since we were using a tactical weapon, India shouldn't use a strategic one.

Thats correct, Pakistan cannot. But saner minds can and will. :)

+ I want to make a larger point/a question, which was conveniently unanswered from my previous post on this thread, as to why the Pakistani Establishment threatening to use weapons such as Nasr on Indian forces on it's own land & rather not answering the queries of it's own citizens & pacifying them as to why they will become the biggest victim of such a weapon use by there own country?? As far as I know, no nuclear weapon state has said it so openly that using a nuke weapons on it's own territory & it's own citizens is among the many options it has contemplated.

Pakistani Establishment didn't threaten anyone nor made any statement of that kind. It is us fanboys who have probably assumed too much.

Might be the case for you guys, not for us. We would definitely go all-out in the scenario you mentioned.

Point taken. :)
 
.
Thats correct, Pakistan cannot. But saner minds can and will. :)

Expecting Saner minds from India will prevail when the other country acted Insanely?? Isn't it asking for TOO MUCH?? :)

Pakistani Establishment didn't threaten anyone nor made any statement of that kind. It is us fanboys who have probably assumed too much.

Officially - Yes, Pakistan has never claimed/threatened that, but anyone who has a little knowledge about Defence Related matters & do some research on this missile can easily understand what this missile is for.

Here is a quote from Ali Ahmed's The Diplomat article on the same (Ali Ahmed is Research Fellow at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses, New Delhi.):

Since this would trigger the Indian nuclear doctrine of assured retaliation, in uncertain ways, it’s not self-evident what Pakistan could achieve by this. It could, however, attempt to escape paying the price by choosing a ‘green-field’ option of a demonstration strike on its own territory, for instance, in the Cholistan desert.

Pakistan

I hope you don't count him as a FAN BOY :)

BTW, unofficially Pakistan has Indeed threatened the same by officially declaring it a 60 km range nuclear missile.
 
.
The obvious question was why did Pakistan test the NASR. The Pakistani establishment has provided its rationale which does not appear coherent. The first is the acquisition of miniaturisation technology. This technology would assist Pakistan in miniaturising their Cruise Missiles Babur and Raad for

submarine launches thereby moving on to second strike capability. The second is the TNW being a counter to India’s limited war doctrine. The adoption of a doctrine which envisages rapid attacks by India’s mechanised spearheads resulting in capture of sensitive shallow objectives would be effectively deterred by NASR. Pakistan proposes to use the TNW on Indian territory possibly at the areas of commencement of operations of Indian forces. This appears to be difficult as it entails usage of nuclear weapons prior to engagement by conventional forces.

Pakistan undertook nuclear tests in May 1998 and thereby emerged as an overt nuclear power, but it is yet to formally adopt a nuclear use doctrine. Accordingly one has to study the statements of Pakistani leaders as also its declaratory and operational postures to deduce the possible mode of usage of nuclear weapons. Mr Rao Sikandar, a previous Pakistan Defence Minister stated, “The country’s ultimate security lies in the use of atom bomb.” Broadly Pakistan wishes to maintain a credible nuclear deterrence vis a vis India. Pakistan sees the success of India’s Ballistic Missile Defence Programme and the Indo-US nuclear deal as issues which have compelled the authorities to enhance the number of war heads as also develop Cruise Missiles and TNWs which would not be intercepted by the Indian Ballistic Missile Defence. The second aspect is of Strategic Restraint. Pakistan has viewed this issue under the areas of reciprocal agreements with India on nuclear weaponisation.

The Pakistani views expressed above are emotional and lack logical application. There are two issues which emerge on the application of NASR, targeting Indian mechanised spear heads attacking Pakistan. At the strategic level it is using a nuclear weapon and as Air Chief Marshal (Retired) P V Naik has stated “Tactical or Strategic, it is a nuclear weapon. Our response would be absolutely violent, if it is used as per our existing policy. Accordingly it is not a game changer.”

It is of interest to note the timing when this weapon will be used. In case the weapon is to be used in non Pakistan territory it would imply usage of TNW on our forces while they are commencing the offensive. The targets in such case would be the areas where troops are concentrated or assembling in their process of under taking proactive operations. In such an eventuality usage of NASR frees India from the No First Use and gives us the liberty to use nuclear weapons. This option is unlikely due to the advantages it accrues to India. The next option is to use NASR once our forces are on the verge of capturing shallow objectives. In such an eventuality, due to close proximity of Indian and Pakistani forces casualties would occur on both sides and the weapons would be used on Pakistani soil causing radiation hazards which would continue for a long time apart from inviting retaliation. In either case the overall result does not favour Pakistan.

