ATAK for Pakistan army

[Path-Finder]

fantastic news, I was right in my assessment that TS1400 will power T129.

I hope the utility helo is considered as well (Gokbey) as the need for utility copter is quite high for Pakistan with law enforcement to disaster relief.

Can TS1400 be used in a tiltrotor application?

 

[merzifonlu]

fantastic news, I was right in my assessment that TS1400 will power T129.

I hope the utility helo is considered as well (Gokbey) as the need for utility copter is quite high for Pakistan with law enforcement to disaster relief.

Can TS1400 be used in a tiltrotor application?

In essence, tiltrotor technology is not about the engine. It is essentially a power transmission problem.

But before the tiltrotor application, projects in the 10-ton helicopter class need to be completed. For this, engines with 3000-4000 HP power must be manufactured. We still have a lot of work to do.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Much needed addition ATAK will be welcomed addition, as we have shortages of good gunships and platforms which can also airlift

> Need 40-50 Gunships
> 50-80 Airlift Choppers, we can't be using old chopper for Flood relief

 

[FuturePAF]

ATAK 2 doesn't even have a flying prototype yet.

Not exactly true. The Turkish ATAK 2 is based on the AW-249, which was recently began flight testing.

 

[merzifonlu]

Not exactly true

No, thats true.

We are not partners with Italians in Atak-2. We offered but they refused. That's why this helicopter you're talking about has nothing to do with ours. First of all, we will use a Ukrainian engine in the first versions of Atak-2, and if necessary, we will switch to a domestic engine later. Italians use US engines.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The Engine needs to be 100% Turkish or else I am afraid not ideal to get Ukrainian Engine as spares would be difficult to attain

No one is sure what will happen in Ukraine

 

[dBSPL]

ATAK-2 and AW-249 are almost completely different helicopters. Engine, transmission, flight avionics and interfaces, CMS and weapon systems etc. are completely different. Moreover, the design philosophy of helicopters are also different. While the Italians will focus on the logic of gaining an economical platform as much as possible with an MTOW below 17,000lb, SSB side focused on more heavy platform that will be directly in the class of AH-64 and KA-52 heavy armored attack helicopters, which will have over 24.000lb MTOW.

The other issue on the SSB side is about industrial ownership.

The ATAK-1 program was a project progressing in Italian AW partnership. This partnership agreement allowed the use of Turkish avionics on the platform, and customizations and improvments at the disposal of the SSB. In addition, the export rights of this platform were also on the Turkish side. However, it was basically a more advanced variant derived from the AW-129, although it had a lot of customization.

The ATAK-2 program, on the other hand, is a platform where experience and abilities gained from ATAK-1 are used, but its industrial rights are entirely owned by the SSB, so indigenous project.

*

Regarding the TS-1400, it is currently in the EASA certification process. TEI TS1400 is currently preparing for civil aviation and so fitted to a utility helicopter, aka GOKBEY. There is a certification process we call CS-E. You have to keep everything under control, from the diameter of the dust particles that will enter the engine, to the amount of ice that will form inside, to the amount of Nitrogen-Oxide that the engine will oscillate. For this reason, all of these subsystems go through a detailed and rigorous testing process. All of these processes continue according to certain standards and it takes a certain process to complete them.

TEI plans to sell this engine in significant quantities worldwide. Therefore, the preparation continues not only for the military field, but more predominantly for the civilian field.

For military purposes, IMO the engine is already ready. However, how long it will take to integrate this engine into the T-129, different dates can be speculated on this issue. If there is an urgent need, which is clear, Pakistan army could start to receive these variants in less than two years.

 

[rodeo]

ATAK-2 and AW-249 are almost completely different helicopters. Engine, transmission, flight avionics and interfaces, CMS and weapon systems etc. are completely different. Moreover, the design philosophy of helicopters are also different. While the Italians will focus on the logic of gaining an economical platform as much as possible with an MTOW below 17,000lb, SSB side focused on more heavy platform that will be directly in the class of AH-64 and KA-52 heavy armored attack helicopters, which will have over 24.000lb MTOW.

The other issue on the SSB side is about industrial ownership.

The ATAK-1 program was a project progressing in Italian AW partnership. This partnership agreement allowed the use of Turkish avionics on the platform, and customizations and improvments at the disposal of the SSB. In addition, the export rights of this platform were also on the Turkish side. However, it was basically a more advanced variant derived from the AW-129, although it had a lot of customization.

The ATAK-2 program, on the other hand, is a platform where experience and abilities gained from ATAK-1 are used, but its industrial rights are entirely owned by the SSB, so indigenous project.