The introduction of NASR has certainly added a new dimension to the usage of nuclear weapons by Pakistan. In a way Pakistan is possibly imitating the NATO route during the Cold War. The concept was to use TNWs from the commencement of operations to block the Warsaw Pact offensive. The thought process had to be changed as it was prudent to reply with nuclear weapons instead of TNWs as they did not prevent escalation and it led to use of more destructive weapons as a matter of course. Similarly use of Nasr would lead to punitive retaliation which would be detrimental to Pakistani interests. It would be naive to presume that there would be no retaliation to usage of TNW.

Indian Strategic Studies: Impact of Pakistan's TNWs

1. Nasr is used on Indian formations on Indian territory it will be considered as a Nuclear war.
2. Nasr used against Indian formations on foreign land will again be considered as a Nuclear war.
 
. .
Expecting Saner minds from India will prevail when the other country acted Insanely?? Isn't it asking for TOO MUCH?? :)

On one side we have a tactical nuke having killed a few hundred soldiers on foreign territory, and on the other hand we have an all out nuclear strike of strategic level annihilating tens of millions of civilians.
None of these hypothetical actions is sane, but one is relatively saner than the other.

Officially - Yes, Pakistan has never claimed/threatened that, but anyone who has a little knowledge about Defence Related matters & do some research on this missile can easily understand what this missile is for.

Here is a quote from Ali Ahmed's The Diplomat article on the same (Ali Ahmed is Research Fellow at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses, New Delhi.):



Pakistan

I hope you don't count him as a FAN BOY :)

Thats quite a nice article, will reproduce it below and highlight all the points he has made :tup:

Pakistan’s Nuclear-Capable Missile


There appear to be four levels on which the system could operate: grand strategic, strategic, operational, and tactical. The reality is that there seems to be a contradiction in the implications of Nasr at these different levels, and how Pakistan resolves these contradictions will determine how it will eventually employ the weapon system.


Following are the Pros of Nasr at:

1. Grand-Strategic Level
At the grand strategic level, the idea seems to be to focus international attention on South Asia as a ‘nuclear flashpoint.’ The possibility of the use of nuclear weapons increases with the ‘use them or lose them’ connotations of tactical nuclear weapons (TNW). It’s expected that this would energise the international community toward crisis de-escalation and conflict termination, with the aim being to pressure Indian decision-makers and deprive them of autonomy in decision-making.
This scenario is quite favorable for Pakistan, and could prevent both adversaries from indulging into a lose-lose situation.


2. Strategic Level
At the strategic level, it has been rightly pointed out by Indian nuclear analysts that Nasr is an attempt at lowering, or rather projecting, a low nuclear threshold. The idea is to restrict the scope for India’s conventional operations. In the limited war logic, India doesn’t intend to flirt with Pakistan’s nuclear thresholds. In any event, keeping these low would help Pakistan preserve its territory and military forces to the extent possible.


3. Operational Level
At the operational level, the impact of Nasr is more psychological. The aim would be to slow down Indian offensive pincers by making them ‘button down’ for a battlefield that could potentially suddenly ‘go nuclear.’ The precautions, logistics load, and time cycle of standard operations procedures would slow and complicate operations. This would translate into increased combat friction, resulting in an increased leadership burden. There will be higher levels of vulnerability at bottleneck points, such as bridgeheads. Pakistan would then be able to counter thrust lines that it now can’t address due to the relative imbalance of forces – or if it’s surprised. Indian forces won’t be able to exploit opportunities with a sense of impunity, even those of pursuit. In fact, the more successful they get, the more the nuclear shadow of Nasr will loom large. The element of fear as well as surprise, and its disconcerting effect, will be exploited fully by Pakistan. India may therefore need additional forces to cater for various contingencies. This will have a corresponding effect on logistics, the pace of progress of operations, coordination, presenting potential targets, etc.
In other words, the Indian IBG assault could come to a halt, providing Pakistani forces the potential to counter it effectively.