*

Regarding the TS-1400, it is currently in the EASA certification process. TEI TS1400 is currently preparing for civil aviation and so fitted to a utility helicopter, aka GOKBEY. There is a certification process we call CS-E. You have to keep everything under control, from the diameter of the dust particles that will enter the engine, to the amount of ice that will form inside, to the amount of Nitrogen-Oxide that the engine will oscillate. For this reason, all of these subsystems go through a detailed and rigorous testing process. All of these processes continue according to certain standards and it takes a certain process to complete them.

TEI plans to sell this engine in significant quantities worldwide. Therefore, the preparation continues not only for the military field, but more predominantly for the civilian field.

For military purposes, IMO the engine is already ready. However, how long it will take to integrate this engine into the T-129, different dates can be speculated on this issue. If there is an urgent need, which is clear, Pakistan army could start to receive these variants in less than two years.

Can we equip T129 with TS1400 without any consent from Italians? And if the date of first delivery is 4 years away, why aren't we marketing T629 instead of ATAK? Why go through the trouble of upgrading ATAK when our license expires before the decade ends?

 

[merzifonlu]

Can we equip T129 with TS1400 without any consent from Italians? And if the date of first delivery is 4 years away, why aren't we marketing T629 instead of ATAK? Why go through the trouble of upgrading ATAK when our license expires before the decade ends?

I think so too. It requires the signing of a new contract with the Italians to integrate the TS-1400 engine and domestic transmission into the T129. How do we know that the Italians will agree to this?

IMO, if Pakistan does not insist on the T129 platform, the order will be held until 2026. Not the T129, but the T629 built entirely with domestic equipment will be sold to Pakistan.

 

[Path-Finder]

I think so too. It requires the signing of a new contract with the Italians to integrate the TS-1400 engine and domestic transmission into the T129. How do we know that the Italians will agree to this?

IMO, if Pakistan does not insist on the T129 platform, the order will be held until 2026. Not the T129, but the T629 built entirely with domestic equipment will be sold to Pakistan.

Maybe, in an ideal world where the engine is getting its civil aviation certification with its strict criteria. At the same time the engine could be tested in Pakistan to see if it can perform on par with the honeywell engine. because one of the things that made T129 win the trials was its ability to operate at high altitude.


in an ideal world ofcourse.

 

[merzifonlu]

Maybe, in an ideal world where the engine is getting its civil aviation certification with its strict criteria. At the same time the engine could be tested in Pakistan to see if it can perform on par with the honewell engine. because one of the things that made T129 win the trials was its ability to operate at high altitude.


in an ideal world ofcourse.

Rest assured, we are as insistent as you about working smoothly at high altitudes, dusty environments and hot weather. If the T629 performs below the T129 under these conditions, it will not enter production. We trust our engine and our transmission.

 

[Hold the door]

Enlighten me on this clarification.

We cannot install a Turkish engine on the ATAK helicopter, the permission of the Italians is required. They don't allow.

Lately the official authorities have not mentioned anything on the t629. Was it shelved?

 

[merzifonlu]

Enlighten me on this clarification.

We cannot install a Turkish engine on the ATAK helicopter, the permission of the Italians is required. They don't allow.

Lately the official authorities have not mentioned anything on the t629. Was it shelved?

Maybe the Italians will accept it, maybe they won't. We can't know this yet. As a matter of fact, in the T129, only the engine is made in the USA, but the transmission is made in Italy. If we accept that the transmission is made in Italy as before, maybe the Italians can approve. However, the integration process will be overhauled, Pakistan will test the helicopter again, etc. There will be a lot of work. IMO, deliveries can easily reach 2026 in this case too.

On the other hand, the T629 helicopter will be a "shirt-changed" and armed version of the Gökbey helicopter. Authorities do not need to specify this separately.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Maybe the Italians will accept it, maybe they won't. We can't know this yet. As a matter of fact, in the T129, only the engine is made in the USA, but the transmission is made in Italy. If we accept that the transmission is made in Italy as before, maybe the Italians can approve. However, the integration process will be overhauled, Pakistan will test the helicopter again, etc. There will be a lot of work. IMO, deliveries can easily reach 2026 in this case too.

On the other hand, the T629 helicopter will be a "shirt-changed" and armed version of the Gökbey helicopter. Authorities do not need to specify this separately.

Sounds like this 'indigenized' T129 could evolve into an original project. Definitely a big investment for Turkey. I wonder if the end goal here is to potentially push the T129's production to Pakistan via TAI Pakistan. So, basically, a subsidiary of TAI, but operating out of Pakistan (as a combined offset, ToT, etc, deal in return for a large unit order from the Pakistan Army).

 

[FuturePAF]

No, thats true.

We are not partners with Italians in Atak-2. We offered but they refused. That's why this helicopter you're talking about has nothing to do with ours. First of all, we will use a Ukrainian engine in the first versions of Atak-2, and if necessary, we will switch to a domestic engine later. Italians use US engines.

Ok, my mistake