4. Tactical Level
At the tactical level, the physical and psychological pressures of operating in a potential nuclear battlefield will add to the strain of combat. In hot weather, there would be increased physical attrition for troops, requiring earlier relief and time-consuming rotation in subunit/unit roles. the wider dispersion that nuclear tactics necessitate will increase command and control problems and the fog of war. Wide frontages increase the vulnerability to counter attack, since the freedom to concentrate would be with the counter attacker.


Following are the Cons of Nasr at:

1. Grand-Strategic Level
At the grand strategic level, attracting international attention to the region as a crisis point works both ways. As the Kargil conflict showed, India can profit from the situation and the onus on backing off could well be on Pakistan. Any propensity for first use may prompt the feared crackdown on its nuclear assets by the US-led international community, which would be to India’s advantage. This may convulse the Pakistan military into an internal battle over its assets, which would be especially untimely when faced with an Indian ‘threat.’ Pakistan will finally end up a nuclear pariah with a dysfunctional military, a state it has managed to avoid so far.
That is quite likely too, but the world would rather concentrate on diffusing the situation instead of further escalating the conflict.


2. Strategic Level
At the strategic level, by displaying its newfound capability, Pakistan has partially attempted to go down the NATO road during the Cold War. NATO planned to employ the tactical nuclear weapon route to counter the overwhelming mechanised attacks that were expected to be carried out by the Warsaw Pact forces. Using tactical nuclear weapons would destroy the very land being defended. The difference in Pakistan’s case would be in the limited numbers of such weapon systems and, secondly, on India’s self-restraint in pulling its conventional punches. As a result, the employment of Nasr won’t so much effect the military situation as signal the crossing of the nuclear threshold. Since this would trigger the Indian nuclear doctrine of assured retaliation, in uncertain ways, it’s not self-evident what Pakistan could achieve by this. It could, however, attempt to escape paying the price by choosing a ‘green-field’ option of a demonstration strike on its own territory, for instance, in the Cholistan desert.
Thats what the Indian members have been saying. The last line, depicting a "demonstration strike" also portrays a less violent and saner way of declaring that the nuclear flashpoint has arrived.


3. Operational Level
The operational level fallout of the use of Nasr will fall equally on Pakistani forces. The advantages that Pakistan seeks as a defender would be nullified in a violent, possibly nuclear, Indian response. (The former Chairman Chiefs of Staff Committee Air Chief Marshal P. V. Naik let on as much in his meeting with the press prior to leaving office.) The psychological, physical, and logistics load will be exponentially increased by the panic among civilian populations. This will be relatively greater in Pakistan since the theatre of operations, defined by proactive Indian offensives, will be inside Pakistan.
If ,by the fallout the author meant a radioactive one, then he is a bit wrong. Of course the friendly forces will be withdrawn before such an attack.
But if he means a proportionate counter-force response by India, then we have another possible scenario.


4. Tactical Level
At the tactical level, there are no empirical studies on the sociological impact of a nuclear battlefield. If combat cohesion breaks down, it will be as likely among Pakistani troops as Indian. The depth in terms of numbers available with India may help it compensate. This luxury isn’t available to Pakistan. The effect on the force multiplier that Pakistan intends using – irregulars – can only be expected to be negative. Since Pakistani civilians will be more affected, the ties of Pakistani soldiers to kith and kin may prove distracting. There’s no evidence of either side having thought through the leadership, bonding, and discipline issues on a nuclear battlefield – the emphasis has only been on personal protection at best, and that, too, is largely lip service for want of training equipment.
Here the author is massively under-estimating Pakistan's Military forces. Pakistani civilians will be least likely affected because of minimum fallout. And Pakistani forces are very much professional, we have demonstrated that in the past (not saying about the faulty leadership).
The last point is quite valid, but again, it will affect only the Indian troops (who would be the victims).


As can be seen, there are some operational level dividends that would accrue to Pakistan by using Nasr, though it will come at some strategic cost. Two possibilities emerge. The first is that the Pakistani military—more sensitive to military rather than political and strategic concerns—has perhaps focused excessively on the operational gains as against strategic costs. Alternatively, given the inescapably obvious costs that it will incur, the military is sensitive to the contradictions. It’s only milking Nasr as an information war opportunity.

The judgment here is in favour of the latter. Nasr can at best likely increase India’s natural restraint and operational caution. There’s no particular harm in this, for there’s little cause for nuclear haste, and any additional operational caution can only energise prior preparation. In its employment, the Nasr is unlikely to halt India in its tracks. Instead, it will likely be employed in nuclear signalling, the most likely manner of which could be in a demonstration strike.
...which is likely possible.

India can arrive at a prudent answer for the challenge this poses, both at the conventional and nuclear levels. What might such an answer be? Surely the employment of Nasr, even in a ‘green-field’ mode, would release India from its no first use constraints. This doesn’t imply default retaliation. Instead, it should prompt debate over whether manipulating the threat of nuclear attack will bring India more political and military dividends than indulging in nuclear action.
So the author concludes that it is not necessary that India will go for an all out strike in response, rather there would be a debate over it.
 
.
Now you are just being silly... :)

Have a look at how most of Indian and Pakistani forces arranged across the Border and the location of key strike corps, with the key thrust vectors thru Lahore and the desert.

Lahore main India ki chiri vi vit nahi maar sakti.

Don't worry about Lahore. IF you guys ever capture Lahore, baisti kar kar ke tum logon ko nikaal deinge.

Attacking Lahore would add 10 million more armed opponents for India.

Not likely, India will stick to its NFU policy no matter what.

Only one way to find out, let us capture Delhi for experiment's sake.
 
.
Lahore main India ki chiri vi vit nahi maar sakti.

Don't worry about Lahore. IF you guys ever capture Lahore, baisti kar kar ke tum logon ko nikaal deinge.

Attacking Lahore would add 10 million more armed opponents for India.



Only one way to find out, let us capture Delhi for experiment's sake.

If it's possible that is.....it's never an option and does not figure in India working out any strategy for such a scenario - what can happen is some missiles fired towards Delhi for which interception are being planned via a three tier BMD solution.
 
.
.
@illusion8 you are trolling @Awesome !

U are saying as if Delhi in unconquerable!?
:rofl:
DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIMES DELHI HAS BEEN CONQUERED!??
:rofl::coffee:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
Suicide Nuke Bombers may become a reality soon. :coffee:
 
. .
Suicide Nuke Bombers may become a reality soon. :coffee:

They simply cannot. If you have complete understanding of how nuclear weapons are secured, you'll come to know why.
However dirty bombs made from fissionable material obtained from the black market could be a remote possibility.
 
.
@illusion8 it is interesting to see you are anxiously waiting!
:rofl::rofl:
its just 65 years wait a little, girl! :rofl:
@illusion8 it is interesting to see you are anxiously waiting!
:rofl::rofl:
its just 65 years wait a little, girl! :rofl:
TC
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
Pakistan will never use 1 or 2 nukes against India first.

If we ever had to do it, it would be about 100 nukes fired at one time.

That would come under a full fledged nuke war, Nasr has become a game changer and we are trying to determine is the specific usage of it for which it is designed and it's ramifications.

Nasr being a battlefield nuke and reduces the nuclear threshold considerably - what is of importance here is how your opponent reacts to it. If you really need to fire 100's of nukes then why would you fire or develop a small battlefield nuke which will most likely be used on your own soil?

@illusion8 it is interesting to see you are anxiously waiting!
:rofl::rofl:
its just 65 years wait a little, girl! :rofl:
@illusion8 it is interesting to see you are anxiously waiting!
:rofl::rofl:
its just 65 years wait a little, girl! :rofl:


TC

I am not a girl Bro.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
That would come under a full fledged nuke war, Nasr has become a game changer and we are trying to determine is the specific usage of it for which it is designed and it's ramifications.

Nasr being a battlefield nuke and reduces the nuclear threshold considerably - what is of importance here is how your opponent reacts to it. If you really need to fire 100's of nukes then why would you fire or develop a small battlefield nuke which will most likely be used on your own soil?



I am not a girl Bro.

Nasr is a game changer how? Because some idiot writer with nothing to write about today, decided to put Nasr and Tactical nukes together?

Nasr is a shoot and scoot missile. Designed to be put on mobile launchers and harass Indian positions on the front lines. Yes it CAN carry nukes. It has a boot, you can put nukes or conventional warheads.

The point about firing 100 nukes (in which case they might be tactical nukes) would be to ensure there is no retaliation. With 100 nukes going off in India, its entire government, army, media, power, everything would be in disarray and hence a second strike of any remaining nuke may not be possible.

First of all, we don't want to use nukes, but if we will, it won't definitely be from a NASR, it would be an all out barrage.
 
.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom